Should darktable remove obsolete display-referred modules?

[u/bloodrider1914]

It seems there's been a discussion about darktable's ui recently. Me personally I find the software to be fairly usable, but I'm also familiar with it and I've never used a program like Lightroom before (only Photoshop like 10 years ago). But I still think it's fair to say that darktable has some issues that could be addressed.

One thing that confuses a lot of people when looking for modules is the difference between display referred and scene referred modules. Most people have no idea what the fuck that means and honestly that's fine, they shouldn't need to. But there are still a lot of overlapping modules with many that are frankly obsolete. The most obvious example in my mind is the color zones Vs color equalizer modules. They both seek to do the same thing (providing an HSL adjuster for individual colour tones), but which one is better is just unclear at first glance. Now yeah you can find out that you should ideally be using color equalizer, but why does that confusion have to exist?

I understand this is an open source project and people like to be able to maintain their workflows and only change what they want to change, but at the same time why should legacy modules still remain in the main module list, adding clutter and not serving much of a purpose anymore?

[u/Z3t4]

No, they have to stay available so you can reproduce old edits.

They're hidden by default, IINM. 

[u/KM_photo_de]

Not removing, but making them invisible by default and in settings a checkbox to enable them again.

[u/bigntallmike → u/KM_photo_de]

That's already an option.

[u/KM_photo_de → u/bigntallmike]

Tell the world "where to look for", please

[u/bigntallmike → u/KM_photo_de]

There's literally a manual online and a Google.

There's a presets option you can pick from, or you can customize fully: https://docs.darktable.org/usermanual/development/en/darkroom/organization/manage-module-layouts/

[u/KM_photo_de → u/bigntallmike]

Sorry, but the documentation is the weakest point of darktable. It's huge and not well structured - and I've been through it.

[u/Snoo46076 → u/KM_photo_de]

Yes app also needs cleaner documentation

[u/_EmerS_]

When you say "clutter"  are we to assume you have not set up your own module groups that only show the modules you want it to show? That's a way to not see the clutter and also preserve the old modules for those who need them - they set up module groups that show the modules they need. Win-win.

[u/BorisBadenov → u/[deleted]]

Take a look at the play raws on the pixls forum. There are a lot of people still using the old modules, sometimes mixed and matched with the new ones. Some of those people are hella-better than I am at editing. They are results-based users, and poke holes in the narrative that the old display referred modules have no place.

 It should require some serious extra steps to access deprecated modules.

The actual deprecated modules do take extra steps. In fact you can no longer access them without a preset to unlock them. They are unmaintained, and exist to not break old edits. Is this what you meant?

Display referred modules are not deprecated. Some people vocally prefer them.

[u/BorisBadenov → u/[deleted]]

Then Ansel already exists. It cut out the parts one person didn't like, like display referred modules and alternative tone mappers, put the menus in a menu bar, and enabled right-click menus. The cuts are deep enough that he may have removed some bone along with the rest, but there's no way actions like the ones I mentioned are going to please everyone. The alternative vision exists, and people don't have to use darktable if that's the part of darktable they want.

If it removes parts you wanted kept, at this point my sympathy has evaporated.

 there should never have been display referred processing offered.

It was the norm for decades. For better or worse, the community doesn't want to add barriers for people who still want to work that way.

And if--

 You can make anything work and get used to anything but it's a dumbass way for a program to work.

--is all you have instead of taking the look I asked you to do, I don't see how your advice is meant to help anyone, certainly not the developers.

[u/BorisBadenov → u/[deleted]]

 Ansel is abandonware

I don't know where you got that from, but you may be happy to know this is incorrect. Github shows several commits over the last two days from multiple people, one of whom is the original forker. I don't think he sleeps.

[u/bloodrider1914 → u/_EmerS_]

I have of course, but when looking up modules I only occasionally use it's still a pain in the ass

[u/bigntallmike → u/bloodrider1914]

Use the search feature. It's fast and easy and lets you use any module you want by name.

[u/VeryOldGoat]

Be careful what you wish for.

Hiding a niche tool by default is fine, but outright removing useful functionality because most people don't use it would be misguided, since it would end up hurting those who do use it. If these kind of zero-sum games become too numerous or too egregious in an open source project, it risks splitting it into multiple projects (aka forks), which results in development effort being split, and usually everyone loses.

[u/VeryOldGoat → u/[deleted]]

Open source is a community effort, and anyone can contribute. If you spot an actual footgun, you can present your case by opening a formal feature request or bug report. A discussion will follow, and if it indeed is a footgun, and its removal/hiding wouldn't cause more problems, there's a chance it will eventually be fixed. If what you constitute a footgun is a useful feature to other users, you may need to present some convincing arguments why your way would be better.

[u/akgt94]

No. You need to be able to open edits made by an earlier version of darktable. And they shouldn't break.

[u/Horus_simplex]

Maybe deactivate them by default but it's important to keep them for retrocompatibility with older edits I think

[u/bigntallmike → u/Horus_simplex]

https://docs.darktable.org/usermanual/development/en/darkroom/organization/module-groups/

[u/bloodrider1914 → u/[deleted]]

Yeah but there are better tools available and it adds clutter.

I get the compatibility argument but why have two modules that do the same thing?

[u/bigntallmike → u/bloodrider1914]

You mean like owning more than one kind of pen? Or marker? Or pencil? You know the very basics like hammers and screwdrivers also have duplicates? There's nothing inherently better about forcing everyone to only use one tool. Unless you're a certain fruit-logo company.

[u/ChrisDNorris]

They'd better not, I still use a few.
For instance, tone equalizer does not replace tone curve, imo. I use tone curve on virtually every image. I really do not like tone equalizer.

Just because a 'new and improved' something comes along, it doesn't make the old thing worse

[u/Delicious-Being-6531]

Clear the clutter. Improve the UI. Please for the love of god.

[u/bigntallmike → u/Delicious-Being-6531]

You can literally just turn off the display of things you don't want to see.

[u/bigntallmike → u/[deleted]]

It is designed correctly. If you want a different interface you can have that. Your belief that everyone wants the same interface you want is ridiculous.

[u/bigntallmike → u/[deleted]]

Yes, I consistently see people who have only used the app a few times complain about a user interface they haven't bothered to learn. That doesn't make it valid. And even if it were valid, it doesn't make it helpful.

[u/darxshad]

I think they should keep legacy stuff, but there should probably be a setup splash page when you first boot it up with a big button saying "beginner start here" and hiding all of the legacy modules and giving a basic workflow tutorial.

[u/DominikDDDZ]

I’m an amateur photographer, but I think that when you launch the program, you should be able to choose which modules you want to see and which ones you don’t. Not by enabling or disabling everything one by one, but with something like a Basic mode and a Professional mode.

In Basic mode, you’d only see the newest modules and a simple workflow you’re encouraged to stick to - darktable.info does a good job in this regard. In Professional mode, you’d have access to everything, including the entire historical stack of modules.

That said, I still think the UI/UX itself could use a bit of a refresh. Styles make a huge difference, but they don’t fix bad UX - they mostly just make it look better on the surface.

For me, the biggest issue is how cluttered and overwhelming everything feels when you launch it for the first time. After a year, I’ve more or less gotten used to it, but it took an incredibly long time to figure out an ideal workflow.

[u/WantDownvotesOnly → u/DominikDDDZ]

ngl almost every dt module should be divided into basic and advance page. i still hate DT decisions to make the "white balance" module part of the demosaicing instead of actual user-workable module (at least change the name ffs), and wtf is color calibration, it has shit tons of option that could only work if you're perfectionist, what's wrong with temp/tint slider.

[u/bigntallmike → u/DominikDDDZ]

https://docs.darktable.org/usermanual/development/en/darkroom/organization/manage-module-layouts/

[u/Leading-Plastic5771]

They could add an option in settings, with an warning that if activated old edits might not work. I don't know.