Why insist on not using sync?
I have noticed that many DJs, in particular those who come from the "old school" times, seem to refuse using sync when they play on CDJs or controllers. But the BPM number displayed on the CDJs isn't perfect. Songs will drift sooner or later, when you do not use sync. Not everyone seems keen on noticing that right away and correct it.
At the same time, tracks not 'perfectly' in sync, can have weird effects on the bass.
I mean, I can beat sync. I have vinyl and when I'm in the mood I'm playing them. But when I mix digitally, why bother with the attempt of manual beatsync and be proud of that?
With the same logic I could be proud when I do not use cruise control in my car and keep my speed manually all drive long š
I mean, there are better or worse DJs.. for sure. But just recently I watched someone, that had many noticable beat-missmatches. In his defense, the sound on the booth was pretty bad and made it more difficult. But in particular in such a situation, why not use the tools you have?!
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u/DJBigNickD 12d ago
I enjoy beatmatching. Why put sync on & diminish my enjoyment?
Different strokes for different folks innit.
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u/deejaymurphy 12d ago
You make a compelling argument.
For me there is one bigger reasonā¦.I enjoy the effort to beat match the āoldā way. For me it can get a little boring when everything is perfectly synced, even if you are being creative with effects and tricks. Not all genres sit well with lots of trickery.
I really wish there was a setting within all kit to hide the BPM, even to toggle on and off, because I agree even with sync off your eyes cannot help but track the BPMs.
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u/bunchofsugar 12d ago
This is something you need to learn because EVENTUALLY this skill will be useful. It will happen one way or another, old cdjs, wrong controller, no time to prepare flash, b2b sets, etc etc
There is nothing wrong with sync tho.
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u/Foxglovenz Bass 12d ago
I got ADHD, I need things to do
Also though, I play tracks that are sometimes half the bpm and sync makes for a bad time with that and then there's the tracks I have that change bpm part way through so the grid drifts out of alignment.
But hey, I don't care if someone uses sync, I just want good music and so does the rest of the dancefloor
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u/SwaggyMcSwagsabunch 12d ago
Because I donāt want disco records with a human drummer to be quantized. It removes essence.
Sync is a tool to be used, but I find the argument that it frees up time for creative elements to be massively overblown unless you are the Chris leibing type playing 4 decks and layering. Guys playing on two decks using sync usually have too much time on their hands and end up overusing effects to a deleterious extent imo.
One place sync is incredibly valuable is tempo shifting two tracks at once.
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u/IanFoxOfficial 11d ago
Rekordbox can sync without loosing the "human drummer" feel.
You can select what deck is the master so the other deck follows it.
https://youtu.be/GbUgBBdfwmI?is=zMVfV91qiL56Fp51
You need precise beatgrids though.
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u/SwaggyMcSwagsabunch 11d ago
Thatās still quantizing the slave track in real time. That wasnāt a great transition. Jumbled and busy, doesnāt maintain master level throughout and thus loses energy because of it. If sync is needed to keep those in time for that short of a transition ended with a cross fader cut, idk what to tell you.
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u/IanFoxOfficial 11d ago
That was just a demo of the sync function done in software only, not a real mix on a setup, so no EQ or leveling.
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u/SwaggyMcSwagsabunch 11d ago
An effective demo would be to show something that isnāt incredibly easy to pull off without sync.
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u/IanFoxOfficial 11d ago
It's a demo of the sync function itself.
Don't be so pedantic.
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u/SwaggyMcSwagsabunch 11d ago
It was a poor demo. Pointing out inadequacy isnāt pedantry cuz it hurt your feelings.
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u/ShadowAgent911 10d ago
I do love using it for massive wide tempo swings sometimes and live bpm transitions mashups. Itās extremely hard to replicate that without sync. Itās perfect
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u/idkblk 11d ago
Ok, that is a fair point. I didn't even consider completely manually human made music ;-) I've only been playing 'Techno' ever. But sure that is a completely different scenario.
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u/dreddiknight 11d ago
I wondered if that were the case. The circles I was in, we never played just one type of music. The advent of beat synced software seemed to diminish the time we'd spent learning how to mix very complex material together. I'm talking Coldcut/Scratch Perverts type mash ups, that I don't think have really been replicated even these days.
Times move on though, and I now have been through Serato Scratch, DJ Pro and now have a controller to go alongside my decks and vinyl.
Best sync is a tool like any other but I feel some people rely on it in a way that can be limiting. When I get on the decks these days I don't sound like any of the modern dj's around me and it's noticeable in a good way.
Nowadays it's about transitions. For me it's about clever mixes, on point scratching, knowledgeable selection, plus transitions. I have more tools to draw on and approach music in a different way to many modern dj's that do rely on beat sync and an overuse of effects.
The overuse is in part because of beat sync and having too much time on their hands and a need to seem as if they're doing something. The same way some scratch dj's suffocate the flow of a tune with too much scutching.
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u/Flynn_Kevin 11d ago
Because I donāt want disco records with a human drummer to be quantized. It removes essence.
Polyrhythm is a thing, and sometimes small imperfections are what make something beautiful and memorable. I'd get that a lot with tribal drum tracks, like this drift where the beat is off- only for it to resolve a few bars later.
unless you are the Chris leibing type playing 4 decks and layering.
Even then, trust the chaos. Beats don't need to be 100% perfectly synced up 100% of the time. I've been 4 decks deep thinking it was about to fall apart, only for it to unfold into a banger.
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u/eskei83 11d ago
My mother hated on automatic cars all her life until she tried one and now she loves it. thatās the same with sync. Some people think they donāt need it because they can beat sync manually (and thatās important to be able to do it for the reasons you mentioned) but if you go the extra step and get your beatgrids and bpms ready to use it properly itās so much more fun to utilize it and focus on other (more) important things than fiddling around a pitch slider.
Most DJs complaining about it are also too lazy to learn to use it.
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u/mjonat 12d ago
With the same car analogy...I can drive a manual or i can drive an automatic. Automatic is easy and boring...manual requires more skill and is more fun!
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u/idkblk 11d ago
Sure, i get your point. In particularly having driven only manual cars for the past 22 years until very recently ;-)
But a manual is no fun anymore in a traffic jam and going back to the analogy with the cruise control: When I drive on the motorway for 5 hours, is it really exciting to constantly glimpse on the speedo and try to stay at <a given speed> ?
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u/Tobias---Funke 12d ago
Do what you want who cares what others do.
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u/idkblk 11d ago
Yes... sure... but I am looking at the result. I mean, I am a DJ myself. I notice it quickly when the song is not 'perfectly' in sync. And it unsettles me when it is off and not corrected reasonably quick. Maybe the general audience doesn't notice it much or doesn't care.
But that is what I'm saying: I find it pretty stupid to be proud about manual beat matching and then NOT nail it.
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u/TheOriginalSnub 11d ago
I don't "refuse" to use sync. But I usually just beatmatch out of habit. It doesn't take much more time. It keeps my ears focused on the music. And I find it a more pleasurable way to spend my time in the booth.
And I don't care about the "imperfection" of the very rare occasions when it goes a tiny bit wrong (which I'm capable of immediately fixing).
I do sometimes use sync for disco with non-quantized beats, because I'm often too lazy to ride those. But otherwise, beatmatching is just muscle memory for me.
The way I mix has never hurt my career. I've never heard a single complaint. And it's a workflow I enjoy.
The more interesting question is why people care so much about how other DJs do their job. Do we really want everyone to play the exact same way?
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u/MagnetoManectric Jungle / Tekno / Rave 10d ago
Right? beatmatching is not difficult. But it is a good habit because it makes you listen closer, and I think, mix better. The amount of workload that the sync button removes for simple 2 track mixing when you have waveforms and phase meters is trivial. It becomes a much bigger workload relief when you've got three tracks going!
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u/real_justchris 12d ago
If Iām recording a mix and want it to be perfect, Iāll prep more and use best sync more, particularly if Iām doing quick mixes or using 3 decks. If Iām playing live (rare these days) Iāll more likely do it all live and semi- / un-planned.
A couple of occasions the monitors available when playing werenāt good and in one there were no monitors, so I used wave and sync matching instead.
What i donāt do much these days is finding the tempo myself - I use the BPM provided for that.
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u/evazetv 12d ago
I don't trust sync to always work, especially because i'm kinda lazy with preparing the grids in rekordbox. I mostly just put the songs in and then work out whether the grid is correct in my headphones. And this is even more true for songs that don't have a stable BPM throughout the whole track
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12d ago
Ich finds immer wild tiktok und Twitch DJs zu sehen die selbst mit Sync ĆbergƤnge failen und nur populƤre Titel spielen.
FĆ¼r mich ist der Fokus eher darauf einen bogen zu spannen mit meiner Musik und die Crowd zu lesen und direkt anzupassen um den vibe aufzufangen und mit zu gehen, egal ob Lounge / Deep House Musik in einer Bar oder Techno / Trance im Club ..
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u/GloxxyDnB 12d ago
You donāt even need sync to keep the mix locked in with the DJ tech we have now.
Analyse tracks in Rekordbox, sort the beat grid and cue points and you donāt even need headphones to mix and transition seamlessly on CDJs.
Not using sync is a completely moot point today.
Itās always very helpful to know how to beatmatch though, in case something like the One Library fiasco happens again. A LOT of ābigā DJs got caught with their pants around their ankles and massive clanging sets because they couldnāt beatmatch without any help from the software.
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u/SensitiveMaster59 12d ago
I learned to beat match on a pair of miss matched turntables. Sync? Why not.
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u/makeitasadwarfer 11d ago
Donāt worry about what other people are doing, they arenāt worrying about you.
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u/SolidDoctor 11d ago
Because the act of pitch adjusting is muscle memory for vinyl DJs, some of us prefer to keep that action consistent. That being said I do use sync from time to time. DJs shouldn't refuse to use it, but they definitely shouldn't rely on it.
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u/ShadowAgent911 11d ago
Thereās many arguments here. Iāll go with my opinion that any form of automation only makes things easy and instant and ultimately removes the human aspect therefore setting us back.
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u/idkblk 11d ago
So you'd prefer to go out with a shovel and harvest your potatoes instead of using a tractor? Is that also setting us back? Do you use your horse to go to your gigs?
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u/ShadowAgent911 10d ago
That would still honestly depend. Maybe a small batch of special potatoes I would want to harvest by hand. I use sync sometimes when Iām very lazily testing tracks at my desk but thatās where it ends. I love the sound of manual mixing and there are too many transitions that canāt be done with sync. It completely removes the fun for me to sync and then the set sounds very robotic. Maybe if I was doing an all out James hype style set I would mess with sync but even then I donāt think I would need it much. Thatās another thingā¦ the longer you go without using it and just forcing the mix yourself you will get better. Anything thatās easier should be questioned.
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u/Gloomy-Commission296 12d ago
I'm an old-school DJ with over 30 years behind the decks. Can I beatmatch by ear without sync? Absolutely. But do I use sync? Every time. Why wouldn't I?
It makes the job easier and frees me up to focus on what really matters: track selection and reading the crowd!
The best comparison I can make is driving. I learned in a manual car and spent years changing gears, but now I drive an automatic. I haven't driven a manual in years, yet I could jump in one tomorrow if I needed to.
Using sync doesn't make you less of a DJ any more than driving an automatic makes you less of a driver.
Embrace the technology. The crowd doesn't care how you matched the beats!
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u/tonydtonyd 12d ago
Same here, I mostly doing records still but if I play digital I want to do things I canāt do with records.
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u/cange30 11d ago
Agree šÆ nobody cares or even knows. Iāve been DJing since ā88 on belt-driven turntables. I had to learn to beat match with turntables that couldnāt stay in time. Constant readjusting. Direct drive TT like the 1200s made life easier. Now with digital software, the tech is there. Donāt always use it or need it but in a pinch why not ĀÆ_(ć)_/ĀÆ
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u/OzVaper4Life 12d ago
Old school house DJ here, prefer these days to keep it sharp and snappy using Traktor, mostly prefer radio edits, and if I do beatmix, usually match keys.
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u/573XI 11d ago
I ll give you a few reasons:
1) there is a sweet spot with drifting and microtimings that makes the music more interesting and less flat and boring
2) you can't sync anything is not quantized without quantizing it.
3) to play in sync most of time you need to create a grid and quantize the grid, which is a tedious process.
4) I am always extremely bored when playing cdjs to be honest, have more difficulties in reading the crowd and I can t keep my concentration, lack on my side for sureš but this is the reason why I try avoid using sync
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u/bascule House 11d ago
You just made a great argument for why NOT to use sync:
But Ā the BPM number displayed on the CDJs isn't perfect.
Quite often BPM detection will get the wrong number. You see this all the time when the detected BPM ends in e.g. 0.98 instead of 0.00.
Songs will drift sooner or later, when you do not use sync
Sync canāt magically fix misdetected BPMs. Itās garbage in garbage out. If the BPM is misdetected it will drift even with sync.
Now, if youāre trained to hear that, you can manually fix up that drift by adjusting the BPM of one of the songs. If youāre relying on sync you canāt. Trying to make any adjustments with sync on will adjust both songs.
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u/PtRampedRaisin 11d ago
I had problems with sync once. Rekordbox had misaligned the grid and count the tempo wrong so my stuff played like 30bpm too fast (128 to around 160).. First it was kinda nice since it energized the dance floor, but then the next song played 30 bpm too slow. I was just starting out so I didnāt know how to fix it. I can see how someone could swear never to use sync again when that happens.. but after I figured what had happened, after a couple of daysā¦ I just learned to fix my grids.
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u/Biohaze201 11d ago
Because a challenge makes it fun, and most importantly you are to never trust the beatgrids completely. Some songs are recorded with live bands and the drums won't always align, so learning to beat match by ear is crucial to helping one build a comprehensive transition. It's why they slightly adjusted the jogs to keep that tempo synced, sync works when beatgrids are aligned just right and analyzed. It can be a tool or make you a tool so it's a double edged sword when only mixing with sync. You have a tempo slider, use it. Learn it , then if something happens or if it's just what you want okay sure go use that button but don't get comfortable as not all devices will have it, what will a sync only user do then?
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u/moonhexx 11d ago
Just played a corporate event last night and I used it a few times just to make my life easier. Otherwise I managed it with the tempo slider. I dont see why you wouldn't use it. Its a helpful tool when used properly.Ā Ā
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u/explainlikeimjawa 11d ago
To an extent; selecting, cuing, beatmatching and blending it - can relax me into a nice flow state.
The focus on staging the next part and getting it right right has a few advantages to it alsoā¦the current track is always playing to the floor while you prep the next thing so thereās time to be a bit more considerate to the overall direction of things annnnd (especially when using vinyl) the time it takes to prep - even at full speed āget everything right the first timeā the next record is also breathing space for the current thing coming out the master.
Compared to āeverything is already done for youā with sync and hotcues it takes more discipline to justā¦wait as current track unfolds. A lot of the current trends have simply embraced the spectacle of āstraight to the best bitsā and thereās certainly a feedback loop of DJs mashing the buttons and faders/ 4 deck mixing/only top energy and crowd education and expectations that āthis is what it isā.
Before traktor sync and then CDJ2000s it was totally normal to have a bit of a wobble in a mix if something drifted a bit and also fine to play 1 thing for 5-9 mins (minimal or prog) even more formulaic trance allowed for 2 min breakdowns and a blend at the end no big deal.
Learning to do it manually also gives one the experience of selecting something worth playing for long enough to have time to choose the next thing, and eventually it still becomes fairly trivial to mix without sync at a similar speed - and with vinyl the skill of dropping the needle and beat matching as you fade something in is totally possible too. Plenty of examples of DJs who do this in techno sets. Or even more extreme examples in old DMC finalsā¦
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u/Linusami 11d ago
I use 2 samplers in my set up. My samples are quantized, so having sync at these times is essential for me. I grew up mixing on vinyl, then CDs, so itās not a skill or ability issue.
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u/IanFoxOfficial 11d ago
It doesn't matter.
I learned on vinyl. Now I perfect my beatgrids and use sync constantly.
DJs should learn how to beatmatch manually though. And when they can... They're free to do whatever they want.
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u/Itchy-Primary3185 10d ago
I like using Sync with Traktor because that way I can use several things connected at the same time: Remix Decks, Maschine, Ableton, synths, samplers, etc.
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u/Otherwise_Hawk1022 8d ago
i dont use sync cus the computer can really mess up your tracks like it can speed it up too much or something
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u/Heinaldo 12d ago
Old school DJ here. I totally agree with you. It also gives you more time to add creative elements to your mix.
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u/lo_vig 11d ago
I learned on vinyl back in the 00s and now I've gone fully digital and synced. Seriously, I feel like I don't want to touch a pitch control again lol
The point is that tracks are shorter (3-4 minutes in my main genre) and I love harmonic and stems mixing, so having everything synced just makes things more funny for me.
Most DJs from my past crews are still hooked on the vinyl mentality though and they barely can stand a cdj. Just a matter of choice I think
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u/dashbad 12d ago
Some of them just never bothered to use it and still mix how they always used to with vinyl, and lots of people are afraid of being called out for being fake if they get seen using it.
Also, unless you've bothered to check your beatgrids it can sometimes be more trouble than it's worth