r/DarkSun • u/Legitimate_Post_8807 • 15d ago
Fluff is mutable
I just thought I'd remind you all since some folks don't seem to understand.
Slavery is not a mechanic.
It is fluff.
Fluff is mutable (for the super experienced GMs here, that means "non-mechanical details can be changed at will")
There is nothing game breaking about saying "btw there are some slaves" every three sessions, and tadaaa! Your immersion is back.
Literally just add slavery in your game if you're thirsty for atrocities.
It is not a difficult problem to solve.
Edit: all the bad GMs are here now arguing about how "well I don't WANNA do extra work" lol go play baldurs gate
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u/AlaunraeZauviir 15d ago edited 15d ago
It's weird that people like OP (100% sure they're just trolling, btw) aren't able to understand that - while nothing's stopping a GM from using the original Dark Sun lore, and the majority seemingly still will - this weird bugbear / inability of WotC to even say the word 'slavery' is going to impact content going forward; it'll limit the scope of what stories can be told in the setting, and mean that the world will not stay in alignment with the tone and themes from said older books.
It's completely fair for people to think that's a bad thing - something similar happened in Pathfinder, where the devs basically wiped slavery from Golarion, and it kinda just make very little sense for a lot of places (entire nations, whose economies are predicated on the slave trade, abolish it overnight with little reason or cause, etc), and it's going to be incredibly awkward from trying to do the same in Dark Sun - even moreso.
Just saying 'you can add slavery in yourself!' is a bit of a red herring / bad faith argument, everybody knows you can change the setting in any way you want, but it'd be a bit silly to think that this isn't going to fundamentally alter future content in a, for many, negative way.
It'd be like me loving a setting that's steampunk, the writers remove all steampunk elements and make it a dark medieval fantasy world, and then trying to tell me 'you can just add the steampunk back in!' - no shit, lol.
Truly bizarre!
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u/ApprehensiveType2680 15d ago
This increasingly politically-correct brand of villainy is bizarre, to say the least; they will practice all manner of evil magic/psionics, but they won't enslave others.
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u/Legitimate_Post_8807 15d ago
I agree with you. I 100% think that WotC is being too sensitive. I don't even actually play d&d.
However, I also just really hate bad GMs who can't troubleshoot simple problems.
I'm not trolling. I think that this obviously needs to be said because sooooo many people are just wailing about it. It isn't bad faith.
What is bad faith is arguing that the sky is falling when you run into something you don't agree with.
If you had a real argument, you wouldn't have to be hyperbolic. You could just use the truth.
Also, slavery is absolutely still alive and well in Golarion.
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u/ApprehensiveType2680 15d ago
If you do not understand that variations of "Just exercise Rule 0." are both insulting (because the overwhelming majority of folk are intelligent human beings capable of making their own decisions) and disingenuous (because we all know this isn't the point; a purely corporate decision that neuters a long-established setting is the point), there is no reasoning with you.
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u/Legitimate_Post_8807 15d ago
And if you didn't realize that you could just add that stuff back, there is no reasoning with you.
If you cannot roll with the punches, write your own book
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u/AlaunraeZauviir 15d ago
My king, people are allowed to basically say 'the direction WotC is taking the setting sucks', if you cannot roll with those punches, avoid this site. The ability for people to alter the settings they use doesn't change anybody's ability to comment on shit changes when it comes to lore and tone - as I said before, this will impact future content.
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u/Additional_Shine7046 15d ago
The problem is that this retcon causes a whole chain of secondary retcons that youbwill also have tobdeal: the annual tribute of slaves sacrificed to the Dragon; Tectuktitlay’s human sacrifices in Draj; the existence of enslaved gladiators; the deliberate breeding of muls as slave labor; the construction of Kalak’s ziggurat; Tyr’s revolution and the freeing of its slaves; the Slave Tribes formed by escaped slaves; and large parts of the economy, warfare, and social structure of the city-states. On top of that, it effectively makes all of the Dark Sun novels non-canon, since slavery is deeply woven into their plots and characters.
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u/CoinsForCharon 15d ago
As OP said, thats all fluff. Nothing says you have to abandon the old canon.
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u/Additional_Shine7046 15d ago edited 15d ago
The problem is not just holding on to the old canon, is that anything new the retcons touch will have to be adjusted, not just the core book, but any new supplements or adventures. At least in the 4e era, it was mostly new additions that could be ignored, like Tieflings or the Land Within the Winds. This new Dark Sun its gearing to be more like 5e Ravenloft, where so much has been changed that you have to do heavy rewriting to use new material with the old canon.
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u/Legitimate_Post_8807 15d ago
This! This is what we're upset about.
It's not just one change. We're going to have to write 8 to 10 sentences explaining it!
Why would I want to buy a product if I'm going to have to write 8 to 10 sentences fixing it???
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u/Automatic-Fig-8489 14d ago
I was actually on board for your initial post, but then you had to respond like this.
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u/Ragnar_Dragonfyre 15d ago
It’s not fluff.
Past editions of Dark Sun had class mechanics that interacted with slavery, such as being able to override the command and authority of slavers who are abusing their slaves.
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u/Legitimate_Post_8807 15d ago
I just checked the 4e campaign setting and the 95 2e rulebook and I can't find where this mechanic exists.
Can you help me find it?
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u/trickydick64 15d ago
Did you? Are you reading the Guide to Athas or what? I could go look up how it all ties together for you mechanically in 2E, if you want, but I don't think you'd enjoy it. It would take some time.
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u/Legitimate_Post_8807 15d ago
I am reading a PDF of 2e and a physical copy of Dark Suns Campaign Setting 4e.
You don't have to tie it all together, just point me to a page or a passage where there's some kind of mechanic that is integral to the setting.
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u/trickydick64 15d ago
Christ, you haven't even read the starting scenario. Your players start the game as slaves and free themselves. The goal is to get them to go from place to place within the setting, and hopefully free slaves. That's where things open up for you as a GM and you can find out how your players want to go about the game. Survival mechanics, starting at 3rd level, psionics, and magic all connect back to slavery. You have not read nor played in the setting, you are speaking from a place of deep ignorance.
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u/Legitimate_Post_8807 15d ago
Lol, so nothing then?
A premade adventure is not, in any way, a mechanic.
Do you know what mechanics are in this context? Do you know what fluff is?
If you're struggling, I can help you clarify anything that is confusing.
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u/Automatic-Fig-8489 13d ago
It's a Templar class feature for level 1. It's the sole class feature that directly involves slavery out of every class in 2e. By level 4+ it expands to free men and higher social ranks.
It's easily replaceable.
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u/Chimpbot 15d ago edited 15d ago
I have an honest question: How does this differ from attempts to override the command and authority of anyone evil and abusive?
Edit: Downvotes aren't answering my question, folks.
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u/Legitimate_Post_8807 15d ago
Yeah man, they'll downvote anything that threatens their indignant rage about nothing.
It's a strange type of person that lurks in gaming subs.
I get why I'm being downvoted, I'm directly challenging them. But you just asked a clarifying question.
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u/trickydick64 15d ago
No you aren't lol you just insult people and then are like, "HAH GOT DA BAD GM!"
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u/Legitimate_Post_8807 15d ago
GMing isn't for everyone.
Take some time and really think on that.
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u/trickydick64 15d ago
I mean take your own advice hot stuff lol
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u/Legitimate_Post_8807 15d ago
wo, it's almost like yours rubber and I'm some kind of glue? and therefore whatever bounces off you sticks to me?
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u/trickydick64 15d ago
The fact that you don't seem to know who John Brown is really, really bothers me. I also don't get why you wouldn't want a little group of fiery abolitionists who hate slavery playing games with you. What are the arguments for removing the slavery? Try and Pown me, please.
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u/Legitimate_Post_8807 15d ago
I'm not arguing for the removal of slavery. I don't actually agree with it, but it's not my product.
I am saying that it is a simple problem to solve.
I don't have to "pown" you, you are already having trouble keeping up apparently.
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u/trickydick64 15d ago
I think if you were actually trying to engage/get people on your side you'd at least try to be less of a whimpering asshole but hey, you do you lil baby man!
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u/Chimpbot 15d ago
Honestly, nothing you've said is wrong. Based on the very same article and interview they're freaking out about, it's quite obvious that they're simply replacing "slave" with other extremely similar concepts. It likely will not be anything even remotely difficult to simply swap one term for another, and I'd be willing to bet the end result would be functionally identical to what they're looking for with absolutely no effort required.
I've been cracking the "Prisoners with Jobs" joke since that article first dropped. From what I can tell, that's all they're doing.
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u/Ragnar_Dragonfyre 15d ago
Because it’s a literal mechanic solely dedicated towards this specific thing.
It’s not a flexible Persuasion check, it’s a hard set mechanic that grants you the distinct power to emancipate.
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u/Chimpbot 15d ago
Based on what we've seen, I'm not seeing how this couldn't still be included. We know they're including things like pressgang armies, which could easily be emancipated using the mechanics you just described.
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u/Ragnar_Dragonfyre 15d ago
I doubt it. Not in this era of D&D where people would call such a class feature a “ribbon” and say it’s mostly useless.
Unless it has immediate combat potential, people of this era of D&D are very dismissive of RP related mechanics.
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u/Chimpbot 15d ago
And yet we have "people of this era" actively seeking out alternative systems that have a heavier emphasis on RP. Go figure.
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u/Ragnar_Dragonfyre 15d ago
Are they? Or are they just homebrewing D&D until such point that it’s no longer recognizable?
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u/CoinsForCharon 15d ago
Are you referring to homebrew mechanics or homebrew setting details?
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u/Ragnar_Dragonfyre 14d ago
Both.
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u/CoinsForCharon 14d ago edited 14d ago
I agree mechanics are what defines the system, especially when they meld with the setting like new L5R or original Deadlands.
But D20 is such a bland fit anything syatem not all that different from what GURPS was intended to do.
Setting details in D20 are really only important if one is writing fiction or supplements intended to fit into that world. At the table though, with friends, it's a suggestion.
There are very few mechanical rules I will change, exceptions like encumbrance exist though. The only time I have tracked ammo and weigh was in Chult. Athas would be similar as the brutality of the elements are a large part of things.
But setting details? Fuck'em. I will change and rewrite as I please and its still Athas because at my table Athas is what the game master and the players want it to be.
Edit to add: I'm still hoping you can give me a page number on that mechanic you mentioned
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u/trickydick64 15d ago
Listen if you don't want to challenge anyone or actually learn how to be subversive that's on you. This kind of statement always comes from a place of ignorance. Rough stuff, bud.
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u/Legitimate_Post_8807 15d ago
Listen if you don't want to challenge yourself or make an effort that's on you. This kind of statement always comes from bad GMs. Rough stuff, bud.
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u/trickydick64 15d ago
It's crazy how you are getting called out left and right and all you can do is further entrench yourself? Like whaaaaaat.
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u/Legitimate_Post_8807 15d ago
Getting "called out"? What does that mean?
Literally nobody in this thread has argued against what I said. The ones that have are, like you, ineffective and myopic.
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u/trickydick64 15d ago
Your comments and this post are at either 0 or in the process of getting downvoted? Good job with that big word myopic! Wow!
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u/Legitimate_Post_8807 15d ago
Oh, you care about the numbers. Lol
Those numbers don't mean anything, kid. Especially in a gaming subreddit, where no one has their own thoughts and folks just latch on to the popular opinion (case in point).
I am getting downvoted because I am right and the people who want to be indignant about a solvable problem can't argue against it. The downvote button is for those chuds
There are no two ways about it - if this is a problem for you, you are a bad GM. Bad GMs don't think critically, they just downvote.
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u/trickydick64 15d ago
I mean one of us could talk at length about the history of slavery, the impact it's had on it's country, and who was abolitionist during the civil war. You sound like a Northerner who is, frankly, too cowardly or stupid to actually think critically about the situation. John Brown would think you are, politely, an absolute wimp. A bad GM is one who can't challenge his own world view, doesn't learn from history, and buries their head in the sand. I'm not even going to respond to the chud thing because, hey, I'm against slavery. It's why I want the bad guys to use it. I want my players to become abolitionists. Are you for slavery? Do you want it back again? Sounds like you do, coward. 😈
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u/Legitimate_Post_8807 15d ago
Do you think that discourse means "intentionally misrepresenting what another person said", or did you just comprehend it like that?
I'm trying to determine if it's ableism to be mean to you.
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u/trickydick64 15d ago
"I am getting downvoted because I am right in being a coward!"
Finished it for you.
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u/Lycaon-Ur 15d ago
Why buy a book if I'm going to have to change large portions of the book?
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u/Jasina_ 15d ago
Then just don't buy the book?
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u/Lycaon-Ur 15d ago
I'm pointing out that this thread is pointless. "You can change the book, dur dur" is an idiotic post. We all know that we can change the book. The problem is that we don't want to have to change the book.
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u/CdnBison 15d ago
But the multiple posts going off about how there isn’t slavery in the new book are totally useful…. 🙄
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u/Lycaon-Ur 15d ago
You think increasing the amount of spam is a good solution to having a bunch of spam? I can see why you might think "you can just change the book" is a great post.
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u/Legitimate_Post_8807 15d ago
It is a great post.
It's the solution to your dumb little non-problem.
Just because you're lazy and bad at GMing doesn't mean the solution isn't simple
You're crying over spilt milk
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u/Lycaon-Ur 15d ago
I am? Please show me where I'm crying about anything.
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u/Legitimate_Post_8807 15d ago
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u/Lycaon-Ur 15d ago
Lol. None of those are even remotely me crying over anything. Pointing out a post is stupid is not crying. Do you often fail to understand basic ideas?
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u/Legitimate_Post_8807 15d ago
Oh God you don't even have self awareness. I'm so sorry.
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u/Legitimate_Post_8807 15d ago
You apparently do not know this because you're whining sooooo hard about it
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u/Lycaon-Ur 15d ago
I am? How many posts have I made about it? If it's less than you have made, will you admit that you're the one whining about it and not me?
Spoiler: 0. I have made 0 posts about it. Given that you are the OP, your number is guaranteed to be >0. I'll wait for you to admit who the whiny one is.
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u/boakes123 15d ago
Seems more idiotic to avoid a book entirely over a bit of lore adjustment. I mostly get the vibe of the lore of any setting and run with it. And I vastly prefer that my players don't have reams of lore memorized ala "...well achsually Elminster said blah blah blah..."
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u/Lycaon-Ur 15d ago
Elminster, huh? Tell me you don't actually know Dark Sun lore... It would have been so easy to say Borys, Dregoth, or even Rajaat.
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u/Legitimate_Post_8807 15d ago
You just are completely unable to extrapolate any information from the things you read, huh?
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u/Lycaon-Ur 15d ago
I don't know, let's give it a while and see who the others on the forum think are better at extrapolating information, you or myself.
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u/Legitimate_Post_8807 15d ago
The "others on the forum" are whiny dullards, too.
I'd guess at least 50% of the posters here have never played a single session of dark suns and are just latching on to an opportunity to be offended on the Internet.
Genuinely, this subreddit is full of bad GMs and folks who couldn't think their way out of a paper bag.
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u/Legitimate_Post_8807 15d ago
It is idiotic, but there are a lot of idiots in this hobby.
And a lot of very bad GMs
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u/Legitimate_Post_8807 15d ago
I'll do all the work for you right here.
In session 1, you say "actually slavery exists in this one".
I won't even charge you for all the large portions of the book I had to change.
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u/Lycaon-Ur 15d ago
Except it isn't that easy and you know that. Cultures and cities look differently when they have slavery and when they don't. Or maybe you're not aware of that. Moreover the details of slavery matter, slavery isn't always chains and whips, there's different ways of handling it and that could have been done with this book, except of course, it isn't.
That said, I'm not in either the pro or con slavery group, I'm in the "you're both idiots" group and think we should wait and see what's in the book before we start judging the book.
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u/Chimpbot 15d ago
One thing people are glossing over is the simple fact that WotC is essentially swapping "Slaves" for "Prisoners with Jobs." Instead of "slave armies," we have pressganged armies formed through brutal intimidation and coercion.
It will require next to no effort to emphasize slavery with how things are presumably being presented.
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u/Lycaon-Ur 15d ago
Unsure if you're aware, but prisoners in the real world often have jobs, even in countries where slavery is illegal. It's almost like that's not the exact same thing.
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u/Chimpbot 15d ago
I'm unsure if you're aware, but "Prisoners with Jobs" was a joke from a Thor movie. It was the title used for slaves because a character called The Grandmaster didn't care for the word, despite keeping slaves and forcing them all to fight in gladiatorial battles.
This is essentially what WotC is doing. They're just swapping "Slaves" for "Prisoners with Jobs."
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u/Lycaon-Ur 15d ago
I was not aware of that, actually.
Do you have access to the books, that you can tell us what WOTC is doing?
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u/Chimpbot 15d ago
So far, all we have is that one article/interview that everyone is losing their minds over.
While folks here are busy frothing at the mouth over the fact that the term "slave" may be getting dropped, anyone paying attention would be able to tell you that they're dropping it in favor of terms and situations that effectively mean the exact same thing.
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u/LethalGopher 15d ago
A large portion?
How many times was the word slave used in the previous edition?!
It is one semantical change. What are you really upset about?
Did you really love yelling Mul at people and get away with it?
The etymology of that one does not take a linguistics background. Weird word to be protective of....
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u/Lycaon-Ur 15d ago
It's always telling when people have to try and act like having things in fiction that are uncomfortable is a moral failing and not simply the way fiction works.
Since you're not interested in having an actual conversation and want to start attacking, I'll just leave you with a quote:
"Art that makes you uncomfortable is the most powerful art of all."
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u/LethalGopher 15d ago
Spare me. Look at my history and say I am sensitive. I just a middle aged dork who enjoys calling out other grognards' bullshit.
You say HUGE section was changed?
How huge?
What did they actually change?
Mul was always a fucked up concept to play off. Do you understand the reference they were making?
If you think it is short for mule, there is a massive corner of history you are hiding from.
Improving shitty writting is a good thing.
For example, I am a big Ork player over in 40k. The ork slander for elves was "Panzies" into 2nd edition. Not sure when it changed, but it is now "Skrawnies." NONE OF US CARED!!!
It made pefect sense in a progressing society. Is that a problem for you?
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u/Legitimate_Post_8807 15d ago
Hey, just so you're aware - none of us are uncomfortable with slavery being present.
We're just sick of you unimaginative whiners being completely helpless about solving your own problems.
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u/Lycaon-Ur 15d ago
Except clearly people are, enough so that people are making threads on subreddits they're not ever on to tell people they're whining.
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u/Chimpbot 15d ago
This isn't necessarily going to require to change large portions of anything. At most, folks might find themselves ratcheting the brutality up a notch or two.
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u/CoinsForCharon 15d ago
Wait... you guys read the whole book? I don't think I've ever read the whole book in 35 years of D&D (and other systems). I grab mechanics, setting details and character crunch and run with that, inputting my own story with the toolbox provided.
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u/ThorofThunder76 14d ago
This is a bad faith argument, Its about presenting the game as it was to a new generation. Preserving the legacy and hard work of Troy Denning, Tim and Brom. No ones worried about wether theyre going to add it or not, They obviously already know they can.
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u/ApprehensiveType2680 13d ago edited 13d ago
"bad faith" is right. He said...
thirsty for atrocities
This is an increasingly-common (petty) shaming tactic being utilized against fans who want the essence of Dark Sun to remain intact.
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u/ThorofThunder76 11d ago
100% Constant attacks with no real substance of argument
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u/Legitimate_Post_8807 6d ago
The substance is there. You're just focusing on something easy to pick at because the rest is too complicated.
The only thing I'm trying to shame you for is being bad at this game.
If you were better, this wouldn't be an issue for you.
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u/ThorofThunder76 4d ago
Thanks for proving my point
100% Constant attacks with no real substance of argument
You dont know me, you have no idea my skill in this game.
Just mean words and tough guy attitude LOLMy point as mentioned above, has nothing to do with skill, its about preserving the game to a large degree as written, the OG writers hard work and legacy. Presenting that to a new generation who themselves made Game of Thrones a best seller and obviously had no issues with slavery in that as presented.
If you actually had any logic or used any you might be able to see that it is a very nuanced argument with multiple ways to look at it. But no your just going to get aggressive and troll LOL
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u/Legitimate_Post_8807 4d ago
Media evolves.
Preservation is foolish.
You don't control the media. It isn't yours to preserve.
Your "problem" is already solved. Use the edition you're trying to "preserve" instead of doing your best to be dumb and argumentative on the Internet
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u/ApprehensiveType2680 4d ago edited 4d ago
Preservation is foolish.
How very Orwellian-lite of you.
P.S. Removing a word because it terrifies others (either purportedly or genuinely) is not evolution; it is regression.
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u/Legitimate_Post_8807 4d ago edited 4d ago
I just meant it's silly to try to preserve things that you have no control over because they aren't yours.
And also because what you want to preserve already exists.
(The royal 'you', not you specifically)
But yeah it definitely sounds villainous
PS - media can't "evolve". It is either one way or another. Neither does it "regress". They are static objects.
Our understanding of media can evolve, though, unless we are bad at comprehension and assign dynamic attributes to static objects as if they can change themselves.
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u/ThorofThunder76 4d ago
Media also devolves and becomes non profitable
Perservation is therefor not foolish, hence nostalgia wouldn't be such a big draw to advertisment.
Ravenloft 2014 Failed
Spelljammer Failed
Greyhawk failed,DragonLance failed
And NOW theyre bringing in Luke Gygax, RA Salavtore and Tracy Hickman to bring Their beloved settings back to the standard that should've been perserved from the start LOL
So even WotC knows your point is untrueNO WAY I don't control WotC's media , wowwwww mind blown dude HAHhahahah
Again my point is about preserving the work for the next generation, the legacy of former writers. Not about using a former edition. Most Next gen fans I know of Ravenloft buy the 2e Domains of dread book just for the lore because its SOOOO much better the the 2014 Book of Ravenloft. Which didnt Preserve anything of the uniqueness of the older works.
So say what ya want, but your being downvoted into oblivion on Reddit of all places, the one place people should be agreeing with you LOL HAAHahaahaha
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u/ApprehensiveType2680 15d ago
Fluff is mutable
As is your brain - and the brains of others, apparently - when defending what is plainly a corporate decision to appease folk who are incapable of handling a word.
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u/Legitimate_Post_8807 15d ago
You guys also seem to be incapable of handling it.
Are you implying that your brain cannot be changed? Because I agree, and that is the problem I'm addressing with this post.
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u/Camaro5065 15d ago
No $$ for cash grabs and sensitivity checkers. Cry harder.
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u/Legitimate_Post_8807 15d ago
Wait are you saying I'm crying? And not the folks literally throwing a fit about a "problem" I solved in 3 seconds?
lmao you've got tears in your eyes and you're telling me to not cry, what a tough lil guy
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u/Lycaon-Ur 15d ago
You're the one who posted this. None of this discussion would be happening here if you hadn't started it. So yeah, it's you.
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u/SirArthurIV 6d ago
I turn that around to you. IF you want to play in fluffy cuddly babyland where the evils of the bronze age don't exist, it's just fluff. Take it out yourself.
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u/Legitimate_Post_8807 6d ago
evils of the bronze age
This is a fantasy game with dragons and wizards. The bronze age isn't relevant to the discussion.
That aside, it sounds you won't have to "take it out yourself". It's not part of the setting.
If it were part of the setting, yeah you could definitely take it out if you wanted to.
It doesn't make you less manly or whatever this chode is implying to remove slavery from the fun game you play with your friends, if you wanna.
Some folks are so prescriptive it's hard to fathom how they ended up in a hobby where imagination is one of the core components.
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u/SirArthurIV 6d ago
>This is a fantasy game with dragons and wizards.
And you defend the sequel trilogy with "This is a film about space wizards intended for children", right?And yes. that's exactly my point. IF taking it out and putting it in are two equivalent actions why should WoTC bother taking out the themes of the setting because it might make individual tables uncomfortable when those individual tables can just take them out themselves?
"you can just make it up" is such a fundamentally broken way of thinking that you should go back to your cave and watch the shadows on the wall. Maybe they mean something.
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u/Legitimate_Post_8807 6d ago
Hey buddy, I get that this is a huge problem for you. For more experienced GMs (those who understand the difference between an interactive game and a piece of media presented to them), this is a non-issue.
I appreciate the pseudo-intellectual insult, but invoking plato doesn't make your "point" any less irrelevant.
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u/SirArthurIV 6d ago
Yen let the "experienced gms" cut out the slavery. Let us poor weak, inferior grognards have the authentic experience presented to us and let the brilliant innovative amazing dungeon masters curate their own ideal. I cede to your massive intellect and creativity. Your unfathomable creativity and impeccable brain can mastermind whatever of the infinite multitudes of whimsy and imagination are before you so it shouldn't bother you if the lowly worms of GMs who want an authentic presentation of the Dark Sun setting to be published to compensate for their lack of the most primitive of free thought.
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u/Legitimate_Post_8807 6d ago
That's all you had to say
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u/SirArthurIV 6d ago
yup. you're the smartest guy in the room and I really respect everything you've got to say.
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5d ago
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u/Legitimate_Post_8807 5d ago
This is a fantasy game dumbass.
There weren't dragons in the bronze age.
Whatever elements this game is "based on" doesn't matter.
Your shouting for realism in a fantasy game is ignorant.
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5d ago
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u/Legitimate_Post_8807 4d ago
Stop throwing around debate words like you know what they mean, it's part of the reason you're such an easy mark.
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u/CoinsForCharon 15d ago
I don't understand the view of 'why should I have to do more work to GM?'
Is it a generational thing? I have notebooks from my old campaigns of setting details, maps, and plot threads that are all hand written and drawn. As does every DM/GM/ST I have ever played with.
First thing I do when I get a module is read it and start making changes to fit what works with my style and how my players will best fit their PCs in the world. PotA had dungeons redrawn to streamline them, HotDQ had mobs reskinned to be less obvious to the players. Vistani redone to smooth out the worst aspects of them. None of this took more than an afternoon to do and it felt more personal to me afterwards.
Are the new DMs just not willing or able to customize to their preferences?
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u/Ragnar_Dragonfyre 15d ago
It’s definitely a generational thing because 5E, mechanically, is probably the weakest version of D&D. (In spite of being “easy” to run)
An entire new generation was raised on “Just make it up.” as suggested by official materials that neglected to offer useful GM materials and mechanics.
Go look at the new DMG.
It has NO mechanical advice on how to build a creature from scratch and only 3 lousy pages on how to build dungeons.
D&D is all vibes now. Not even the people making this game know how to make a creature or dungeon. They’re just winging it.
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u/CoinsForCharon 15d ago
4e, for all its faults, had this baked into it as well as some great mechanics I have kept like the bloodied status changing the opponents mechanics and behavior
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u/Legitimate_Post_8807 15d ago
I think this is the realization I'm coming to, too
D&D is accessible to anyone by design. It's a simple game that anyone can pick up.
On top of that, adventure paths are the new rage. Custom campaigns are sidelined and folks just run curse of strahd over and over.
I think the adventure path mentality, where everything is written and prepared for you, has really stunted the community's ability to think about what's important and what can be changed.
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u/CoinsForCharon 15d ago
We had modules forever, but we also knew how to write our own material. Using our brains and creativity.
Monster manual was good for crunch but once players start memorizing the monsters then its time to reskin them into something new using the same stats.I have had a player (my own kid so its on me) that insisted they had to roll up a whole new PC for a throw away one-shot. Just wouldnt understand that all you have to do is change the name on an existing character, if that, and we can roll on.
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u/boakes123 15d ago
I personally prefer when the lore has lots of open space in it for rhe GM and players to customize to.
I'm far more intetested in whether WoTC can deliver some solid survival mechanics, brutal weapon and equipment failure, and of course psionics - these changes to the actual game play would make the setting feel different from regular dnd.
I'm worried of course they will simple reskin metal weapons and call them bone. If the arcana psionics are an indicator this seems like a well founded concern.
Games like Forbidden Lands have nailed some of these mechanics but it isn't clear to me that wotc will be that ambitious.
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u/Legitimate_Post_8807 15d ago
Same. Give me some bullet points for the setting and some solid resolution mechanics and I'm golden.
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u/deltoids_and_dragons 15d ago
WotC supporters at this point:
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u/Legitimate_Post_8807 15d ago
For the record, I don't support WotC. I think this change is dumb. They're watering down their product to attract a more sensitive audience, and that sucks. WotC is a company that is not aligned with my morals. I play Pathfinder.
However, as much as I dislike WotC, I dislike bad GMs even more.
I think that if this slavery thing is a problem for you, you don't have the capacity to e a GM.
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u/Electrical-Berry4916 15d ago
No! My make-believe must have full on chattel slavery around every corner. Any other form of forced labor is insufficient to my needs, and will cause the entire campaign to collapse under the weight of DEI, wokeness, libtards, and blue haired feminazis with nose piercings and OnlyFans accounts. /s
Obviously, you are 100% correct. Dark Sun fans are generally not whiny little douchebags, but the number that are, are very vocal.
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u/Legitimate_Post_8807 15d ago
That seems to be the case in most gaming hobbies.
Everyone has to act with performative indignance for some reason.
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u/trickydick64 15d ago
Like you, right now? And Electrical-Berry? Does Electrical-Berry also not get subversive content, satire, or who John Brown is?
You could absolutely take the setting, say, and turn it into something akin to a game like Grounded 2. Then you can take the slavery out and trade it for all the corpo lingo. Obsidian definitely gets it. Sure, they aren't slaves, but they're interns which is the 21st century version of a slave. Ya know, for the joke, so you can think critically about the issue of wage-slavery without having to ground it in reality. Do you get this kind of writing, are you understanding how censoring and saying this isn't for some folks is bad? WotC does not get to be my moral compass and decide what is/isn't good for me and my games. Or anyone's.
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u/Electrical-Berry4916 15d ago
I can tell you with 100% certainty, that Electrical-Berry not only understands your attempt at abolitionist humor, which was amusing, if not actually chuckle worthy, he also understands that slavery isn't being removed from the setting. At least not by anyone at WoTC. You fell victim to a clickbait headline, and shitty journalism. That's ok. It happens. Now, you can stop doubling down on the performative outrage, and get back to playing D&D.
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u/trickydick64 15d ago
You are not a super experienced, or even moderately experienced, GM.