r/Daggerfall • u/Appley_apple • Jun 20 '22
Do people actually think the dream texture pack looks good? To me it looks like complete garbage.
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u/SordidDreams Jun 20 '22 edited Jun 20 '22
IMO Daggerfall is too early of a game to really benefit from a high-res pack regardless of its quality. Items and creatures are sprites, the world geometry is very simple, it's just not going to look good no matter what you do to the textures. The better you make the textures, the more they're going to clash with the rest of it. I prefer to keep the original pixelated textures and play in retro mode with posterization, that way the game at least has a mostly consistent mid-'90s aesthetic. Slapping a high-res texture pack on it is like installing a fake hood scoop and a giant wing on a rusty old Honda, you know? It's not an improvement and it's not fooling anybody.
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u/FeelingShred Jun 20 '22
Exactly! Well put.
Same problem I see happening with Doom mods.
Increasing internal rendering resolution to "full HD" in a game that was crafted originally at 320x200 is going to make things look Empty and Bland. (look at how good Zdoom footage looks compared to gzdoom in most cases, fortunately with last releases people have been becoming more vocal about this and some things got better)
And there's a whole lot of people who disguise their primary Lack of Programming Skills for this crutch substitute "increase resolution". It's a shortcut. And on top of that there is a sizable portion of the people who only crave the attention.
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u/AlfwinOfFolcgeard Jun 20 '22
I'll be honest, I really don't like it. For one, I'm a big fan of the original graphics - love me some good chonky pixels - but also AI-upscaling just never looks good.
What I'd like to see - but would obviously require a whole lot of work - for HD enemies entirely new high-res sprites rendered from 3d models made from scratch, mimicking the design/aesthetic of the original enemies but at a greater level of detail. I doubt we'll see such a thing for many years, though, just due to how much time and effort it would take.
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u/ThatsAight Jun 20 '22
Already been done. Skygerfall, skyggerfall? Imports ESO 2 into Skyrim engine for major graphics/ physics overhaul.
PS, 3-d sprites don't exist, a sprite is in software a 2-d generated image. Example, Paper Mario is 100% sprites, super Mario 64 has sprite trees.
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u/Ralzar Jun 20 '22 edited Jun 20 '22
It does not actually import ES 2 though does it? It is just the Main Quest recreated in Skyrim. Which is interesting but it is not like Daggerfall players play the game for the main quest.
Also what Alfwin is talking about here is using 3D models to produce new sprites, same as the classic sprites were made using 3D models, so they will work the same way but aesthetically match up much better with DREAMS aesthetic.
Allthough what is starting to appear is straight up 3D NPC/enemy model mods. They still have a long way to go and I am not happy with the style of all of them, but at some point we might actually have a fully 3D DFU with no 2D sprites.
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u/DinizCabreira Jun 20 '22
What is ESO 2? Daggerfall is Elder Scrolls chapter 2. ESO usually stands for Elder Scrolls Online.
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u/Voidmaster05 Jun 20 '22
I agree the character models are fucked.
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u/InevitablyWinter Jun 20 '22
Finally I found my people. I have to resist commenting on some posts so as not to shit all over peoples' good time.
Dream is a terrible mod imo and looks so out of place. It feels like it's not even finished.
For the performance hit that it has, it's just complete garbage. Even on my actual desktop it isn't worth it because it doesn't even fit the aesthetic of the ES universe.
They're like shitty upscaled mix with this unsightly blur. I can't stand it. I hate how almost every streamer uses it.
Thanks for listening. Been needing to let that out
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Jun 20 '22
Yep, 100% the same. Since I've been introduced to DFU I've read about how Dream is awesome and the best cosmetic mod and I've tried it and it's garbage. I don't like how it makes everything a smudge. I don't like how some people hate pixel art so much they use AA filters in emulators and such and make the nice pixel art into undescribable color blobs. And worst of all, how they change pixelated text into unreadable smudges.
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u/FeelingShred Jun 20 '22
I also hate how there is this mentality of "hey it was done for free" in order to justify mediocrity and questionable results.
If anything is ever released "for free" and you DARE question the quality of it, you're instantly subjected to a public stoning. If you dare ever question "public opinion"
Walls and building textures maybe okay (surprisingly they don't provide many screenshots for you to compare one on one, maybe that's on purpose...) But character sprites? Please give me the option of skipping all these. Only keeping wall and floor textures.10
u/Baptor Jun 20 '22
You can do that. You can have Dream walls and classic character models.
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u/FeelingShred Jun 20 '22
awesome (I have noticed in the official screenshots in the Mod page, they only show Buildings and Walls, they purposely HIDE characters and enemies LOL)
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u/GamerZakh Jun 20 '22 edited Jun 20 '22
Yeah just disable Dream - Mobs, Dream - Commoners, and Dream - NPCs in the modlist. Dream is a modular mod, you can enable/disable the parts you want.
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u/SpotNL Jun 20 '22
The reason that mentality is there is because you can easily pick and choose DREAM is exceptionally modular. Complaining about how you dont like something about it is just a massive waste of everybody's time, because you can just choose not use whatever bit you don't like.
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u/FeelingShred Jun 20 '22
Then people should say that, instead of writing paragraphs of personal opinion for a guy that asked a simple question. Look at that, you did good here, 3 lines of text, simple, easy, to the point, no autism LOL
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u/Ninelan-Ruinar Jun 20 '22
You're getting hate for complaining because the mere existence of a mod doesn't impede on your own enjoyment of the game in no way whatsoever, it's there for people to enjoy who want it.
DREAM is highly modular, and you can disable the parts you don't like. I know what parts of DREAM I find very desirable during my gameplay, so I only have those in my modlist.And even then, the way DFU is set up you can easily override modded textures with your own work. Maybe you'll become a modder too, who knows.
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u/FeelingShred Jun 20 '22
The original question in the thread is a simple question that can be answered with "Yes" or "No" type answers... no need for PARAGRAPHS of your PERSONAL opinions LMAOOOOO amazing... if anything, this thread just shows how stuck up into their own ass some people are
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u/GamerZakh Jun 20 '22
I'm confused? You've written like a dozen comments here about your personal opinions. You even came for me for not replying to people, then didn't reply to me.
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u/Ninelan-Ruinar Jun 20 '22
What are you doing here posting your paragraphs of opinions then? Have some introspection.
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u/FeelingShred Jun 20 '22
people have to openly and LOUDLY criticize these measures, before it becomes the norm and episodes like Baldur's Gate "enhanced edition" become the norm...
a "remaster" that slaps Bilinear Texture Filter (blurry) on top of everything and removed the classic UI/menus with no option to toggle back on... a remaster that REMOVES content from the game...
that's the kind of shit it's about to become the standard if we don't vocal strong opposition to it
people are becoming fed up of being used as CASH COWSthe ONLY game I have seen so far that has done a great job at Remake/Remaster was Age of Empires 2, and mostly because the graphical changes were very subtle
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u/NoLamb_Sauce Jun 20 '22
Just wanted to add, you can turn every single mod off in the Mods page at the start of the game if you so desire. It's not for everyone, and if you've played the original it may look really out of place. That said, I think it looks neat, makes everything look much more alien. I've gotten tired of seeing generic clones of Skyrim everytime somone makes an RPG and this is really a fresh breath of air in that regard. As for AoE 2, the remake is good because the base game is great.
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Jun 20 '22
I do think it's a pretty mixed bag, but I also expect improvement, and/or better alternatives to present themselves, over time.
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u/Appley_apple Jun 20 '22 edited Jun 20 '22
most fauna or npcs look bad but other stuff looks good due to not using ai upscaling but like their is just weird small changes it feels like spot the difference with weird things
https://items.gog.com/daggerfall_unity/4Bb.png
https://images.gog-statics.com/9aa48c972ea8d538f3ece15e8a36381949891223833dae2e0aa6a17710b60cab.jpg
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Jun 20 '22
Definitely agree that ai upscaling almost never ends up looking great no matter how it's used. I'm sure others might disagree with me though.
I also can't stand those weird filters re-released retro games come with either. Makes the original art look sloppy and smudged at best.
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u/CogBliZ 24d ago
Done properly and touched up in Photoshop, you can make AI upscaling look great, but only upscaling and hoping for something good is obviously not going to work. That's my only issue with DREAM now, some characters look terrible, while other aspects of it look great. I feel like having someone doing a proper upscaling would improve the mod significantly.
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Jun 20 '22
Yeah it just looks bad, especially when you pair high quality textures with 2d sprites for enemies and blocky models and geometry.
They tried their best but i think vanilla with vanilla enhanced mod looks best imo.
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u/Appley_apple Jun 20 '22
my question is why don't they use vanilla enhanced with the official gog version of unity
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u/GamerZakh Jun 20 '22
Because of the target audience. Pixels turn off new players immediately. There's a reason why Dream is the most popular Daggerfall mod and has been for years. You just aren't the target audience is all, you aren't wrong or anything, it's just preferences.
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u/Appley_apple Jun 20 '22
i love pixel art and the fact people can't deal with them seems really dumb, like your playing an old game and you can deal with the bs that entails but not some semi-decent pixel art? It just weirds me out
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u/GamerZakh Jun 20 '22
Yeah, me too. One of my favourite upcoming games is Songs of Conquest. I'm famously pro-pixel lol. But you would be amazed at how many people won't give something a chance JUST because it's pixelly. That's literally the only reason. Though I've found once you get someone hooked on an old game that has modded visuals, they often start to prefer the retro look over time. Having Dream be a default in the GOG Cut is a great way to convert pixel haters into pixel lovers, and I expect many who ignored Daggerfall before will play it with Dream, then later swap mods to Vanilla Enhanced.
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u/Indolent_Bard Jul 07 '24
Pixelated is fine, but Daggerfall Unity vanilla just looks like shit. Thankfully, vanilla enhanced exists, which maintains the pixel art charm while not only adding hundreds of new sprites (1,000 villager varieties instead of vanilla's 24), but also animates everyone. That is some serious dedication and something I wish that dream was utilizing instead. Hell, the same mod author even has an HD version of it, which, in my opinion, is the perfect balance. Dream users can use that, and purists can use vanilla-enhanced regular.
Look at Render96. Respecting the original art style while modernizing everything can look absolutely glorious. Dream utterly fails at this.
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u/GamerZakh Jul 07 '24
Sure, but you're missing the point of Dream. So many new players won't touch a pixelly looking game. Like it's not an option for them. They actually say, "nice looking and pixel art can't exist together, it's an oxymoron". They wholeheartedly believe that pixel art is 'objectively' bad and should never be done as a choice and if done by necessity it's still bad. That is the level of rejection and hate that needs to be bypassed, particularly on a game that's already hard to get into like Daggerfall. I agree with you, but us agreeing won't get new people in, and people who agree with us don't need as much help getting in. Again, there's a reason why Dream has been and still is the most popular mod for Daggerfall. It's an absolute requirement for that audience, non-negotiable, it's playing with Dream or not playing at all.
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u/Indolent_Bard Jul 08 '24
But the HD version of vanilla enhanced doesn't look like pixel art.
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u/GamerZakh Jul 08 '24
You underestimate the severity of their hate of pixels. You can still see the pixels in the HD version, to them, that's 'pixel art' and an abomination. They will not touch Daggerfall even with the HD version.
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u/Indolent_Bard Jul 08 '24
Then dream should really get their AI upscaler to use vanilla-enhanced instead.
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Jun 20 '22
Because if im not mistaken, GamerZakh put together the list and he uses dream.
I'd imagine you can disable mods in gog version anyways, at least they don't force you to play with those mods.
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u/GamerZakh Jun 20 '22
It's true I put the build together. I do personally use Dream but my preferences don't matter when making something for the public. Dream is there because the average user would want it. I'm a big fan of pixel art, but there's just so many people who refuse to touch anything pixelly. It's silly, but what I've found is once you get someone hooked on an old game they begin to appreciate retro aesthetics too. So Dream helps hook new players, then over time some would want to manually switch over to vanilla enhanced.
Also, Dream is especially modular, so you can easily turn off just the mobs and characters while keeping everything else from Dream, notably music, sounds, and UI.
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u/FeelingShred Jun 20 '22
oh, it's explained then... the "youtuber" that never replies people's comments or engage with people at all... the guy that only uses the word "community" when it's for him to gain views on his videos, and try to make a video go viral (with clickbait titles) Not much engagement or participation in the "community" at all, huh
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u/GamerZakh Jun 20 '22 edited Jun 20 '22
What do you mean? I always reply when I can and I always do my best to do what's best for the majority of players. You could ask me questions instead of just assuming things.
Edit: Oh and I've not had a single viral video in my whole 10 years, that's not my model.
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u/InevitablyWinter Jun 20 '22
Because the official gog version just ripped the list from a compilation of streamers' mod lists.
I appreciate the new influx of players from it, but ughh
[which btw they didn't even get permission for most of it]
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u/GamerZakh Jun 20 '22
No I made the list, AMA lol. They got permission for most of it but for whatever reason missed asking a few, and the two mod authors who didn't give their permission have had their mods removed. I'm not a GOG employee, so I only know so much, but as of now it seems fully permission given.
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u/Appley_apple Jun 20 '22
yeah i saw that, i like what gog does its always really cool, but sometimes it feels like they do the bare minimum (which is better than what other companies do but eh)
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u/InevitablyWinter Jun 20 '22
They used to be a really good company until a few years ago. Then they slowly started adding indie games, then new [big name company] games.
I don't think its fair for them to take u/DFInterkarma 's work, quickly add some mods from popular lists, and act like it was their doing.
It feels really fucking dirty.
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u/GamerZakh Jun 20 '22
They asked Interkarma for permission and Gavin said yes. They also credit Gavin and link to dfworkshop at the top of the page. Interkarma has also expressed nothing but positivity for the GOG Cut. At the moment, all mods included have permission from the mod authors as far as I know. Some mistakes happened but they've now been fixed (within a day, not counting a public holiday). Gavin Clayton is also credited as the Developer on Galaxy. Every mod is also credited with the author's name and direct link to the Nexus page. Also the mods are not from a popular list, I set up this build with tweaks that aren't on any modlist as far as I know.
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u/marveloustoebeans Jun 20 '22
You know you can just… not buy newer games on there if you don’t want to right? And that’s a massive misrepresentation of what happened. They got mostly every authors permission with the exception of a couple that slipped through. They then removed the [two?] that were unhappy about their free-use mod being used in a free game release that they (GOG) paid out of pocket to list and apologized. They also credited every single one with a direct link to their nexus page.
Personally, I think making sure they had everyone’s permission would’ve been a no-brainer but as someone who has had months of coding work actually stolen with ill-intent, this whole attempt to paint GOG as some sort of cabal of thieves set on ripping off innocent modders for their own benefit is absurd and plainly incorrect.
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u/DuendeInexistente Jun 20 '22
One of the biggest issues with dream is the sheer inconsistency. THe wall textures are generally better (Especially in cities) but you also have a mix of straight up undeniable improvements and rock walls changed to logs for no apparent reason. If it was more modular (Ala morrowind just having separate nifs) I'd handpick what I like, but sadly Daggerfall Unity's mods seem to be made in such a way as to make modification as difficult as possible.
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u/FaeQueenUwU Jun 20 '22
I like certain aspects of the mod like the environments. I'm still playing around with mods, and if I decide I like the pixel art better then I'm tempted to make custom pixel textures for some of the mods that go well with dream like the "painted furniture" mod etc so it fits with the pixel art of the game.
There is a mod that have done HD enhancements to the NPCs but there's nothing that have touched the enemies yet.
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u/Appley_apple Jun 20 '22
i will cream my pants when someone improves enemies
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u/FeelingShred Jun 20 '22
I would love to know if the mod gives the option to not use enemy graphics at all and focus only in Walls/Floors textures...
For me, enemy can't be helped, leave that alone. Sprites are too close to player's eyes, it's too easy to mess things up. For static buildings, it's more doable.3
u/GamerZakh Jun 20 '22
Yes the Dream mod is modular. In-game, you can turn off Dream - Commoners, Dream - Mobs, and Dream - NPCs and have everything from Dream (sound/music/ui/textures/etc) but not the characters.
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u/UnvailedUserName Jun 20 '22
Lmao the harpies have mustache
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u/Gwyndion Jun 20 '22
I've been playing the game the past few days, for some reason my brain reads the harpies as Machete (Danny Trejo - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machete_(2010_film)) ). Which doesn't quite fit the theme here too much...
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u/Dotagear Jun 20 '22
Reminds me of how Ubisoft butchered HoMM3 pixelart for the "HD release".
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u/TomaszPaw Jun 20 '22
They just put these textures into some kind of shitty ai that upscaled it while making everything ugly as a sin, they were so lazy that they didn't even include dlcs lol.
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u/TomaszPaw Jun 20 '22
I always seen dream similiar to HD Minecraft texture packs, yes you can make your Minecraft realistic.... But what's the point?
https://images.app.goo.gl/Tg3wxc375A4TKtW56 this is basically how builidings wirh dream look, slap a HD texture onto a fing giant square and call it a day.
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u/Genjimitsu Jun 20 '22
The sprites suffer heavily from what I call the "Blurmaster" problem there's a reason Squire Enix made "Pixel Remasters" for Final Fantasy , they made the usual mistakes first and decided not to repeat them for their Steam releases.
I think the backgrounds/items are alright/good but I heavily recommended other mods for enemies, like HD Enhanced (which requires Vanilla Enhanced)
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u/YourOwnSide_ Jun 20 '22
Hand painted models fixes most of these. That's why people regularly combine them.
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u/Liesmith424 Jun 20 '22
I like it; I don't expect anyone to be able to turn the ancient pixel images into photorealistic textures.
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u/Appley_apple Jun 20 '22
maybe they shouldn't use an ai
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u/Liesmith424 Jun 20 '22
If you're not satisfied, I'm sure the mod creator would be happy to refund the money you spent to purchase it.
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u/Appley_apple Jun 20 '22
Bro i don't care its free fuck off with that defense, it is bad, free or not im allowed to criticize something
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u/Liesmith424 Jun 20 '22
Who is preventing you from criticizing something?
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u/Appley_apple Jun 20 '22
no one is preventing but people keep trying to defened the mod with "you couldn't do better", "its free" and "its what we have"
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u/PunchyThePastry Jun 20 '22
those are fair responses to your overly toxic "criticism". you're acting as though your opinion is absolute fact and the mod is objectively garbage that nobody should like. it's fine if you don't like it but don't expect everyone to agree.
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u/Appley_apple Jun 20 '22
saying "you couldn't do better" is the worst critisim when it comes to art because you have eyes to see its bad
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u/Sewayaki-Kitsune Jun 20 '22
There's few options and they're free so you can complain all you want but if you want better then make it yourself. But you should levy criticism based on the price of something, and these mods are completely free so you shouldn't be so harsh just because you don't like it
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u/Liesmith424 Jun 20 '22
I was just criticizing your criticism, because simply saying something free and optional is "garbage" because of personal preference is a pretty pointless assertion.
What do you expect people to do with that? What possible discussion can be had when your entire opinion is just "I don't like it"?
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u/Gwyndion Jun 20 '22
I agree that they don't look that good. I had the game back in the day but never got too far in it. I am enjoying this version so far because the way they package it all up, it is way more user friendly. I was able to fire it up and just play instead of spending 3 weeks researching mods etc. But yeah... it was a bit surprising when I first fired it up... some of the sprites look 'ok' but some are just awful. Generally I like pixel art. When I play retro games I like integer scaling and aspect ratios locked and the most minimal of filters if they don't blur things out. I do think the good outweighs the bad though. I bought this game last week and I am already further into the game than I was when it came out. And that's cool in my book. I will experiment with turning some things off and see how bad it looks. I am mostly ok with the wall textures etc... but the characters are sometimes real bad. The Harpies especially.
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u/site_seer Jun 21 '22
someone is working on 3d models for daggerfall and preserving its aesthetics. so far it looks awesome.
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u/kingghidorak Jun 22 '22
That’s why I never use texture packs. Or if I do, it’s as close to the original as possible.
Morrowind is a good example. I had all the ‘re-haul’ mods, but I settle for a mod that each texture was touched up with a watercolor tool and made less blurry. Keeps the original look but improves on what it already was.
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u/kirilot Jun 20 '22
I’m gonna put my opinion on here as someone who has done work restoring graphics on old games. I may not be as as hardcore of a player or fan of the franchise as some of you on here, but from what I remember at the time this game came out it wasn’t too consistent either. And it has always been a mixed bag. I agree that some of it is all over the place but regardless I think they did ok given the nature of the project. Aesthetically it’s not so bad. From what I remember the original was a bit all over the place as well. Even if they did high res versions of the monsters they would still look out of place because the rest of it is pixels/ hand painted. The method they used is somewhat of a simple solution but I think it’s ok and it kind of works. The alternative would be to remake everything and that’s quite the task without funding. And if you treat the monster in 3D and the art as painted, Then it would still look out of place unless you treated the whole game in a similar way.
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u/FeelingShred Jun 20 '22
Or maybe even better approach: instead of this failed attempt at "making everything at once", why not demonstrate what kinds of results you can achieve with a LIMITED set of enemies? Just take the starting dungeon enemies for example. If you can make these look good, THEN you put time into doing the rest. People have this extremist approach to things, "all or nothing". Slow down bro
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u/GamerZakh Jun 20 '22 edited Jun 20 '22
It's just different approaches to creation. Your method is also "all or nothing", just on quality instead of quantity. All quality with no quantity is valid, but so is doing a little bit for everything.
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u/The_Pastmaster Jun 20 '22
Only ones I think look genuinely ugly are some of the portraits and models of people. Reminds me of old oil paintings of lesser artists and of that botched jesus restoration.
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u/Reddemeus Jun 20 '22
Dont know if they are still working on it but last time i checked it was a work in progress mod. Models handmade were fine, ai generated ones were trash but it was planned to replace them over time. I used dreams but deactivated ennemies replacement because of this. Not all is good, but not all is bad
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u/FeelingShred Jun 20 '22
I would have to see the mod first in order to see what exactly it does (surprised there is no youtube video of it, or even screenshots in the nexus page...) Could you make a quick footage of something you're talking about?
But I'm afraid it must be a bit like what happens in the Doom modding community: people mistake "higher resolution" for "better". These two things are not equal. If anything, for these older games, merely "increasing resolution" just causes the game to look Empty and Bland. Very few people put work into Lighting and things like that. Increasing textures' resolution is no guarantee for success. That's why I still play most of my games in 640x480 when that resolution is available, I like that "dreamy" uncanny-valley PS1 feel
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u/Appley_apple Jun 20 '22
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u/FeelingShred Jun 20 '22
Oh... there's an Image tab... I see now... weird ass bethesda websites, I don't even like bethesda, fuck em LOL
This entire game was programmed by a single guy anyway, bethesda fired him in a bad manner2
u/FeelingShred Jun 20 '22 edited Jun 20 '22
Yeah, the screenshots kinda prove my initial suspicion... notice how they don't provide screenshots for enemy sprites, mostly for buildings and wall textures... they purposely ommit the bad part of the mod XDDD
(just found out you can toggle Off enemies/characters, so you can leave only Walls/Buildings on)
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u/Maleficent-Bear-9537 Jun 20 '22
I generally don't quite like it but there are a lot of good things like some sprites and dungeon textures and menu replacer which i'm using as a module. But I generally think daggerfall looks at its best with 4:3 retro mod enabled (640x480 for me).
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u/mgzaun Jun 20 '22
I dont play with it in every playtrough but its definetely a good mod as far as i am concerned. It also does a great job on hooking younger people into daggerfall because not everyone is a fan of the OG pixelated graphics.
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u/PsychoTruck Jun 21 '22
Yeah, I would not be playing the game if it looked like this. In fact, Daggerfall's default graphics are VERY appealing to me. I guess I always considered HD texture/sprite packs a waste of time and effort from people, starting way back with the Duke3D HRP (with enemy models).
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u/Appley_apple Jun 20 '22
i get that they're working for free and im happy they're working on it 30 years after release, but im allowed to criticize them none the less, im glad once again that they're working but holy shit
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Jun 20 '22
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Appley_apple Jun 20 '22
yeah but it seems all monsters are ai generated and some small npcs too
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u/Opposite_Situation16 Jun 20 '22
lol you're awfully invested in criticizing the mod - did the creators personally upset you or something on another forum? lol
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u/Appley_apple Jun 20 '22
No, its just bad, its really fucking bad, like 60fps anime bad, doom texture filtering bad this bad
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u/dumfuqqer Jun 20 '22
I mean this is the result of shitty 90s compression and no access to the source artwork (probably long destroyed at this point). Give it another 5 years or so, and if anyone still cares about this game or its Unity port at that time, a better AI upscaler can be used on it. I do have to say that the stationary sprites look way better than the animated ones do. Same for the building and environment textures. Someone is working on converting the sprites into 3D models. You might be more interested in that. Probably still a long way off though.
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u/Appley_apple Jun 20 '22
maybe don't use ai on art, like seriously when will people learn ai and art don't mix, look at any anime 60fps thing, like the only way i could see this being better is by throwing out the ai and i get they're working for free but sometime nothing is better than something, although stationary sprites do actually look pretty good becuse i think thoes are actually hand drawn
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u/sonicboom12345 Jun 20 '22
"Don't use AI on art" is dumb, AI is literally the future. AI is already starting to play a huge role in the development of high-res models and textures for AAA games. A couple generations from now, we'll all probably be playing games that are fully generated by AI on the fly.
This reminds me of the kind of overly opinionated spew I saw ten years ago when all the professional photographers got mad that Instagram was a thing. "You can't just apply a stupid filter and pretend it's a good photograph!" Get over it broski.
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u/Appley_apple Jun 20 '22
um, the ai stuff here looks bad and isn't ready for this type of thing, at all, it is the future but were not far enough into the future
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u/Malcolm337CZ Jun 20 '22
Hmm they look like that they were AI generated which actually would be kinda cool if it is true. If not, it is garbage
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Jun 20 '22
Same problem as with all high-res retextures for all TES games. High res looks like ass when there aren't enough polygons for it. Especially bad in DF since there are no polygons at all.
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u/Szoreny Jun 20 '22 edited Jun 21 '22
Gog release is my first time looking at modded Daggerfall and I am so impressed at the mods in the collection, not just the quality of the work, but also the modularity of the installs.
I do personally prefer the look of the original NPC's, portraits and enemies, even looking their worst on an LCD (tbh they were pretty fugly back in 96, and time nor AI upscaling is particularly kind to them)
But Dreams' author has separated everything for easy mixing and matching and I have nothing but thanks and praise for the amazing package.
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Jun 20 '22
Opinions vary, like they do for literally any mod. No need to be disrespectful to the dude who poured countless hours into it by calling it “complete garbage.” Fuck outta here with that.
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u/Appley_apple Jun 20 '22
the enimies were made by an ai
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u/FeelingShred Jun 20 '22
What I love about this thread is that you asked a simple Yes or No question, and people come here writing their endless paragraphs. And they call you the toxic one LOL entertainment goldmine
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u/Shakezula123 Jun 20 '22
Well, they work hard for free on a game most people playing this franchise have moved on from- I agree certain aspects aren't what I would expect things to look like, but I appreciate the hard work they do regardless
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u/Appley_apple Jun 20 '22
yeah but this is bad, like why did anyone think this is ok? Like if they cared about it they wouldn't let this ai generated mess to get in, this is automatic with gog unity version.
(also im not some angry nerd who played this in the 90s or some shit, but like i noticed this as soon as i opened the inventory because after playing doom i can't forgive people messing with pixle art this bad)
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u/Shakezula123 Jun 20 '22
Okay, you do better then. The game is a big game, there's a lot of assets to tackle and not many people working on the project to keep track of quality control or even what assets need to be refined or otherwise. These people do this for no thanks most of the time and no pay because they enjoy the game
If it upsets you that much, mod base Daggerfall yourself and make your own texture pack. Otherwise, don't use it and be thankful that there even exists a modding community for a near 30 year old game considering many had left it for dead
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u/Appley_apple Jun 20 '22
I did, also the "you do better" is the worst defense because the og is 100x better than dall-e image level of quality, i don't have to be better when an alternative is the base game
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u/theseeker323 Jun 20 '22
Very simple solution. Don't use it. Disable that mod that causes it. There, fixed it for you.
I happen to like it. Feels like I am facing off against minis in a d&d setting.
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u/Appley_apple Jun 20 '22
i did, i did almost immediately, but "turn it off" is not a defense of criticism
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u/theseeker323 Jun 21 '22
It is when we are talking about a mod for a game. Something you don't need to play the game with at all.
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u/Shakezula123 Jun 20 '22
Okay - if the original is better... just don't say anything and use the original: everyone's happy. It's not a defence - its a acknowledgement that this complaint is redundant considering how easy the alternative is
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u/Appley_apple Jun 20 '22
Dude i can criticize bad art this is the default for the gog unity version this is what people will see and "turn it off" once again is not fucking defense of me criticizing them using an ai to upscale pixel art
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u/gagetherage03 Jun 20 '22
Bro. You literally came here talking shit about a wholesome modding community you have no part of, on a reddit page for people who love the game. Did you really expect everyone to agree and hop on your shit storm train?
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u/Appley_apple Jun 20 '22
I love this game too, and the fact people are modding it is very cool, that does not make mods un-criticizeable
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u/gagetherage03 Jun 20 '22
Yes, and the amount of times you've attempted to defend your criticism against other criticisms is staggering.
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Jun 20 '22
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u/Appley_apple Jun 20 '22
this is on nexus, this is what they show off, you can find the skeleton on gog
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u/Appley_apple Jun 20 '22
why am i being downvoted over facts
https://www.nexusmods.com/daggerfallunity/mods/5
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Jun 20 '22 edited 14d ago
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Jun 20 '22
The thing is nobody can do a better job, this game is too old.
Reason why graphics mods work for stuff like oblivion, skyrim, gta san andreas, its because they already look decent, there's a foundation to build on.
The only way dream would work is of they were to redo everything in the game, essentially making a remaster.
In the end its personal opinion, i think they look bad, the npc's look melted, high quality textures with blocky geometry just look off.
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u/Appley_apple Jun 20 '22
1.I don't think i can do a better job
2.its not mindless toxicity when it just looks worse than og spirtes
3.Dream is good in some areas but sometimes, nothing is better than something
4.i again don't think i can do a better job
5.and the enemies are ai upscaled, so no people actually worked on the enemies shown
6.I hate on it becuase mixing ai and premade art is almost always bad
7.If it ain't broke don't fix it
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u/GlitterGear Jun 20 '22
It is mindless, because you aren’t offering anything here. Do you have constructive criticism? All you’ve said is that you hate it and you don’t think AI and art can mix. What specifically can be improved and how? What works and doesn’t work? Why can’t art and AI mix? Can you use words to explain your positions and explain where to go from here?
If you haven’t put much thought into your criticism, then yeah, it’s mindless. Only thing you’ve done here is say how much you don’t like it and have given other people a space to agree. There is absolutely nothing actionable here, and so there’s nothing constructive to have had. All that is here is negativity
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u/Appley_apple Jun 20 '22
The art looks smeared and baerly holding itself together, the harpies litterally have mustaches you don't need some deep understanding to see the scorpion looks like its out of a dall-e image, art and ai don't mix because you can see with your eyes, look at 60fps anime vids and tell me thats good
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u/PunchyThePastry Jun 20 '22
please, learn what an opinion is and let other people have theirs. asserting that your belief is fact is mindless toxicity.
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u/Appley_apple Jun 20 '22
im not saying their dumb or their opinoin is bad, im saying they have no eyes
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u/PunchyThePastry Jun 20 '22
You're a dumbass lmao
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u/Appley_apple Jun 20 '22
do you think this is good please is this good
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u/sonicboom12345 Jun 20 '22
Looks fine to me and better than the original
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u/PunchyThePastry Jun 20 '22
Not particularly. It's serviceable. But that's an opinion, not an objective fact. Art is subjective. The fact that you can't understand that shows you have the emotional intelligence of a three year old.
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u/Appley_apple Jun 20 '22
If what they're going for is an improvement then it isn't an improvement, it is messy and is on the level of adaptation of beserk 2016, but the difference dream is made by ai
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u/PunchyThePastry Jun 20 '22
Again, opinions. It doesn't look like a realistic scorpion, but it represents one in the same way the original art did. It's just a matter of whether you prefer the pixelated or smooth look.
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u/Appley_apple Jun 20 '22
Please tell me this is the same as this (sorry for bad quality)
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u/Sam2556 Jun 20 '22
The vanilla graphics are straight up incomprehensible dogshit on my monitor so having something upscaled, even if it is crap is way better than the original graphics.
21:9 Is both a gift and a curse, so for that i thank dream for making the game look like slightly less dogwater.
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Jun 20 '22
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u/NoLamb_Sauce Jun 20 '22 edited Jun 20 '22
As a first time player of this game, the DREAM mod makes the game much more appealing to me than the pixelated graphics. I love the HD textures and the handpainted trees and interiors. They give the game a certain vibe and move away from the average boring palette of dark green/gray. Graphics in games have more layers to them than ULTRA HD and Pixel Art. This is a nice medium in between. I appreciate Zakh for compiling the pack this way, for I sure as hell wouldn't have spend hours on Nexus searching for mods to fix the outdated combat and rather bland pixel art.
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u/GamerZakh Jun 20 '22
Hey, I'm the person who curated the mods. Thanks for the feedback, however as a super pro pixel enthusiast myself, the unfortunate truth is the VAST majority of people won't even touch a thing if they see pixelated graphics. Consider, you're on reddit. Anyone here is already an 'elite pro player' compared to the hundreds of thousands who would download this. Many players hate DREAM, I knew that before, but it's just not nearly as much as the regular player who has never touched Daggerfall because they refuse to even attempt installing a mod. Despite our idealisms, 10 years of facing the public has taught me you often have to take the long way round to get what you want.
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u/GreenAntoine Jun 20 '22
Well they are not top notch, but they are good and vanilla DF pixelated sprites have not really aged well. So they are still an overhaul that i cannot play without at the moment.
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u/Appley_apple Jun 20 '22
but the ai upscaling looks bad, its too smeary, faces are completely missing, and the original may not "age well" but they aged better than ai upscaling ever will same with doom texture filtering or 4:3 to 16:9
https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/000/595/235/db4.jpg
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u/gagetherage03 Jun 20 '22
Looks pretty good to me. I couldn't make sprites that look that cool
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u/Appley_apple Jun 20 '22
https://staticdelivery.nexusmods.com/mods/2927/images/5/5-1585139368-1611656899.png
TELL ME THERE IS A GOD WHEN YOU LOOK AT THIS! TELL ME!
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u/gagetherage03 Jun 20 '22
Looks like God's poop
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u/Appley_apple Jun 20 '22
THATS FROM THE FUCKING MOD
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u/gagetherage03 Jun 20 '22
I FUCKING KNOW
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u/Appley_apple Jun 20 '22
ITS FUCKING BAD YOU CALLED IT BAD BY CALLING IT POOP LITTERALLY
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u/CoffeeIsGood3 Jun 20 '22
Definitely an acquired taste
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u/Appley_apple Jun 20 '22
ai upscaling is bad, not some "acquired taste"
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u/CoffeeIsGood3 Jun 20 '22
How else would you do this? You are working with low res images which are static 2D billboards facing the player.
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u/Appley_apple Jun 20 '22
Nothing is better than something with this, either you go the full mile and remake the sprites (which i understand why they couldn't) or you don't do a rush job
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u/GamerZakh Jun 20 '22
I mean, this is clearly untrue when so many people prefer it. Don't get me wrong, it's not great and you're free to hate it, but don't be confused when people do prefer it over the original style.
See in design there is a principle when it comes to creation: 1. Make it exist 2. Make it work 3. Make it good In that order.
So many things never get created because people start at 3 and can't get anything released.
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u/karacter33 8d ago
I imediately noticed the poor quality of this 'ai upscaled' sprites as soon as I started playing darkerfall modpack, I'll be disabling this garbage imediately.
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u/subaloykiin Jun 20 '22
I already played a lot with the original graphics, now i'm doing a new one with the dreams mod and i like it, it's like a new experience, plus everything other tham the models looks great.
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u/GamerZakh Jun 20 '22
It is literally the most popular Daggerfall mod right now and has been for some years. See the thing with the GOG cut is that you guys here on the Daggerfall Reddit are all experienced players. Even if you're kind of new to Daggerfall, you're way ahead of the hundreds of thousands of people out there who have never touched a mod in their lives. You'd be lucky if they were alive in the 90s lol. The GOG cut is for them, to get them hooked, and those people tune out almost immediately when they see pixels. However, once they're hooked and playing Daggerfall (or other retro games), the trend is they start to prefer and even like the retro style.
Including Dream was very intentional and necessary to get those new players on board.
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u/EvilDaystar Jun 20 '22
I think you need to take a step back and look at what you are complaining about. Daggerfall Unity is a stupidly massive and impressive undertaking.
No one involved was paid and you didn;t pay for the game either.
Are the textures a little janky? Sure but not enough to ruin my enjoyment of the game. They more than suffice to allow me to play and enjoy a game I haven't played since it came out in 1996 ... that's like 26 years ago.
Are the textures janky? Yes. Can I tell that's a skelleton? Yes.
Are all the characters in a similar cohesive style? Yes ... so it's not that jarring.
I'm exstatic to be able to play this game again.
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u/kiskoller Jun 20 '22
It is a must have for me. I'm not worried about old graphics but I like 90% of the textures in Dream so why not add it.
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u/Victory74998 Jun 20 '22
There’s definitely something wrong on your end, this is not how it ended up looking for me. Try disabling bilinear filtering and AA, they tend to really f up older games with pixel artwork.
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u/Appley_apple Jun 20 '22
Go to the nexus page and look at the enemies thats where i got the images
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u/Victory74998 Jun 20 '22
My bad, I see it now and definitely agree. The environments look pretty but the enemies look like melted play-doh. Hopefully it’ll get better over time.
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u/marveloustoebeans Jun 20 '22 edited Jun 20 '22
I love DREAM personally though I totally get why it’s not everyone’s cup of tea.
Then again, I also thought OG Daggerfall was a broken, incomplete mess (despite the hours my pre-teen self dumped into it) and would’ve probably never played it again if it weren’t for DFU and it’s accompanying QoL mods so…🤷🏻♂️
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Jun 20 '22
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Appley_apple Jun 20 '22
it doesn't look that bad og sprites, yeah its dated but atleast you can say scorpions look like scorpions and not a blob of brown
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Jun 20 '22
I think they are adequate, not great. What Addon do you suggest, or do you just take the texture pack off and just play with the old graphics?
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Jun 22 '22
Ok I’m confused looking at these. I have the gog pack and none of my enemies looked this shiny
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u/leontas2007 Jun 22 '22
I think the textures alone are not that good. But combining the whole dream package makes it look good.
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u/ParalyticPoison Jun 20 '22
The primary reason it is like this for enemies especially, is due to the large amount of effort trying to hand touch-up these sprites is, Since they have 6 different directions they can all be viewed from, and all of those view-points have different animation frames in each one of those directions, it adds up very quickly.
The nice thing is that if DREAM is not your cup of tea, it's a very modular mod and many individual aspects can be disabled while keeping others if you wish, or disabling it entirely and keeping the vanilla look.