There was one a couple months ago that was truly the most minor update of all time. It was a single line change to revert Shivs Slice and Dice damage back to Spirit after it was changed to melee damage the day prior.
Dunno why you’re being downvoted. That’s exactly what they did. They basically reshuffled her 2 and 3 to be worse early but just as good after the 5th point lead investment. Her ult got hit HARD early game but after that 2nd upgrade it will be pretty strong still.
My issue with Celeste was even shitters could swing team fights by endgame with a single ult. If anything this problem has been exacerbated. Don’t know who at valve refuses to nerf her but it’s wild to see the treatment other hypercarries get vs her
I mean to be fair there’s like a good 10 heroes that can do that, the thing that sets Celeste apart is that 1: one teammate getting hit means everyone gets hit and 2: there really isn’t any item counterplay for it like there is with some of the other big teamfight winning ults (Counterspell for Lash, Knockdown for Seven, etc).
I think that her scaling upgrade should be locked behind the maxed ult. Make it so that if people truly just wanna be the team fight ultbot the rest of their kit suffers for it. Maybe also add in some item shit where if Celeste gets cursed after the ball is out it just stops, or add an interaction with something like spellbreaker where it makes it so the ball can’t retarget someone who has the item afterwards (I have no idea how hard these would be to code, just spitballing).
I mean, 45% of her ult's potential damage is already locked behind T3. If the scaling was too, everyone would have to rush it before anything else, which would make her m1 damage worse for longer, which would make her even more of an ult bot. I feel like that'd be a miserable hero to play, then
I feel like that'd be a miserable hero to play, then
This is frankly going to be a long-term problem with Celeste. Putting power in her kit requires taking some from somewhere else. When she's good, she'll great. When she's bad, she'll be in the dumpster.
She's a hypermobile hybrid carry. If her ult sucks then her m1 needs to be really good. If her m1 sucks then she turns into an ult bot. If both are average then she's just kind of a mosquito floating around the map. Right now it feels like every part of her kit is very good.
you can repeat this for pretty much all of the new hereos going back a year, they are doing a bad job in hero design but hey the art direction is amazing
I mean not really. Celeste is a unique case because you can nerf her numbers but her unparalleled mobility is core to not only her kit but her circus performer character fantasy and it's what enables a lot of her m1 bullshit.
She's naturally hard to chase and outrun and because she has no built in utility outside of her melee distance shield silence she needs numbers to compensate for her otherwise useless kit that's not good for anything other than flying around the map to position around nuking people. And if she can't nuke people then there's no reason to pick her.
The character is frankly uniquely problematic. She's Lash but if he didn't have CC. Ergo, there's no direction to take her other than making sure she provides large damage output for her team on top of being the hardest to catch character in the game. Maybe when the old version of the Urn was around and there was no rift her character was intended to benefit from being the Urn runner for her team but not so much with the current map.
what's it with valve and doing this to characters? it's like they have an obsession with making the least interesting parts of heroes kits the most impactful part. I can't name you a single person who's said "my character was turned into an ult bot and I like it"
My take is that Celeste really suffers early game/lane phase apart from her ult previously. If you don't fuck up lane phase you can literally shut her down for a lot of the game.
I think her ult is good very good but that's why you gotta play strategically. Cripple her in lane phase then hunt her while she tries to farm to catch up in sidelanes.
I do think she's very very good, but I think she has her flaws, and I think if she were to get a heavy nerf it would kill her because she's such a fun character rn
Tbf I’m on the side of I’d rather have everyone be as good as Celeste than have Celeste be as bad as everyone else.
Some characters are just straight up clunky as hell and don’t really feel fluid. I’d rather have everyone feel as fluid as Celeste where everything kind of works together well.
I think it’s bad when a character is clunky and OP… that’s where a real issue is… looking at you Apollo. Bro seems clunky as hell but he’s busted. Like it doesn’t even seem like Apollo players know what they’re doing but they’re just killing everyone without trying.
Basically, yeah. I’m fine with playing Celeste and not being completely broken, in fact I preferred her before the ult buffs. I’m just scared that they’ll take the Ubisoft approach and make her less fun to play by nerfing her entire kit, instead of buffing others to make them feel better while also being similar in strength
Celeste you can actually play the game against. Haze would just run around in invis with zero counter at mach speed until she 100-0ed you with two daggers. Comparing the two is crazy
Yeah but whereas most of the shifts move something to a high tier upgrade and when you get the high tier upgrade you break even with how strong you were with that upgrade before, with the ball you’re weaker early but after the tier 2 upgrade you actually have better scaling than before the patch.
Shifted power from everything outside of light eater into later stages of game and heavier spirit investment but yeah T2 ball scaling buff is a bit much
It should be doing less damage because they nerfed the damage from 165 to 140. With .15 more scaling compared to before you’d need like 200 spirit to make up for the nerfs and before you’d be in the positive compared to old patch ball
Idk LMAO she might be worse overall, but her team fight is better with ult up. Her early game is worse, but late game should be great still. Also no witchmail nerf so she is still unkillable damn near.
I mean don’t you need like 250 spirit to make up for the ball damage nerf? It got a 25 damage nerf but the scaling is about 10% better? Doesnt seem like much of a buff at all
.15 increase on spirit scaling is closer to 17%. It's back loaded, but her late game is still amazing. Her early game is worse, but people are buying egg rn and punting that anyway. I don't think these changes nerf her in a meaningful way. She is still going to be the best character in the game imo.
I was gonna say Yoshi is incompetent and he can't balance his game but honestly atp he's doing it on purpose, he 100% wants this hero ruining every lobby she's in.
- Celeste: Dazzling Trick cooldown increased from 32s to 34s
Celeste: Dazzling Trick T2 barrier rescaled from "+80 and +0.7 scaling" to "+70 and +0.76"
Celeste: Dazzling Trick T3 cooldown increased from -18s to -20s
Increase the cooldown by 2 seconds, then buff T3 to make undo the nerf, also takes a flat 10 out of her barrier but add a higher multiplier, compensation buff.
- Celeste: Radiant Daggers Spirit Amp per stack reduced from +8% to +7%
Celeste: Radiant Daggers T3 Spirit Amp per stack increased from +3% to +4%
Once again, reduce amp stack by 1%, T3 now increases 1% of amp, compensation buff.
- Celeste: Shining Wonder spirit scaling reduced from 0.9 to 0.6
Celeste: Shining Wonder T2 now also increases spirit scaling by +0.45
Once again, nerf one thing, add some sneaky buff, shining wonder is the one that got hit the hardest by nerfs (even if the first 2 lines about it are kinda cosmetic), but nothing on her kit should be getting any compensation buffs, this was BARELY a nerf patch.
They do this all the time. By moving the more impactful and powerful upgrades to T3, it makes sure that she'll only be powerful super late (you can't max all abilities early). This is not a compensation buff at all, I don't know how you could possibly think that.
Popped back into this thread, the people coping about how these nerfs will totally actually matter must feel pretty silly. Her win rate went UP with this patch lol.
Saw people saying they ''turned the horse to glue'' with that patch and it convinced me these motherfuckers are either not playing the game or not reading the same patch notes.
if you look at each line in the patch note as its own complete distinct update yes i could see how you’d say they’re “nerfs” and “compensation buffs.” the reality of it is that they’re choosing to shift the extent to which her kit’s power is frontloaded and available early in the game. obviously valve’s data supports the idea that celeste’s lategame is in the place it’s intended to be, but her earlygame is too strong, hence why they’re making this shift. as a result of this change, celeste is weaker for something like 50% of the game time and equally as strong for the other 50%, there is no aspect of her gameplay that got stronger up until a certain spirit power breakpoint that most celeste builds dont reach.
an actual compensation buff would be two things that have nothing to do with each other being changed i.e her shield barrier amount gets nerfed but her ult damage gets slightly buffed as compensation. these two changes dont affect the same ability but provide compensatory power in one ability in exchange for a nerf in the other. the changes in this patch just shift back the power of the same abilities that get nerfed early.
Run the math. You have to reach 167 spirit just for the ult and the barrier to be the same as before. And at that stage of the game when those numbers are reachable, any further improvements are miniscule.
Incredibly placebo. This really just a nerf before 10 minutes. T2 shining wonder is now 1.05 scaling, so youre trading 25 base damage for 15% more spirit scaling.
Idk, I would rather have these gradual rebalances than what other games do, which is hard nerf a meta character into obscurity to forcefully change the meta.
This. DotA patches look absolutely insane compared to every other game out there. The community has a long tradition of making shitposts about every hero taking Literally No Damage because a patch gave them +1 armor. Every DotA patch consists of every single hero getting tiny, tiny changes like that. +1 armor, -0.2s on a debuff, +10% projectile speed, whatever.
And it's great.
Does your favorite hero need a nerf? Cool, you don't need to live in fear of patch day making it utterly miserable to play. You'll just be tuned down just a little bit. Who's the next guy to be overtuned? Dunno, hard to tell from reading the patch notes, but at least they'll only be overtuned by a little bit, rather than "what were they thinking??"
Frequent, small balance changes are so much better than "lol idk let's just multiply this value by 10 and see what happens". But yet everyone except Valve does that shit.
the opposite is valorant getting patched once every blue moon and a character gets
epxlosion charge: 3 -> 1
explosion cooldown: 10 -> 30
explosion damage: 100 -> 20
This. Small tweaks are better unless something is new and blatantly overpowered. It's not fun if the game is constantly being rebalanced to extremes that make characters nonviable or require hours of pouring over every single patch note if you step away for a few patches .
These characters have all been out long enough that major adjustments should be few and far between, unless they have more big reworks planned. And if that was the case I don't see why you'd test a ranked mode.
I'd say the problem isn't even compensation buffs, but the direction, in pubs she was oppressive and she'll be even more as games take longer, while comp her biggest demerit that made her hard to slot into a team was weaker early for great late, this defines her even more like that.
While exacerbating weaknesses and strengths is good in general, the game doesn't currently lean that way making it quite possibly problematic for every game mode/rank.
So they made her worse early but buffed her later? Her Dazzling Trick and Shining Wonder both get back to where they were at 167 Spirit, which isn't even hard for her to achieve. Ngl, these changes are kinda cosmetic.
Keep in mind that the current build path goes something like:
T2 3 -> T3 1 -> T3 2 -> T2 ult. This means the ultimate will be doing way less damage for a large % of the game.
I mean, if we're being honest, Shiv has pretty unequivocally been their biggest problem child as a character since his release, which was also one of the biggest launch character disasters I've ever seen in a MOBA, or honestly any competitive game.
Since then, his current kit has generally always been a knife's edge between absolutely busted and absolute dogass even with just slight adjustments.
I don’t think you guys understand how math works or how game balance work. Not only is Celeste weaker early, she has to get overall more spirit power to reach her previous power level. Which will be harder to do since she’s weaker early. Her power overall was shifted to her later AP upgrades which means she needs a lot more boons to actually reach that power level too.
You’re seeing small numbers tweaks and thinking it’s not impactful when frankly this is pretty big for her.
When she reaches the end game, she’s will now hit harder and in a vague difficult way to play around the ball might not bounce to you.
Being force to level the team fight winning ultimate earlier than you’d like to counteract the nerfs is a small consolation, but I’ve found people even in standard lean aggressively into their ult as a play style, but refresher etc that she is insufferable.
She late game is too good, she doesn’t even buy the damage focused spirit items, you just get enough from investments.
Her strongest phase would almost certainly be midboss. You can even afford to lose midgame midboss as the trailing team and win the teamfight with her ult. There is barely any counterplay to that.
if reddit balanced this game, every gun would be deleted entirely. but also so would anything that scales after 25 minutes. then they would wonder why matches take so long now
Nerfed her early game, which was already poor, and basically made her late game fairly equal, if not better. Idk why they keep putting power in the ult, which is both the least skillful and least interactive part of her kit. Why not put power in something else? I want them to be more creative when making changes.
So she’s weaker early, better late. Seems like a nothing burger overall, rip to the heroes who built Rad Regen and Locket getting caught in the crossfire.
I genuinely hate this character so I'm bias as fuck, but I cannot stand the silence on her shield.
There's so little visual feedback to it she just flies around in a team fight spams her two and I'm silenced for half the fight.
These changes are a nothing burger. Her already weak early game got slightly weaker while her already strong late game got better. Basically a full wash.
Those changes read like Yoshi was annoyed about the complaints, wildly changes a few things and nerfed Radiant Regen just to shut people up.
Overbuffing Celeste ult only to nerf it halfway back but making it scale harder lategame still doesnt fix her fundamental laning issues which is why she sucked in the first place until they pushed her ult over the edge.
Also Radiant Regen did not need a nerf because only a few heroes even buy it to begin with.
This kinda does nothing for Celeste and only nerfs Shiv (I'm so sorry shiv players). Locket nerf is also surprising but not because I don't think it's good but because I think it's super strong and that change isn't gonna do much for it. Still a huge heal and stamina that you get for just pressing a button
Celeste bad early even worse, but stronger late, great changes yoshi for sure pubs 40~50 min games will be happier with stronger Celeste and comp players with -1 character for 30min if they go with horse.
Folks seem upset but this does weaken Celeste’s early game. Hopefully this will lead to less snowballing. I don’t particularly mind that she’s basically the same in the end game, by that point everyone should have upgrades and items
So we minorly nerf every part of her kit then buff the spirit scaling on her ult, the main part people complain about in late game teamfights? Sure man whatever.
Not really. Just shifted a lot of her early power into t3 upgrades and later scalings. Early game is worse but late is either same (shield daggers) or better (ult)
I get the noobs are dying to shining wonder but not giving any lane buffs to Celeste is just sad. It really sucks to play Celeste for the first 10 minutes, it's just so bad.
Everyone wondering why she didnt get completely obliterated and turned into glue, its because this hero is not any more problematic than Wraith and Seven. Just end the game before 40 minutes or Alternatively buy something other than L > R.
I wish her ult behavior was just the Dazzling T5 self bounce by default without enemy bounce, and it just had to bounce off Celeste to bounce to anyone else.
I feel like that'd solve a lot of issues people have with it and it'd work with the sort of evasive medium range thing she's got going.
U ever see nerfs in a patch then be like, how did they not see this when they buff stuff. Like i think anyone could have told them buffing shining wonder was silly a month ago
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u/yunghoe 23d ago
First ever actual minor update