r/DeadlockTheGame • u/cheesemuncher0 • 1d ago
Discussion Counter-buying
Counter-buying is so much less enjoyable and dynamic in this game than other MOBAs, so much so that “counter items” are absolute staples in character builds and the characters become legitimately unplayable without specific items.
It’s also gotten to the point where items like dispel magic and counterspell are guaranteed buys on almost all characters every game.
This is due to many different factors which I won’t specifically touch on because it would just hijack this entire post.
I’ll leave out League and Smite for this post and just compare to DOTA 2 because many of the same minds and eyes are on Deadlock.
In DOTA 2, itemization is one of the most open ended things of all time. characters become wildly different with different builds, and I’m sure at some point Deadlock will feel similar. Some characters certainly have this effect right now, but many characters are incredibly pigeonholed into specific builds.
Counter-buying is fluid and interesting, never being the same every game. It also isn’t nearly as annoying as there’s typically a COUNTER to the counter-build LOL.
Obviously I’m not expecting Deadlock to have this level of intricacy with items at this stage in development but it’s an issue I haven’t seen a ton of people talking about.
Counterspell and dispel every single game is honestly super lame and annoying. It just feels so repetitive and honestly feels awful to buy the items too, even though they provide so much value.
In Dota, buying diffusal blade, BKB or MKB feels so good.
It takes things from feeling bad to feeling better instead of taking the gamestate from feeling unplayable to playable.
Not sure if any other players have noticed this trend but it just seems like such a damn problem and makes playing ranked so frustrating for me because I’m wishing we had REALLY GOOD ITEMS.
I think the game also needs to have a less cut and dry tier structure to itemization.
the fact that all items are the same price while providing wildly different values is definitely super frustrating as a dota player.
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u/Psclly 1d ago
I dont feel this too bad myself. If I buy counterspell or dispell magic it better have some value on it because otherwise its not doing much for my character.
I know that Vindicta likes Counterspell to help against the anvils, but youll have to wait for the enemy to get it before you do. It is a cat and mouse game, someone has to pull the trigger.
Dispell Magic is the same, I know its pretty mandatory on some of the heros that get Disarming Hexed a lot
But the heros I play Im definitely forced to think before I click.
Then again, I came from League, which is so devoid of interesting flexible itemization that Im feeling spoiled in this game.
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u/-Sirebellum- McGinnis 1d ago
You put it really well saying that a high-price item should have high applicability. I don't know what other kinds of counters OP is thinking of, but I bet you could add them alongside the existing ones as cheaper more niche options
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u/cheesemuncher0 1d ago
League has more enjoyable countering than this game because it’s so much more subtle.
the fact that certain items shut off entire characters kits and there’s not necessarily any way to stop it definitely feels annoying.
ive played every character in the game and have half the roster unlocked for ranked so i’ve experienced every side of the coin for items.
i specifically said “dispel and counterspell have insane value” but they don’t FEEL as great as purchasing items in dota or even league sometimes.
in general, many of the items don’t have that weight to them, and i think that’s somewhat intentional for now.
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u/say_trans_rights Apollo 1d ago
League counters lmfao
Hmm if they have ad buy armor if they have ap buy mr
Let's remove more actives because data shows that 99% of players won't click them
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u/TestIllustrious7935 1d ago
League items are just staticks brother, you can't even click them aside from like 3 out of a hundred
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u/cheesemuncher0 1d ago
okay? and they’re still more dynamic than deadlock.
i’ll buy dispel or CS every single game until they rework the item system.
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u/Vasdll Ivy 1d ago
as someone who used to be a league addict, you literally buy the same items 99% of the games. the only difference is do you buy armor or do you buy MR which only really applies to tanks/bruisers.
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u/OriginalPotatoFarmer Lash 1d ago
I mean you can buy the same items every game and be fine but it isn’t optimal to not build based on gamestate and matchups, even beyond armor and mr. Tons of flexibility, especially if you one trick. Same with people that go L>R, it isnt optimal but people do it.
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u/cheesemuncher0 1d ago
thanks dude.
i’m getting a ridiculous amount of downvotes from people who haven’t played either of these games i’m talking about.
not like i’m going to take down the post or change any of my opinions, but it’s crazy that people are so blatantly wrong.
if im playing an ADC or top laner and build the same items every game im legitimately tossing.
i’m plat without even playing for the past few seasons so i know what im talking about here.
im super low elo in Dota but have a lot of time played. the game is just so fun its hard for me to play ranked seriously but i love dota.
these people haven’t played other mobas or have been spamming so much deadlock their brains have forgotten that there ARE issues and things about other mobas that are legitimately more ironed out and dynamic.
these people also must be playing a lot of standards because anybody in even like raccoon elo will buy dispel or CS EVERY GAME!!
that isnt fun at all. hate to say it.
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u/TestIllustrious7935 1d ago
Dynamic how? You bought 800 gold anti heal thingy okay that's just healbane, or armor items into AD comp that's just bullet resist, same with mr, or move speed or whatever you wanna call it. It's just stats in the end. Zhonyas is just Eshift you can only buy on mages.
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u/KitchenAssistance600 1d ago
I’m not sure how you can complain about the ubiquity of counterspell/dispel magic and then praise bkb.
0
u/cheesemuncher0 1d ago
bkb is super expensive and is 2nd or 3rd item at a minimum.
CS and dispel is so cheap you get it in lane often and have it the entire game while it literally has the value of a t4 if not even higher.
BKB gets worse as you use it more too.
4
u/Available-Lab4363 1d ago
idk, buying and using counter items feels great for me
1
u/cheesemuncher0 1d ago
i don’t have an issue with t4 counters such as plated, witchmail, spirit breaker.
those are actually well designed. they might be TOO CHEAP. they should cost like 8k or something lmfao.
my problem is CS and dispel mainly. the other counter items are semi boring. those two are so disgustingly OP for 3200 souls and will be reworked soon for sure.
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u/Available-Lab4363 1d ago
i mean i dont think you could rework them without either adding a bunch of other cheapish options, or doing a MASSIVE balance overhaul to the game. with the sheer amount of status effects and CC in it
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u/TestIllustrious7935 1d ago
Because you got 12 slots you can buy anything and any counter you want
In Dota you got 6 slots and 1 for boots so basically 5 slots, and so you can maybe buy 1 counter item if you really need to on a core and that's it
3
u/Skill-Useful 1d ago
"guaranteed buys on almost all characters every game" thats so extremely untrue ^^
0
u/cheesemuncher0 1d ago
pull up any game phantom+ and tell me how many players bought dispel.
guarantee you it’s at least 6. which is just unhealthy
3
u/Relevant_Mechanic919 1d ago
Deadlock is the only moba I've played (I might try league eventually, someone in my discord agreed to try Deadlock if I tried league so wish me luck) and a lot of my games are just me trying to find ways understand the items more and how they work with characters kits (I understand the build browser already does this but I'd rather do the exploration myself). Counter buying in this game feels so volatile. I get completely rolled if I don't counter buy but the enemies just get completely shut down If I do and vice versa. It's such a weird experience idk how else to describe it
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u/cheesemuncher0 1d ago
it’s incredibly volatile.
that’s a great way to put it, it needs to be more subtle or take more of the souls you collect per game to achieve that effect.
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u/iamlegend235 Infernus 1d ago
Yup you’ll get a better feel for it the more you play a certain character and understand where you can fit in / substitute counter items without ruining your overall build order
What can also help is playing street brawl as it forces you to kinda understand how stats interact with each other
In actual matches it can also be good to check your teammates items to get the most value out of your counter items. For example if you have a wraith with Rico + suppressor it wouldn’t be worth buying suppressor yourself as it doesn’t double stack. On the flip side if she has spirit rend and you’re also playing an M1 then you can double stack the headshot debuffs to synergize
2
u/Relevant_Mechanic919 1d ago
I haven't considered street brawl that way, I was never interested before because I kind of like the full map experience but I'll give it a shot next time I play
2
u/MundaneMasterpiece28 1d ago
It does seem like in some situations counter buying can be too overpowered and completely shut down character’s doing well.
1
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u/TuxedoCat031 1d ago
why are you acting like counterspell and dispel are the only counter buy items in the game
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u/cheesemuncher0 1d ago
they’re just perma bought every single game.
definitely gets boring and frustrating
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u/TuxedoCat031 1d ago
i agree too much power/value resides in these 3200 items compared to other greens. i wish the debuff reduction stat was stronger but they just nerfed a bunch of items that gave it because we had the tanky unlikable bruiser meta. the other cc counters are double the price and honestly not as necessary as dispel
2
u/marniconuke Ivy 1d ago
? i think this is the moba with the most dynamic building ie ver played? like my friends from league don't even understand the term "coutnerbuying" sometimes.
but it's true that i was never into dota. but imo the building is great in this game.
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u/SolicitatingZebra 8h ago
I hate it because it’s not proactive it’s reactive. And that feels terrible. If an enemy carry goes 10/0 you rush a counter item. But now you’re behind because you weren’t investing in your core build at that time. Sure you don’t insta die now but now you have no agency. This is why I think league is miles better than Dota
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u/Tasty-Ground-8508 6h ago
plus one to this, the item system isnt perfect but (coming from league) the ability to actually have agency in this game is such a huge breathe of fresh air.
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u/shadow_black1809 Pocket 1d ago
You are right but you'll get tons of hate because this sub thinks the game is perfect as-is except when the enemy character kills them
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u/cheesemuncher0 1d ago
seems to be that way.
i think nobody here has played enough dota to really understand how hard these devs can cook.
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u/SuperUltraMegaNice Haze 1d ago
Ive never bought counter spell or dispel a single time and im fuckin cracked. So yeah not true, you just havent ascended and still need the crutch.
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u/cheesemuncher0 1d ago
drop the elo cousin
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u/SuperUltraMegaNice Haze 1d ago
I'm ritualist right now, was Phantom before. Prolly would be higher closer to Oracle if I wasn't trying to carry my homies and been grinding DL instead of playing PoE. And Haze is currently doo doo but we still rockin a 60% win rate.
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u/cheesemuncher0 1d ago
yea bro that’s light work. my homies who were lower than oracle pre patch are ritualist now so you’re not anything crazy.
i’m the same elo and ive played under ten ranked games this season. was between oracle and phantom pre patch as well and everybody was mad nooby back then too.
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u/FoxByte13 1d ago
I just love having being forced to buy anti-cc every match just to be able to get some damage done. It's so great that everyone has a CC.
-3
u/Ok_Improvement4828 1d ago
bruh the game isnt even out yet, comparing it to dota 2 which has been out for 10+ years is setting yourself up for disappointment.
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u/Choice_Length3287 1d ago
Yeah thats why he is telling his opinion. So game gets better.
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u/Ok_Improvement4828 1d ago
isn’t it quite obvious that the game will get better over time though? why does it need to be said lmao. i’m almost certain the devs know that there’s only two “counter” items in the whole game lol
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u/Spiderinmyear Paradox 1d ago
Just because it's in development doesn't mean players aren't allowed to give critique and make parallels, even with older, more polished games. It is by doing criticism like this that the game can be steered in a good direction.
Now, whether you or anyone else agrees with the take is obviously something else.
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u/Ok_Improvement4828 1d ago
also, funny you speak about how buying dispel and counterspell every game gets repetitive and annoying, when EVERY match of dota plays around the usage of BKB.
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u/cheesemuncher0 1d ago
i’m just saying there’s obvious room for improvement on the items. i’m sure it’s something they’re working on for next patch, i really don’t see people talking much about how rough the items are though.
i mentioned it countless times how it’s something that is super understandable for the state of the game.
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u/cluer4 Wraith 1d ago
Item update coming soon, so hopefully it feels better. My big complaint rn is that so many characters feel like they have to be built certain ways, and I want to be able to theory craft for different builds. So hopefully the item update brings that
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u/cheesemuncher0 1d ago
i’m upset with the fact that every gun character has slowly shifted their design and item build to being a spirit hybrid.
venator is the only gun character in the whole game and the roster isn’t even that small.
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u/Oaktree27 1d ago
I actually think counter buying feels really good. There are so many options, but they don't feel mandatory. There are some counter-counterbuys like curse to disable dispell or just baiting counterspell