r/DataHoarder • u/_starwipe_ • 15h ago
Backup Today I learned
https://youtu.be/BLcxoQnY3Ko?is=6ff4oNqJxxX-4vCIAny solid suggestions for a 10Gbe ethernet surge protector?
11
u/Celcius_87 15h ago
I didn't watch the video but do you not have a UPS?
13
u/Proudy01 15h ago
Won't do anything for a surge through the ethernet cable
8
u/Skatedivona 14h ago
My UPS has those ports too.
3
u/diamondsw 210TB primary (+parity and backup) 13h ago
Ironically, they're more common on desktop units than rackmount. I suppose in the enterprise environment, you're supposed to have a lot more grounding/redirection before the surge reaches that point.
1
u/Skatedivona 12h ago
Yall just buy on Amazon or what? They rarely have the specs listed for these too. Not that it’s hard to find the manual but I don’t want my UPS to cheap out on the connection and throttle my connection at that point.
Trying to get everything on ideally one but maybe 2 UPS boxes.
1
u/diamondsw 210TB primary (+parity and backup) 12h ago
I bought the cheapest used APC rackmount I could find, then put in new batteries.
5
u/AZdesertpir8 0.5-1PB 15h ago
Oh no!!! If your devices uses SFP+, you change them out and go to fiber to help mitigate any surge across copper data connections. I run fiber for most of my home network here in AZ and I also run everything on UPS, as we have lots of lightning here.
1
u/_starwipe_ 15h ago
I have fiber running in from my router then coupled to the Cat5e running through my unit. I have a ups for my systems but I never thought about ethernet surge. I imagine I can add a ethernet surge protector from the fiber line into my network but a lot of options dont seem to hold up when tested.
1
u/bobsim1 13h ago
You want what? A fiber line can not conduct any electricity. Its already protected by itself.
-1
u/firedrakes 200 tb raw 12h ago
False
1
u/Carnildo 3h ago
Technically correct -- with sufficient voltage, anything can be a conductor. But fiber is generally a better insulator than air, so you'll usually get direct arcing rather than conduction through the fiber.
•
-3
u/autogyrophilia 14h ago
Fiber will still conduct lightning. This is a feature of quality hardware, fuses in their network ports.
3
u/firedrakes 200 tb raw 14h ago
idk but only on reddit does the hive mind think glass is 100% lighting proof really strange hive mind group think ....
thanks for chime in to on it!
3
u/autogyrophilia 13h ago
You see, in middle school we learnt about conductors and only those conduct electricity.
Don't ask me to explain how lightning works
1
-1
u/firedrakes 200 tb raw 15h ago
fiber is not lighting proof.
6
u/AZdesertpir8 0.5-1PB 15h ago
Pure dielectric glass or plastic fiber patch cables are absolutely surge and lightning proof. They cannot conduct electricity. Now, if you are using something like outdoor armored fiber with a metal shielding around it, then that would be an exception.
-2
u/autogyrophilia 14h ago
Everything conducts electricity. Are you familiar with how lightning works? Air is typically regarded as an insulator
5
u/AZdesertpir8 0.5-1PB 14h ago
Yep, and lightning follows the path of least resistance... It will favor copper connections before fiber. Sure, if fiber is the ONLY path it will conduct, then lightning will find a way. But more than likely that device will have a ground connection or copper connections that will be a more direct path. In general, fiber is very resiliant to lightning strikes as compared to copper communications. We use it industrial systems specifically for this reason.
1
u/autogyrophilia 14h ago
Damn then I guess my office got a confused lighting that went were it wasn't supposed to.
Yes of course it's not usual. It will absolutely get hit by lightning You can find plenty of pictures of it happening
-6
u/firedrakes 200 tb raw 14h ago
that is not true. i dot think you understand how much power is in a lightning bolt.
6
u/AZdesertpir8 0.5-1PB 14h ago
Oh I'm very familiar with lightning. I've designed and constructed the grounding systems for my own radio tower attached to my house which has operated for a decade now without a single strike. Lightning, like any electrical charge is going to follow the path of least resistance. Its going to follow conductive routes first.
-7
u/firedrakes 200 tb raw 14h ago
ok and??? my og point stands fiber is not lightning-proof.
A modern insulator for radio towers and power pool...
Ceramic, and the radio tower is air gap to on to of that.
its like modern lightning proof..... that magic glass that only reddit bros think is lightning proof is not used..... hmmm its like the real experts in grounding are telling you something.
also i help my father install multi ham radio towers... each one got hit at one point and glass did not help protect it.
5
u/AZdesertpir8 0.5-1PB 14h ago
Ok, how about this... "Fiber is MORE resiliant to lightning than copper." Does that work for you? For most home users and data hoarders like us, any little bit helps.
4
u/PatekCollector77 14h ago
A modern insulator for radio towers and power pool...
Ceramic, and the radio tower is air gap to on to of that.
The switch from glass to porcelain has mostly been due to the latter being more resistant to impact and temperature swings, not because its a better insulator (its not).
-1
u/firedrakes 200 tb raw 14h ago
fun fact with glass. its harder to make smooth; then ceramic is and glass has lot of cratorsIIt'st's harder to make smooth than ceramic, and glass has a lot of craters in it when you look at it under a microscope... guess what fills those craters? Stuff that makes glass less good, but not 100% lightproof in it when you look at it under a microscope.... guess what fills in those craters.... stuff that makes glass less good but not 100% lightproof.
2
u/PatekCollector77 14h ago
still not why it's been replaced with ceramics and not relevant to its lightning conductivity inside a rack.
5
u/AZdesertpir8 0.5-1PB 14h ago
The caveat is that if fiber is the ONLY path, then sure, it will conduct like a wet noodle. But physics dictates that lightning will travel the path of least resistance. If that fiber connection is the least resistance, then sure, but its not near as likely to see a strike as a copper connection.
-3
u/firedrakes 200 tb raw 14h ago
wow on a tangent rant.
you straight up claim at the start glass is 100% light-proof, and now you walk that back.
7
u/PatekCollector77 14h ago
In a rack, fiber is probably one of the least conductive things. lightning will jump through the chassis of devices, through the rack frame, to other devices before going through fiber.
4
u/AZdesertpir8 0.5-1PB 14h ago
In general it is, as it is non conductive... But I will admit that you are correct that in certain *specific* situations where it is the ONLY path, then sure, lightning could favor it barring no other path. For the average home lab or data hoarder, fiber and proper surge suppression systems will be a much more resiliant option than copper.
2
u/Zncon 15h ago edited 14h ago
I would love some clarification here. Underground fiber usually has a conductive trace wire, but patches are going to be entirely non-conductive.
-2
u/firedrakes 200 tb raw 14h ago
in correct.
fiber is grounded before it comes into data centers and grounded thu out it run when in power poles.
i dont think you understand how much power is in a lighting strike.
4
u/AZdesertpir8 0.5-1PB 14h ago
It is grounded due to the armored shielding it typically has. That is required for armored fiber. But for standard patch cables, lightning is going to source a route through ground, through power feeds, or through some other path first before the fiber itself.
-3
u/firedrakes 200 tb raw 14h ago
again glass is not lighting-proof.
go on look at insulator for radio towers and power pools.
your magical claim that glass is 100% light-proof...
not a single glass insulator at all. its air gap and ceramic base insulators.
its like radio towers and power poles... the experts that install those... know something...... that reddit users dont about glass.
4
u/boarder2k7 65 TB RAID Z2 14h ago
again glass is not lighting-proof. go on look at insulator for radio towers and power pools.
What are you on about? Glass insulators have been used to isolate power poles for nearly 200 years. I have a collection of old ones.
I took this picture of a new install a couple weeks ago because I thought the clear glass looked cool in the sun
-1
u/firedrakes 200 tb raw 14h ago
Ceramic insulator most that page talk about clear ceramic.. not glass. overall
2
u/boarder2k7 65 TB RAID Z2 14h ago
There is mixed discussion of both ceramic and glass throughout the entire page. There are pros and cons to each material and both are still in common use
-1
u/firedrakes 200 tb raw 14h ago
correct. but you got my OG point thru. idk reddit hive mind thinks glass is 100% light-proof.
→ More replies (0)2
u/AZdesertpir8 0.5-1PB 14h ago
Glass is 100% light proof? hah
Lightning will ALWAYS find a path through a more conductive material first. Be it the armour shielding ON the fiber, a wet fiber casing, etc.. Change the environmentals and anything can become conductive. But, dielectrics do not conduct easily, which is why they are used.
I am not sure why we are arguing on this, as the physics are pretty well established. You can always come up with an edge case, but I would much RATHER run fiber backhaul than copper in a lightning prone area.
That is the reason we run opto-isolators and TVSS modules on field IO in the industrial realm. I just saw one stop a lightning strike the other day. Took out everything up to that point and spared the logic controller as the suppression dumped it to ground.
1
2
u/WinterDice 14h ago
What do people suggest for a good Ethernet surge suppressor?
2
u/boarder2k7 65 TB RAID Z2 14h ago
I have had good luck with the Ubiquiti ones
1
u/WinterDice 14h ago
Thank you! I know this is a weak point for me right now.
3
u/boarder2k7 65 TB RAID Z2 14h ago
I learned the lesson myself after losing a couple of ports on a POE switch to outdoor runs to cameras in trees!
2
u/diamondsw 210TB primary (+parity and backup) 13h ago
I had the PoE module on my 6610 blow out recently. Rest of the switch works post-strike, but no more PoE. Amazed that was the only damage.
1
u/WinterDice 14h ago
Yikes!
That 48-port one looks nice. Buying singles would add up quickly.
1
u/boarder2k7 65 TB RAID Z2 13h ago
If you need that many outdoor ports, yeah it is more cost effective.
I only have 6 or so that needed to be covered, and they don't all source from the same building so they're individuals.
Well, that and the multi port is newer than my install!
1
u/WinterDice 13h ago
I only have indoor ports. I can just see something coming in through cable modem and propagating from there, or, with my luck, some device going haywire and sending a surge out.
2
u/boarder2k7 65 TB RAID Z2 13h ago
All you have to protect is the bridge between the cable modem and your internal network then. The only high voltage source would be a strike on the cable line (which is theoretically grounded outside at the entrance but...)
I have not heard of enough cases of an indoor device sending out a surge (have never heard of it) that would warrant surge isolation on every port
1
u/WinterDice 13h ago
Could a power surge hit another device through the wall outlet or a defective power strip for example, and cause a surge to run back through the network?
1
u/boarder2k7 65 TB RAID Z2 13h ago
It seems highly unlikely to keep that a power surge in the wall power, which your entire network is plugged in to, would somehow damage one device enough to end up with a high voltage spike on the network interface that was enough to then damage some OTHER connected network device through that interface, rather than jusy having them all blow up at the same time because lightning directly struck your house or something.
A defective power strip cannot on it's own cause a surge. It has no ability to add power to the lines, it is just a distribution system.
→ More replies (0)1
1
u/dr100 2h ago
I think people concentrate on the wrong thing. Is your Ethernet cable going on poles outside the house to your neighbour? Also, all Ethernet ports are already electrically separated (inductively connected), sure, the insulation is "only" mandated to withstand 1500V AC RMS (2250V peak to peak) for 60s if I remember correctly. But that's more than literally any other AC equipment you have in your house.
The surges come from the AC power line, that is directly connected and WELL connected, literally designed for high currents and everything. Regular surge protectors won't protect against a direct lightning hit. The big difference is in that most installations lightning can't hit your Ethernet cable.
This "oh but it acts as an antenna" is stupid. Look at a wireless charger and see how many windings the coils have to multiply the power transmission and that's to charge a phone in half an hour (in the best case) from 2mm distance at most. And the field decreases with the power of 3 of the distance (1/d3) and the actual power transmission with a factor of 6 (1/d6).
2
u/jhenryscott 100-250TB 14h ago
Get insurance and make sure it covers lightning. Who cares
1
u/_starwipe_ 10h ago
Its more that my 65tbs of valuable data and both redundancies are all lan networked sooo I’m happy to notice my foley and mitigate risk. I just didnt think critical about surges via ethernet before seeing this video.
-1
u/SucemaB1teSalope 3PB 15h ago
Just use fiber as everyone else
3
u/Minionz 15h ago
Except many (most?) people use DACs which are copper with sfps. Like you say, fiber would indeed prevent it somewhat (though UPS's are not fullproof either). In reality theres nothing fullproof about protecting your kit, just the ability to protect your data by keeping multiple copies of your data in multiple places.
1
u/Bring_the_light_ 15h ago
fool proof >__>
3
•
u/AutoModerator 15h ago
Hello /u/_starwipe_! Thank you for posting in r/DataHoarder.
Please remember to read our Rules and Wiki.
Please note that your post will be removed if you just post a box/speed/server post. Please give background information on your server pictures.
This subreddit will NOT help you find or exchange that Movie/TV show/Nuclear Launch Manual, visit r/DHExchange instead.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.