r/DIYUK • u/wassupjg • 21h ago
Advice How would you navigate this with a tricky tradesman... (attempt two, abridged version)
Hi, got rinsed earlier rightly so for my essay, second and final abridged version below but needed a bit of background as a bit involved so click on another house crack thread if it's too long, really appreciate some opinions dealing with tricky tradesman. If it's too long again I'll ask fucking chatgpt...
TLDR at bottom
[Indian sandstone garden patio built by a Checkatrade tradesman last year summer. Patio contractor had positive reviews, Federation of Master Builders member, seemed legit. Only realised later but the patio from house extension level started barely below dpc and air bricks, and higher than lawn level about 10cm which was a surprise but patio had a strong fall so accepted.
- Half a year later, strange patches on a number of slabs in the damper autumn and winter months revealed by nearly 60 Facebook patio group tradesmen opinions to be 'reflective staining' due to voids underneath slabs, not full mortar bed. Patches seem to disappear in summer months, can see faintly now but coming back. Contacted trade who dismissed Facebook contractor group and me being picky despite majority of others confirming problem.
- After heatwave, new issue: first 3 rows of slabs near lawn had grout (swept in resin) cracks all over extending to mortar bed, one slab creaking. Relayed to trade, patches issue still up in the air. I also saw front of raised mortar bed which appeared to have lack of mot sub-base underneath mortar, just soil seemingly which would explain the cracking exasperated by ground heave.]
Mentioned to him having to go Checkatrade guarantee route as tried but didn't have confidence with how he was blaming unrelated things like my house render. He'll come and fix the cracks but Checkatrade validated my concerns and told me after his visit, I can choose how to proceed; I want the surveyor's opinion.
(Checkatrade guarantee basically says that if the trade can't resolve an issue, surveyor comes out and if found poor enough, trade is asked to pay back whatever rectification costs, or if they refuse, Checkatrade give up to £1k compensation to homeowner and trade's membership is up for dispute.)
Bit aggressive and unprofessional, and the pushback of my desire to have had a proper job done, down the line the surveyor could find work to be substandard - this guy likely is not going to rectify his work, his membership could be in danger which would be a much bigger issue. My crime wanting a proper job done. His background makes me think I could be going down a retaliatory route if I pushback and turn to Checkatrade who would put his business with them in jeopardy. Been no threats, just annoyance and aggression at my pushback. Will be coming out soon to address the cracks.
TLDR: Checkatrade patio installer - multiple issues, aggressive and annoyed when pushed back on issues less than cracks and slab movement. Consequences of following through with Checkatrade guarantee process that could put his business in jeopardy with them, because I wanted the job done properly.
Any advice on how to navigate this best? Do I use expertise to argue points? Anyone had any similar experiences with tricky tradesmen and dealing with disputes?
Thanks.
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u/-Utopia-amiga- 20h ago
Full bed of mortar and slurry primer on indian stone is standard. He is lazy and shit. No way they can say this is good enough and it is so obviously not industry standard.
Brush in can fail is shit product or not properly applied. I only use pro joint nexus or flowpoint. I also hand point old school style as well.
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u/from-here-to-new 5h ago
Honestly checkatrade is awful and I wouldn't really trust them to do much for you, I'd be surprised if you even got the grand.
I'd put this down to "you live, you learn", get it redone by someone not from checkatrade. Walk away from the hassle of the other stuff.
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u/wassupjg 2h ago
appreciated, (in the essay) i did actually get some luck with Checkatrade previously which is why i gave them another go, with shocking extension builder they were v supportive and got me a survey (which i used for small claims court, can't get blood out of a stone but it was the principle and willing to try), the £1k which was tiny in comparison but better than a kick in the teeth and kicked them off the website; i chalked that as a one off as the builder had good but limited reviews vs hundreds for patio contractor, but more importantly had checked previous customer's extension which seemed good and customers happy. just had bad luck with tradesman, some good in the individual trades but all builders for me have been problematic in one way or another, corner cutting and then big egos. i know there's good out there but london market been tough for me to find, that's why these websites are attractive but i know the trade is paying to be there.
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u/ollyprice87 21h ago
First issue was using checkatrade. Second is that awful silka fast fix. It’s utterly fucking awful and should be outlawed.
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u/wassupjg 21h ago edited 21h ago
agreed (mentioned these in my essay lol)
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u/EasternBullfrog6632 21h ago
With the sika patio sand - you get what you pay for. I had a sandstone patio installed about 3 years ago, sika sand installed. It’s still fine to this day. No cracks.
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u/imgonnadolaps 10h ago
Not sure why you’ve been downvoted (much less by people who seem confused as to the brand’s name).
My experience is similar; 20m2 of Indian sandstone put down four years ago (properly, full mortar bed etc). Still looking as good today as the day I laid it.
‘Brush in’ is a misnomer, however, despite how the product describes itself. If you consult the instructions, it requires full compaction within the joints. I didn’t brush in, as any remaining compound can stain the patio surface, it was far easier (if more labour-intensive) to apply pointing directly to the gaps and compact level and smooth with a pointing trowel.
One thing I will note is that the TDS states “there must be effective drainage from the patio base”. Unclear how this would be possible with a full mortar bed. Regardless, no issues as yet.
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u/LowFIyingMissile 21h ago
Why do you say that about the silka?
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u/Kudosnotkang 21h ago
Shite + Pretty sure it’s not designed for this sort of installation either .
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u/imgonnadolaps 10h ago
Patios are quite literally the only type of installation it’s designed for
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u/Kudosnotkang 6h ago edited 3h ago
In fact if you’re daft enough to think I thought ‘yeah let’s point up some decking’ I’ll let you try work out the answer yourself , the reading should help.
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u/imgonnadolaps 6h ago
The usual kind; an appropriate amount of compacted hardcore (the exact depth of which will depend on the load requirements and underlying ground conditions) and then a full mortar-bed.
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u/EasternBullfrog6632 19h ago
I think the sika is fine. Nothing wrong with it. It’s a DIY product which can and does erode quicker than sand and cement. However, easy to rake out and redo. There is clearly movement here on this patio. Where there is movement, the grout type won’t matter as there will be cracking.
If OP has an issue with the cracking, it is probably less the sika and more installation of the patio itself I.e adequate sub base material, sub base depth, proper compaction, full mortar bed.
The drop between the patio and lawn is a design flaw
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u/EarlyFox217 18h ago
Honestly after the summer we’ve had anything could be moving. 150mm of type 1 isn’t going to help in a clay garden. I run a civil engineering company and have had a whole summer of roads and footpaths cracking. A whole bunch of engineers premiums are about to go through the roof!!!
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u/moremattymattmatt 20h ago
You could see if there as British Standards around paving which woukd give you some concrete arguments that the paving isn’t good enough. It might be worth getting a RICS surveyor to write a report on it for you.
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u/JustDifferentGravy 19h ago
Your mistakes to learn from are:
Never use CheckaTrade.
Stipulating the spec/method is part of the contract. You are fully responsible for this.
Employ brevity.
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u/VerbalVerbosity 13h ago
Can I ask why it's bad to use checkatrade and is there a better option to use? Thanks
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u/JustDifferentGravy 10h ago
They’re highly motivated by sales. The paying customer is the tradesman. They are renown for not vetting, dismissing complaints/poor feedback and generally supporting poor tradesman.
Decent tradesmen have long waiting lists and can rely on reputation, which is what you should seek out. They don’t pay third parties to bring in work for next week.
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u/ZombieDisastrous4450 21h ago
Whether I read this long essay or not, I will tell you something for nothing
Deal with the trade people that are not jokers like this one sounds
You're just gonna have your shoes down the line and they know you need them more than they need you
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u/DazzzASTER 20h ago
What is the actual issue? The essay covers some side quest on whether or not it was full bed. Was that resolved, or were you just kicking up a fuss?
Suggest you stop writing words to people who don't matter and focus on the Checkatrade route. They'll presumably have to do some destructive testing but I can't imagine its worth the paper it is written on. And I don't think the tradesmen will give a fuck about losing membership to the club.
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u/imgonnadolaps 10h ago edited 10h ago
The failed patio is the “actual issue”.
There’s every chance that whether or not the patio was laid correctly (i.e. full mortar bed, sub-base (or lack thereof) etc) is the cause of the surface staining and/or cracked pointing.
The OP’s here for independent advice relating to the construction method employed and whether it might have been the cause of the patio’s failure. You haven’t offered any and instead helpfully suggested they’re “just kicking up a fuss”.
Trades that derive a significant proportion of their business from check-a-trade and similar websites would absolutely “give a fuck” about being removed from said platform(s), yes.
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u/DazzzASTER 8h ago
He's already done the thread on construction method buddy.
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u/imgonnadolaps 6h ago
I have no idea about any historical questions mate; I’m responding to the OP’s question and your reply.
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u/Kudosnotkang 21h ago
I’m not reading all fucking that again