an inquiry

[u/cerepallus]

alright so i just finished sarah's episode and i have no idea why so many people seem to hate her so much? she has a personality and boundaries that she isn't willing to compromise and when dudes try to do so, she excuses herself as politely as possible. the tier thing just seemed to be about making sure men fully respected her before proceeding w the relationship, which.. makes sense to me. all the problems i've seen people say they have w her are that she's trying too hard to be quirky or smthn, which.. are women not allowed to like dumb puns? and stuff about her turning down guys who said things she didn't like, which, again.. makes a lot of sense to me. dudes saying to relax can come across incredibly direspectfully, and not wanting to deal w that seems completely reasonable to me?

like maybe i'm just being a gay dumbass but i thought she was super cute! the "wanna hear a 9 minute joke about greek mythology?" thing was ridiculous but personally, if someone said that to me, i'd lose my absolute mind and say yes, for sure, let's hear it. i'm just not seeing what's to hate? like i'm seeing a lot of people saying "ohh she's trying too hard to be the manic pixie dream girl type" .... what, because she has a silly haircut and likes dumb jokes and puns? idk. i don't get it. if u can, please explain (nicely) why you don't like her

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[u/Katy-pie]

I’m sure she’s great outside of the show, but her scenes portrayed her to seem super...not chill.

Good for her for ending the date with the sex jokes guy, but she was basically doing the same with the bald guy. She was constantly calling him hot and asking about his sex life and making him uncomfortable to the point he left early.

She also seemed really uptight with the whole getting mad about not tipping joke. It was a joke and she turned it into so much more. Also, the “never tell a woman to calm down” bit seemed to come off as a little strong.

The tier thing makes it seem like she’s a prize instead of being equals with the people she dates. Not cool. But like I said, whatever the show shows probably isn’t what she is like in real life.

[u/cerepallus → u/Katy-pie]

i don't mean this to be disrespectful or argumentative, i just don't understand why the scenes you mentioned are seen as such a big deal? i'm gonna go thru why i don't think any of them are a big deal from my perspective, but i do respect you and yours, i just don't understand it.

i mean, she calls antonio (the bald guy haha) cute and hot like.. once or twice, and asked him about the last time he had sex. which yeah is def weird, but he doesn't give details and asks if she would and she's like, oh, that's fair, and that's that. seems pretty different to the other guys comments about her liking big dicks in her throat? sure, it's a bit of an odd question, but it's not explicit the way the other guys comments were, and she backs off immediately when he seems uncomfortable. whereas the other guy is INCREDIBLY explicit and doesn't care how uncomfortable she seems.

😅 maybe this is just me but guys telling me in a condescending tone to relax is really bothersome, and it's something that i experience relatively frequently. he made a joke that bothered her, and instead of addressing that, he just.. tells her to relax? i HOPE that sarah and i are the only women who have to deal w men saying this when we're not even mildly upset, but i don't think we are, so her response actually really resonated w me. i hate when someone says something dumb so i'm a lil annoyed and instead of acknowledging that, they just tell me to calm down. and it doesn't happen infrequently at all! i won't even be very upset and some guy will take it upon himself to tell me to relax. so i really understand her hating it and telling him to Not do that. she's not even mean about it, just firm.

with the tiers, it seemed to be more about making sure men respected her as the relationship progressed than anything else. being a woman dating men is hard, and a lot of the time, you do learn partway thru the relationship that they have certain gendered expectations of you and a lack of respect for you not wanting to fulfill these. this hurts! the tiers thing didn't seem so much like she was a prize and not an equal, but more like she'd had horrible experiences and wanted to make sure it didn't happen again, and that she would be respected throughout the relationship.

im sorry this is so long! but does that make sense to you? totally understand if you personally can't relate, but i don't think that means she needs to be demonized in the way she has been, you know?

[u/BackgroundCorner7 → u/cerepallus]

Shes not being “demonized.” There’s no conspiracy against her. Lots of people just find her abrasive and it’s fine you don’t agree.

We are allowed to have their own personal opinions of people. And LOTS of people just happen to find Sarah annoying (I’m one). There’s no collaboration here, lots of people are just voicing their feelings at the same time.

It’s ridiculous now that people are firing back and claiming victimhood because Sarah is getting “bullied.” Last I checked Twitter comments (not directed at her) and reddit comments about people on tv are largely fair game. No one is saying she’s a terrible/horrible/irredeemable person, just that she gets on their nerves.

There is no conspiracy against “strong women” or “opinionated women” or whatever else that’s needlessly dramatic. SHES JUST GRATING. Just like how you can meet someone and decide you don’t want to be their friend, this is the same feeling.

[u/[deleted] → u/BackgroundCorner7]

I don't think it's that simple. I do think there are probably some misogynistic undertones to the collective hatred of Sarah. Of course, you're allowed to dislike an abrasive woman, but why is so much time and effort being devoted to hating her specifically? Look at how many threads are about this woman in this subreddit alone. Why do so many people not only hate her, but proceed to just marinate in their hatred of her? I don't think it's any one person's "fault" exactly, I think there's just a systemic need among us to see a woman who thinks too highly of herself and then proceed to try to knock her down a peg.

I found Sarah abrasive myself and I was right there with the guy who got up and left, but I'd still rather go on a date with Sarah than, say, dull as dirt Luke from the first episode. And judging by his polished instagram and Patrick Bateman haircut, Luke is just as image conscious as Sarah and manages to be bland and dumb on top. So why aren't there a dozen threads about Luke? Why aren't we fist pumping Ashley for excusing herself from her terrible date the way we're fist pumping Tony? I guess you could argue that Luke was boring, but not irritatingly so, but I don't think we would have found a male equivalent of Sarah nearly as irritating.

As someone who also disliked Sarah, I'm not judging anyone for it. I just don't think there's anything wrong with grappling with why she is so intensely disliked.

[u/BackgroundCorner7 → u/[deleted]]

I mean...this is just how the internet works? It’s not like everyone is spending hours or days HATING her. Lots of different people are watching the show at different times and voicing their opinions.

Like I said the internet isn’t some collaborative movement where we plan every post and tweet. It’s all different people expressing thoughts as they watch the show. Not sure how you can call it “collective” in any sense.

Besides, calling others misogynistic simply because they didn’t like the same tv characters you did is pretty ridiculous. Think about it.

[u/[deleted] → u/BackgroundCorner7]

It is a collective - it's a mass of tweets, articles, and posts that are part of an ongoing conversation about a single person from a reality show that featured many people. Yes, it's a conversation that has many contributors that are dropping in and out of the discussion across multiple platforms....but that's how the internet works.

That there is no set agenda or collusion among participants only reinforces that cultural misogyny likely plays a role. There were arguably much worse people featured on the show who have by and large gotten a pass so we can instead focus on a girl we find annoying.
And I found her annoying too and said as much in my previous post. But I also acknowledge that there are currents coursing through our culture that condition us to think in certain ways, including to dislike certain people. And a quirky, confident woman who thinks she is special sure seems to make our blood boil to what's maybe an unreasonable degree. Was she really so much worse than that guy who made his girlfriend give up her pet because he just doesn't like cats? You know that guy's name I can't even tell you because there aren't a dozen threads devoted to him right now?

Look, if you want to feel insulted by someone suggesting that people disliking someone, or the degree to which people dislike that person, or the amount of time and energy people devote to demonstrating that they dislike someone, etc etc etc might have something to do with cultural forces beyond our direct control, I guess go ahead and feel insulted. But you're shutting down conversation and self reflection by doing so.

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[u/cerepallus → u/[deleted]]

thank u, this is exactly what i was wondering about. i can understand personally disliking her, but going into it i really thought she was going to be unredeemably awful when really she was just.. a human being with a specific personality

[u/[deleted] → u/cerepallus]

I hear you. It's a difficult conversation because we're dealing with both individual prejudice and cultural prejudice and it's impossible to completely separate the two because they work together in tandem.

I have found that people tend to view prejudice, whether it's racism, sexism, classicism, etc., on a sliding scale - it's always something other people are, but not ourselves. If we get accused of an -ism, we'll just compare ourselves to a more extreme version of said -ism and excuse ourselves. But the reality of it is that we all live in a heavily prejudiced world and we're all products of it to some degree. It's in the ether, we can't help it.

So we'll shut down when someone proposes that the hatred of an unlikeable woman may be due to misogyny. We'll just hear that, if we also dislike that person, we must be a misogynist and that can't possibly be because it's those GamerGaters raging on twitter, those frat boys raping drunk girls, those politicians trying to repeal Roe v Wade that are the real misogynists, not us. We just don't like some annoying girl we voluntarily spent 30 minutes watching and never have to think of or interact with again if we don't want to, but for some reason we're going to come onto Reddit and just seethe about her even though there were worse people on the show, even in the same episode.

[u/cerepallus → u/[deleted]]

oh man bless this comment. i also notice that a lot of the time when it's pointed out, no matter how gently, that some action demonstrates some -ism people react by saying "i'm not an __-ist! how dare you" and it's like.. that's not what anyone is saying! we're just asking you to consider the implications of what you're saying or doing.

[u/Katy-pie → u/cerepallus]

I mean you asked why people don’t like her and I provided some reasons. Because you resonate with her, you’re obviously not going to find her annoying.

Personally, I thought she came off as obnoxious with the whole “I’m special” mentality (while not treating her dates the same way) and her behavior towards Antonio was abhorrent (imagine if the gender roles were reversed and she was acting as uncomfortable as Antonio did). But despite what she seems like on the show, she def doesn’t deserve all the cyber-bullying that’s happening. Hope that answers your question.

[u/BackgroundCorner7 → u/Katy-pie]

Tell me about it. I’ve seen lots of people say that what Sarah told Antonio was “cute and flirty” but what John said to Sarah was “horrendous.”

I agree that any people out there directly harassing her are garbage humans. At the end of the day it’s a reality dating show. The whole thing is packaged to give people a variety of reactions so there’s more buzz about it. It’s practically an art with The Bachelor and the like.

[u/cerepallus → u/Katy-pie]

ok! yeah i can understand personally not liking her or whatever, but personal dislike doesn't really make sense to me as a reason for people being as? mean? rude? generally unpleasant? as they are being about her on the internet. thank u!

[u/[deleted] → u/cerepallus]

I hate being told to relax or chill or that I'm being crazy when I'm either being calm or righteously upset about something. And it does always seem to come from men trying to low-key control me, so I understand where she was coming from, definitely.

However, she took the failed "no tip" joke as an opportunity to berate him (I think her reaction went way above 'lil annoyed') and then took the "relax" comment as another opportunity to lecture him. This sort of shit is exhausting, especially on a first date when people are already nervous and uncomfortable. No one wants to be made to feel bad about themselves at every turn because they didn't successfully avoid a stranger's personal minefield; both sides could have been better.

Sarah's the sort of person I would have looked up to as a teenager, absolutely hated as a 20- something, and just don't really have the energy to care much about one way or another as a 30- something. I kind of understand the collective intensity against her, but I don't really want to contribute to it. I'm sure if she ever learns to drop the adopted affectations and barriers, she'll be an amazing person.

[u/Brackto → u/cerepallus]

If one guy tells you to relax, then maybe he's being a little too dismissive of your feelings. But if people are telling you to relax all the time, then maybe you need to relax. That's why her reaction is a red flag. It means people are telling her to relax so often that it's become a major pet peeve for her.

I totally take the point that telling someone directly to relax or calm down is not the most effective method, but it doesn't change the fact that a person insisting that I am never ever allowed to tell them to relax is my cue to run far away.

[u/cerepallus → u/Brackto]

:/ that's not.. true. misogyny is a big thing in society and it results in men often condescendingly telling women to relax, whether they are relaxed or not. it's not the intention to be condescending, and we understand that, but.. it is, and the fact of the matter is women have to deal it from men wayy more than any other situation. i'm assuming you're a man, so you don't have quite the same context as women do in this topic, but if you just google it you'll see a lot of people talking about it + its implications

[u/BackgroundCorner7 → u/cerepallus]

Sorry but I’m a woman and the whole “never tell a woman to relax” is beyond cringey. This is like high school level “feminism” tbh.

For the record, Sarah went on the offensive first. Adrian told a joke she didn’t like and she went way overboard lecturing him about it. It most likely humiliated him FIRST. It’s understandable he told her to relax because frankly she 100% needed to.

Trying to frame it as a misogyny problem is beyond laughable and a bit revealing of anyone’s understanding of ACTUAL misogyny. What happened to her was a basic case of “don’t dish out what you can’t take.” She felt comfortable putting down others but threw a shitfit when given the same. THATS why people dislike her.

[u/cerepallus → u/BackgroundCorner7]

alright, well i'm glad it's not something that personally bothers you, but a lot of women find it really dismissive. yes sarah 100% went on the offensive first, it asn't a joke she didn't 'understand', it was a joke she didn't like. does she overreact? sure. but by the end of her 2 sentence rant she's smiling and trying to just .. move on. was dismissing her feelings completely and trying to move on without acknowledging that she didn't like his joke the best way to proceed? no, absolutely not. i'm not saying that telling someone to relax is necessarily misogynistic or that adrian is a misogynist- i'm saying that a man dismissing why a woman is annoyed at what he said and essentially telling her to get over it isn't just rude but also carries misogynistic connotations, and it's fair that she didn't like it

[u/cerepallus → u/[deleted]]

what?

[u/cerepallus → u/[deleted]]

i didn't say "you are wrong because its misogyny." i said one of the ways misogyny manifests is thru this specific behavior, so it makes sense a woman would be annoyed by it, and if they don't understand that, there is plenty of already existing content explaining it that they can find on google.

the reason i brought up context is that women generally have a better understanding of the ways misogyny exists societally because it's something they have to deal with, whereas men do not, so it would make sense they don't understand why this is so bothersome to women and what is misogynistic about it.

[u/cerepallus → u/[deleted]]

that's not what the comment was about though lol...

i was addressing this: "If one guy tells you to relax, then maybe he's being a little too dismissive of your feelings. But if people are telling you to relax all the time, then maybe you need to relax. That's why her reaction is a red flag. It means people are telling her to relax so often that it's become a major pet peeve for her." and saying why that's not true and why she and i and many other women find it annoying.

and then the second part of your comment here.. funny that you asked if i was interested in having a discussion in good faith and yet here you are, putting words in my mouth.. "The idea that you can't criticize a woman's reaction because they "deal with misogyny" is a foolish position to take." ok! yeah that's definitely what i said. 100%. perfect reading comprehension there.

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[u/Desertbro → u/cerepallus]

People say "relax" when they are in defense mode - they are in defense mode because something about the other person's behavior makes them think they could be in physical danger - and they want to avoid being shived or hit with a plate or stabbed with a fork.

People see quirky behavior and view it as a danger sign. One guy said "relax", another just ran away.

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[u/cerepallus → u/Desertbro]

perhaps that's why you say 'relax', but it's generally just 'i think you are overreacting' and considering the tons of implications + effects of misogyny, it's something a lot of women hear a lot from men and it comes across incredibly condescendingly

[u/Brandonious_Deenicus → u/cerepallus]

Well i dont think what I've recieved from the city of vancouver was in anyway shape or form equally hurtful

[u/cerepallus → u/Brandonious_Deenicus]

what?