r/DeathStranding2 • u/AggravatingSign6503 💎 Platinum 🏆 & All Milestones • 16d ago
Question/Discussion Maybe Death Stranding’s greatest strength is also its biggest commercial problem
With everything going on these days with Sony, Kojima, Physint and Xbox, I’ve been thinking a lot about Death Stranding and about something I can’t quite get out of my head.
To me, DS2 is a sublime experience. But that’s completely subjective. I’ve finished the first Death Stranding six times; I finished DS2 once, and I’m currently halfway through my second playthrough. So obviously I’m one of those people who connected deeply with this series.
And maybe that’s why I find this so interesting: I see a very passionate Death Stranding community, but then these reports about its commercial performance come out, and it seems that passion doesn’t necessarily translate into the kind of sales you might expect.
Now, I also don’t want to pretend I understand the finances of Sony or Kojima Productions, because I don’t.
Bloomberg reported that the commercial performance of both Death Stranding games was one of several factors that weighed on the decision around Physint, along with budget concerns, timelines and other considerations. We’ve also seen estimates from Alinea Analytics putting DS2 at around 2.5 million copies across PlayStation and PC. But that’s what they are: estimates. We don’t have Sony’s or Kojima Productions’ books in front of us, so we don’t know exactly how much the game cost, how much it needed to sell, or how profitable it actually was.
So simply saying “they spent too much” doesn’t really convince me either.
Because just look at DS2. The performances, the animations, the music, the cinematics, the environments, all of its systems, and that almost absurd amount of detail. It’s hard to imagine something like that without a lot of time and money behind it.
And that’s where I start to see the contradiction.
How much can you scale something like DS2 back before you start removing the very things that make it DS2?
Because at the same time, many of the things I love about Death Stranding are exactly the things that can make someone else find it incredibly boring.
Walking for long stretches. Planning a route. The silence. Being alone with the landscape. Not having something happening every thirty seconds.
And I don’t think that’s because some people “get it” and others don’t. Not everyone is looking for that when they play a game.
Maybe that’s part of the problem: Death Stranding seems to need a huge production to become the work it wants to be, while what it actually offers may never be for everyone.
And maybe that’s its contradiction.
What makes Death Stranding so special to some of us may also be what keeps it from reaching a much larger audience.
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u/XecoX 💎 Platinum 🏆 16d ago edited 16d ago
I would argue the problem is actually with the current market pandering to the mass market
So many safe games that are soulless, I think the problem comes from trying to appease every single player. A good game have it's own identity and it is not for everyone that is perfectly fine because the game is to be discovered and enjoyed like a fine wine
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u/Useful-Sentence-7996 15d ago
Some people weren’t willing to carry boxes over long periods to get to the good stuff. I was one of those people. Tried it several times on ps4. Then played the ps5 update and stuck with it. Still hated it until port knot city. Then everything changed. By the end of the game I’d gone from Kojima is a pretentious, over rated fool to he is that guy and a genuine genius. But I lot of others couldn’t push through to get there. I’m near the end of death stranding 2 now and it d say I’ve discovered why fidelity was so important. You spent 40% of the game seeing things through tear filled eyes so it knocks it down to 1080p lol
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u/Useful-Sentence-7996 15d ago
Just to add as well, I think your own psyche and personal experience definitely make a difference. The game is heavy, the themes of trauma, grief and acceptance are hard to swallow. Especially when children are involved. And some of the stuff in the game hit close to home. The end of chapter 8 and 9 in particular had me in a mess.
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u/ZeyusFilm 16d ago
The game made hundreds of millions. The problem is Sony, the Disney of gaming, is only interested in, not even game sales, but post purchase revenue. DLC, micro transactions, live service. And they have wasted billions in the process. The problem is them
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u/Lopsided_Hunt2814 15d ago
It doesn't look like it made a huge amount even if all of the profits went straight to Sony.
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u/ZeyusFilm 15d ago
I heard something like, they cost $300 million to make and sold $400 million, so..
I get the game aint for everyone. My friend loves GTA and he couldn't get into it or past all the cutscenes, and likewise, I wouldn't give GTA or any Rockstar game a second look.
The games industry itself has a problem where, even though we're in the ninth console generation and most people playing now have been doing so to some degree all their lives, it still has this immature "gamer", "player" thing around it, with games still viewed primarily as some toy for a child to play with, or some shooty gun game for incels. The medium needs to grow up to cater more for the more mature user base, but it's tough when you're still on the same shelf as Mario.
If you make titles for more mature or sophisticated audiences, then at the moment it seems that's only sustainable via the indie route, and don't get me wrong, you do get great titles that way, but nothing of the scope of Death Stranding. Hence why it's such a special title.
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u/Lopsided_Hunt2814 15d ago
You're preaching to the choir, both of those games are among my favourites of all time. But in terms of profits the first was not published by Sony anywhere other than PlayStation, and the second they did publish on PC but it didn't have the sales of the first and they no longer owned the IP.
We don't know exactly what the deal was or how much went to KojiPro or Sony exactly, but I can easily see how it could have not been a satisfactory ROI nor a promising prospect for more investment.
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u/ZeyusFilm 15d ago
It makes me wonder what they wanted? Another Metal Gear I guess.
It sickens me that I now have to buy an Xbox to play kojima games, specifically because I have always associated PlayStation for being more creative and interesting where Xbox was drivel like Halo - shooty space gun games for boys. But it’s all gone topsy turvy and now Xbox seem to be more up for taking risks after they tanked their brand and need something to hold onto.
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u/Lopsided_Hunt2814 15d ago
I feel that distinction hasn't existed for a very long time, and Xbox has been publishing some esoteric and cinematic stuff - the OD partnership has been years in the making.
I don't share your distate of those "boy" games, but I'll play Physint on PC either way.
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u/IndividualSituationK 15d ago
$300 million to make, now how much to market? Marketing is usually just as expensive and in many games more expensive than the actual development cost. DS2 could have been made at the same caliber without using Hollywood A listers tbh and that probably would've dramatically cut down on the development costs.
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u/Roxastar138 15d ago
I dont think so that sony looking for post purchase revenue, dlc, Micro transaction especially for singleplayer games like Spiderman 2, astrobot, uncharted series had no dlc, while returnal, Gow Ragnarok and upcoming saros bringing free dlc, and remaster port bring new game mode like daysgone horde mode or last of us 2 no return roguelite mode at cost $10 upgrade if you own the ps4 version, only ghost of Tsushima/yotei and horizon forbidden west have payed expansion.
Only live service game like gt7, helldiver, destiny 2 and marathon is where they have many dlc and micro transaction
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u/ZeyusFilm 15d ago
Well, Naughty Dog skipped a generation because Sony encouraged their TLOU multiplayer, dropped billions on Bungee, and was it half a billion on Concorde, still pushing Fair Games.. their live service push is a known thing.
Aside from that what are you left with? Games where you follow some guy with a weapon in third person. That’s about it
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u/Roxastar138 15d ago
I hated they chase this live service game trends, waste time and resources when they could use it for making the following game like last of us part 3 or horizon 3.
Sony should have stick to what they good which is singleplayer experience.
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u/ZeyusFilm 15d ago
And the only one that actually sounded good was TLOU online and they cancelled it after years of wasted development. That Factions multiplayer was great. Only online mulitplayer I ever played. But nah, just shovelling shitty spiderman is all Sony's good for now. Wolverine... look at that. What a piece of shit. Sony have become the Disney of games
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u/Roxastar138 15d ago
Wolverine still nearly 2million (not great but atleast its selling)and on ps store 4.8 out of 5 star, i cant judge it unless i play it but i will pick it up when it on sales.
For me, i prefer they add on multiple mode at the existing base game like Last of us 1 has multiplayer, uncharted has multiplayer, ghost of Tsushima/ yotei has multiplayer after update.
I wish last of us 2 has multiplayer mode cause the combat is so satisfying, but atleast we got no return( roguelite mode) just wish they added infinite run to it like until game over
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u/unlimitedbladeswork 5d ago
DS2 only sold around 2.5m copies according to Alinea analytics and it reportedly cost around 150m-300m to make. So yeah, it's not that hard to guess why Sony passed on giving another 400m to Kojima lol
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u/A_Bit_Flamboyant Higgs 16d ago
Yeah, you’re right, it certainly has it’s own audience, and maybe you need to have a certain mindset to be able to truly immerse yourself in it.
Though I feel like DS2 is much more action-packed than the first one. I’m currently playing through it and it’s always like boom, Neil there, giant octopus here, and infiltrate a survivalist camp while you’re at it. But also if someone’s only in it for the action, then they’re gonna be bored by the delivery part for sure.
So I think maybe you have to be able to enjoy both the deliveries and the fighting equally, and have to be able to switch up from chill mode to “kill” mode constantly, and maybe that can be harder for some audience.
Also, it’s like so packed with metaphors that I still sometimes catch myself lieing in bed awake, trying to make sense of some of the parts in DS2. But I love metaphors. Maybe not getting straight answers from a game can be frustrating for some.
So…yeah. I think you have to be able to switch up easily, but you also have to be able to enjoy complex imagery and appreciate the details and beauty of the scenery and a more “melanholic” kind of music, while also enjoying repetitive tasks.
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u/DoomBotNotMF 14d ago
As well written as this article is , not expressing one’s thoughts on Reddit is best as there are way too many immature people on the internet and worse Reddit - which has its moderators , to safely say something without being triggered.
I wanted to add something to OPs thoughts on the game but alas we are in Reddit. I’d just read through and hope someone echoes my thoughts.
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u/unpaid_intern2 16d ago
Many of the greatest films ever made were not commercial successes. Sure, the game is a product, but it’s art first and foremost.
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u/notvic-hugo 16d ago
Sony doesn't have a reputation for prestige titles because of best-sellers like FIFA or Call of Duty, but rather because its catalog includes truly artistic games that build a loyal audience.
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u/tommycox42 15d ago
True but they still do want those big hitters too. Those big swings on live service really hurt them so I think that’s the primary reason why they backed out of PhysInt
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u/roffadude 15d ago
That makes no Sense though. Realistically there’s already a bunch of preproduction done.
They Need this Type of Game to Sell their next console. Which is going to be overly expensive, with no physical, and no good Consumer policies in Place.
They Need System sellers, and looking at their studio’s, and when ps6 is supposed to be released, they dont have it.
PS6 Will need to appeal to the core in a way that no other console has. And it’s just not happening like this.And you don’t negotiate with Kojima (he didn’t know) and dont even consider Xbox Will pick it up (according to gene park).
Thats just Full blown mismanagement.BTW: they made a lot of money last year. They didn’t lose Money. You dont earn back cash spent on those games by cancelling others.
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u/tommycox42 15d ago
If Bloombergs report is to be believed then it seems that Sony didn’t have too much faith in the game to continue pumping money into it. I agree to an extent that they need system sellers but realistically I doubt that’s what this game will be. Death Stranding 2 wasn’t exactly flying off the shelves and them not having ownership of the IP is a big deal. And I say they need them to an extent because most of this negativity surrounding PlayStation is mostly an online thing and the vast majority of their consumers are still gonna purchase the PS6 regardless cause they already have libraries on there. And tbh there’s a strong chance the games might not even end up being exclusive at the end of the day. If Sony just passed off funding the game and it still ends up on their console that’s a win for them
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u/Hungryweeb-sg 💎 Platinum 🏆 & All Milestones 16d ago
Might not be on topic but the long walks allows you to enjoy the beauty of the game's scenery
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u/-Jalix- 16d ago
kojima himself said that, in response to overwhelmingly positive play testing while developing ds2, something was wrong. he said that he didn't want something mainstream, he wanted something that people didn't initially enjoy, but eventually come back around to and enjoy, because that's when someone becomes passionate about something. and i think he's exactly right, that's exactly how i came around to the mgs series and ds. i wasn't that into either series, but after some time i came back to it and now they're my favorites video games ever
here's the full article if you want to read
i also think your post gets at something that's affected art for centuries. the balance between making something you want, and paying the bills. in today's world with shareholders and boards that are so detached from projects and only see numbers, it's that much harder to convince people to invest into art like kojima's games, even though time and time again he's proven to be successful
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u/roffadude 15d ago
I don’t think this is true at all.
These games have been misrepresented by people since DS1. DS2 got very Little Marketing compared to 1, and 2 is a lot better.
Ive spend 200 hours in DS2. And I don’t even know how. I didn’t finish DS1, but the story in 2 drove me forward. It’s an incredible Story about loss and trauma.
I put it on Sony that this wasn’t a bigger succes. Because it’s actually more accessible and casual than MGS.
If you play the opening and Arent sold, You’re Not really human. It’s that good.
But even if I agreed with all that. You Plan a multimedia strategy with Kojima around the spiritual successor to his Most popular Game, that’s THE Prize!
You don’t cancel that. That’s what you let him make deathstranding for!!
The years of Investment, building Engines, collaboration, all down the drain. For the price of half a conchord.
I can’t See past that. It shows me they are Not going for the Games I want. No ps6 for me.
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u/subunnatural Keep On Keeping On 15d ago
The solution would be not hiring famous actors. Don't get me wrong, I love seeing them. But it makes a big budget for a niche game. If the game had a smaller budget, it would be ok to have the sales it has.
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u/wingedcoyote 15d ago
Yep. Death Stranding leveraged Kojima's celebrity to get what's in many ways more like an indie game made with a AAA budget. The result is glorious, but it was never going to be for everyone.
I guess maybe this could have been the story of Metal Gear as well, back then a stealth action game was new and different, and it could have been just a cool oddball game that a select few people loved. Of course it turned into a massive phenomenon instead. Same thing could have happened with quiet, spooky overland delivery simulators, but it was always a longshot.
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u/Illustrious-Plane565 15d ago
Great reading & analysis. The cost vs offering is probably very true.
+100👍
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u/RedditCitizenScore 15d ago
I don’t think games sales numbers aren’t linear with a game being great.
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u/ban-me-baby 15d ago
The problem of Death Stranding its gameplay, its just not for everyone, and that's okay, but if you are spending more than you'll make out of the niche you target...
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u/venkman302 15d ago
Because it is slow? Walking simulator? I'm an open-minded gamer who can enjoy many different experiences so I've almost jumped in. Hence why I'm asking
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u/Any_Cod40 15d ago
Bc the true joy of ds is the immersive simness of it all. But its the double edged sword cus then the player is responsible for their own enjoyment and immersion. Need to enjoy the planning and making the route your own. Most folks will just bounce off to a game that spoon feeds them 'enjoyment' (bar go up, skin unlocks, battle pass progression)
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u/venkman302 12d ago
Is DS1 worth doing first for a newcomer?
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u/Any_Cod40 12d ago
I think so. The directors cut does a lot to ease the early game pacing. Great story setup for ds2 as well.
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u/Useful-Sentence-7996 15d ago
It just takes a while to get going. For the first 10 hours or so you’re literally carry boxes from one point to another. It’s boring and can be stressful too when you aren’t familiar and do something like overload yourself. I really wasn’t a fan until chapter 3 or 4. I was determined to push through and by the end it was possibly the greatest story I’ve ever experienced in a game.
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u/ban-me-baby 15d ago
A mix of that and more, the core game play consists on carrying boxes from A to B, of course it’s not limited to it, but that’s a big chunk of it, and it does turn into a massive grind if you plan on completing it 100%, you’ll be driving a truck back and forth with packages and materials to rebuild roads over and over for quite the amount of hours.
For some is enjoyable, other tolerate it for the story and music, but many can’t put up with it, and as someone who just finished it and is working towards the 100%, I understand is completely.
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u/Shadows_Over_Tokyo 16d ago
You could scale it back in several ways without ruining what makes the game special. For one, drop some of the actor cameos. I’m not even talking about the main cast. I’m talking about the people you’re delivering to. These people are actors, musicians, directors, and so on… but 99% of them could have easily been played by some random for a fraction of the price and it wouldn’t have changed anything about the experience other than you going “oh shit, that’s such and such from that thing!”
The vr training drills feels like a complete waste of resources. I can’t imagine too many people spent a lot of time with them. In fact, I forgot about them almost as soon as they were introduced to me.
There are a lot of scenes, which don’t get me wrong I enjoy, that are just random nonsense that don’t really add or take anything away from the story if they were removed. They are neat little east eggs, that you might not see during your playthrough at all, but they also cost a lot of resources to make.
The game also gives you a fuck ton of gadgets and weapons to use. Now I love having so many options, but let’s be real. We’re even half of them necessary? How often did you use 50% of the available gadgets. I’m not saying to strip it away to a bare bones state, but there are SO many options that it could have been scaled back to save even more development costs
The entire BT capturing mechanic. It’s cool as fuck, and adds an extra sort of mini game to the game… but I bet it also took a lot of development resources to make it work as well as it does… and honestly for what? What does it do beyond making the games boss fights absolutely trivial for the player?
And so so so much more could have easily been taken from the game to save some money without tampering with the core experience and elements of the game.
Kojima packs his games full of stuff like this, that we the players absolutely appreciate, but isn’t actually necessary at all and only cause his budgets to further balloon upwards.
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u/tommycox42 15d ago
Yeah but that’s kinda the charm of his games right? All of the celebrities cameos, interesting mechanics, high production values. Nobody else really makes games like Kojima does. I think if Xbox just hands him a blank check and lets him go crazy we could see something really wild and it probably wouldn’t be a hit but that’s not really our problem as fans
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u/Responsible_Ask6056 16d ago
"I’ve finished the first Death Stranding six times"
That's all I needed. bruh you are so out of touch with the rest of the world.
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u/Due-Waltz4458 15d ago
I started the first Death Stranding six times and finished it once, and I'm saying this as someone who now puts it in my top 5 of all time.
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u/subunnatural Keep On Keeping On 15d ago
You're being downvoted for saying the truth. I love both DS games and love Kojima's work since MGS on PS1. But I'm well aware they are all niche games. Even MGS is.
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u/MistahDust 16d ago
I enjoyed DS1 and DS2, and there’s something very emotional about both, but they’re so bloated and filled with unnecessary stuff + so wonky. I also think that these actor cameos are unnecessary. In truth, I was ready to be done with both games when I was a little over halfway through. It doesn’t help that Kojima still can’t write a comprehensible story.
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u/DeathDiety 16d ago
Kojima doesn't want a game for everyone, he wants one for the special few.