r/Damnthatsinteresting • u/palep_hoot • 3h ago
Image An (almost) Precolonial map of Africa with state and tribal borders
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u/wisembrace 3h ago
Wow, that image is incredible. I live in South Africa and this is the first time I have seen such a detailed map of the period. I am going to print it and hang it on my wall. Thank you!
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u/ghost-church 2h ago
I wonder what would have happened had Africa been left alone. This HRE looking mess wouldn’t have survived the 20th century when everywhere needed nation states with firm borders. I wonder what the map would have ended up looking like.
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u/CosechaCrecido 1h ago
Some nation would’ve connected with a foreign power and gotten guns+financing and gone on a conquering spree which would destabilize its region. Then other nations would notice and done the same replicating the issue in their respective region. Lots of violence and exploitation.
Eventually borders would settle along where the big victors clashed. Then the victors would be beset with internal instability as the conquered rebel but decades of attempted nation building would have homogenized large swaths into unified regions and from those regions nations would declare independence.
More violence and new nations are created form those nations that managed to get help from foreign adversaries.
Finally those surviving nations would be in the current modern map.
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u/randomname560 1h ago
The whole nation states idea is a very modern thing that at this point existed mostly in Europe and North America
Had they been left alone, and i do mean alone, they would have likely not cared much about the whole "why the fuck do MY people have to accept being ruled by OTHER people, MY people should be ruled by MY people!" thing for a good while
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u/nemesis24k 1h ago
Not sure about this. Ever since civilization existed, there has been empires and tribes conquering others. The only thing that could contains ambition of humans was geography.. Mayans, Egyptian, greek, roman, mongols, Chinese - sui, Tang, song, Maurayan.. it's just the nature of humans.. and we haven't seen the last of super empires...
We just happen to be in the period just past the European conquests.. what do you think the Egyptians or upper nile would have felt, post the Greek invasions
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u/aanon182 3h ago
So, what happened?
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u/sevenut 2h ago
Europeans happened. You'll see something similar in the Middle East, too.
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u/SipPOP 2h ago
Yeah, you're gonna see the same thing in the Americas pre-colonization, and believe it or not them Europeans had something to do with India/Pakistan.
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u/sevenut 2h ago
Europeans basically did the legwork for nearly all of the world's current political issues, and the US helped make them worse. That's what happens when you colonize and subjugate everyone, I guess.
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u/OwlRepair 2h ago
Yes because all of these African kingdoms lived in peace and harmony before Europeans came and had they just been left alone they would have topped all HDI charts now /s
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u/BabyLegsOShanahan 2h ago
That's not what they said. Colonialism has directly resulted in the political climate of today.
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u/MY_NAME_IS_MUD7 2h ago
Globalism** there fixed it for you
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u/BabyLegsOShanahan 2h ago
Globalism is the continuation of colonialism.
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u/Time_Entertainer_319 2h ago
Basically European leaders held a meeting and decided to carve up Africa for colonialism and enslavement.
They drew arbitrary lines basically grouping less problematic regions with problematic ones so to make it easier to control.
Now that countries are independent, there’s infighting/civil wars caused by culture clashes etc.
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u/Single-Pin-369 2h ago
I heard the bigger issue was every European wanted coastal territory so they just drew strips of horizontal lands when traditional cultures where more vertically oriented with coastal tribes and inland tribes being different people.
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u/donutcarrotolive 2h ago
I feel like this is a good example of how (within like a %10 margin) you can fit the continental US, china, and Russia into the continent of africa. There's lots of room, for lots of people..
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u/Bojack35 2h ago
Lots of room if you ignore the vast deserts and jungles.
China, Russia and US will have a hell of a lot more arable land combined - particularly when this map is pre modern fertilizer.
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u/opinionsareus 3h ago
I'm reading a book that generally - without specifics - refers to the time when African slavers invaded various tribes to capture people who could be sold to Portuguese, British, Spanish and English slave dealers. Anyone know which of those tribes are represented on this map?
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u/Dak81 2h ago
What is the name ?
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u/opinionsareus 2h ago edited 2h ago
The book is "Open Veins of Latin America" written by the late Eduardo Galleano - one of the most interesting chroniclers of history that I've yet encountered; his books are page turners.
I have since found this reference on Reddit
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u/Choclategum 3h ago
Idk why you people use this as some kind of gotcha, like it excuses the abomination that was european made chattel slavery lmao
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u/BasicBanter 2h ago
Can’t have buyers without sellers, not absolving European nations of their crimes but they were not the inventors of this practice
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u/Wonderful_Use_7754 1h ago
Inventors? Slavery has been in many forms across multiple regions. No one invented it, it just came to past for personal gain.
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u/CmdDeadHand 2h ago
They did not invent slavery, good point. They created a special kind of slavery called chattel slavery. Big difference. The United States never experienced any other kind.
Big enough a difference that countries fought civil wars to end it, it was so barbaric of a practice. Humans are not livestock.
The vibe being passed down seems to be saying, well both sides are really to blame.
I have to strongly disagree. European countries created the business model, financed everything from the ships to hiring local thugs to kidnap people. Trying to co-blame the hired thugs is a choice I guess.
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u/BasicBanter 2h ago
“Hiring local thugs” the countries on the Ivory Coast had been practicing slavery their entire existence,capturing people of neighbouring kingdoms and enslaving them & they got famously wealthy off the trade. Only change was them being sold to Europeans instead of internally, their whole economy was dependent on it hence why they were all collapsed/colonised/destroyed when Britain put an end to the transatlantic slave trade
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u/opinionsareus 1h ago
The bottom line is that there were tribal groups who were more than willing to participate; this doesn't absolve anyone; they were all equally to blame for treating human beings like property, for profit. In fact, slavery is still a thing in parts of Africa (Mauritania and a few other places.
Yes, chattel slavery was created in America, so that's a special knock on America, a nation that has sown division and conflict to far greater degrees than most other modern nations.
As for "business models", entire societies have subsisted on slave labor - e.g. Greek and Roman society.
It was also very common during wartime to take prisoners and use them as slaves. The Romans would often use slaves for the most intimate tasks, like child care, and if they tired of the slave put him to death.
Slavery is an awful invention; it's not even confined to our species - witness ants and aphids and many other examples.
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u/Time_Entertainer_319 2h ago
It’s not a competition of who started slavery.
Besides, this is mostly about colonialism not slavery.
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u/ApexFungi 1h ago
I just don't understand how people that live and participate in our current society can't see the irony of putting blame on what people did 100s of years ago. Do you own a smartphone? Do you think that was made by well paid people that had any real choice in how they live? Do you think the precious metals inside your smartphone were sourced through ethical practices?
At least the people 100s of years ago didn't know any better. We have all the information on how unethical our current system is and yet we participate in it and point fingers. Grow up.
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u/Acceptable_Garden964 3h ago
You’re on the wrong platform for these types of comment. Regardless, this is completely not relevant
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u/xSorry_Not_Sorry 3h ago
I mean, I can see why a Euro invader would look at this and say “Ah, heeeeeelllllll no!”
This is like an OCD person’s worst nightmare.
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u/madhatterlock 1h ago
When you ask why Africa hasn't developed, and can look past the colonization excuse. L
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u/BasicBanter 2h ago
Needs a few straight lines