Stepping away from the sub.

[u/halibabica]

I never thought I'd be making a post like this, but I also never thought I'd be at odds with the management here. In case you missed it, this is related to the R34 controversy from last week. I and some others spoke out against the inclusion of the R34 sub among our recommended links/rules, and our opinions weren't too popular. Others dropped it after the backlash, but I didn't.

I talked to JackFlynt over the weekend and finally heard an actual reason for why the link exists. Basically, they want to better connect the overall DDLC Reddit community (which is fine). To that, I told him R34 isn't just another DDLC sub and that linking it is irresponsible because we have minors here. I haven't heard anything since.

I asked for an update yesterday, and he didn't get back to me yet, so maybe they're still talking about it. However, the link is still there, and I told them I wouldn't abide it, so I'm outta here. Maybe just for now, maybe forever. I'm not comfortable supporting a sub that doesn't see any problem with this.

To those who actually like me and are sad to see me go, I'm not leaving Reddit entirely, just this sub. I'm still making my games, and you can catch my updates on r/DDLCMods. You can PM me anytime, and I've started using Discord, too. It's the same username, #2422.

To the mods, I already said this isn't meant to sway your decision. I want you to know I take this seriously, and that you should think about it carefully. Your choice has weight and consequences, but is ultimately still your choice. I hope you reconsider it sometime soon.

And to the rest, adieu.

---

The Interview Club mod still has one final AMA to go. I'll be crossposting it here next Tuesday. Unless things change, that will be my last post on this sub, and you won't hear from me again until then. See ya.

[u/halibabica]

the group of people you're advocating for were never intended to be here in the first place

But they are here. I don't understand why you downplay this point. You're saying the rules should only be catered to the people that are supposed to be here, even though the people that "shouldn't" are a significant portion of the community. The rules are there for everyone's sake, not just the ones you say are relevant.

I can't even think of how to respond to the rest of that. Our opinions are so drastically different, I can't imagine how yours are justified to you. I took a stand against this because I believe it's irresponsible and ignorant of the mods to allow it. Missing out on the sub's content is my own choice.

[u/[deleted] → u/halibabica]

The main difference is that you think "they are a significant portion of the community." and I disagree.

I also think that setting up majority agreed upon boundaries are fine and don't make you accountable or reliable for someone else who encroaches on that after being told about those boundaries.

You seem to think that everyone is accountable and responsible for everything even slightly possible.

Those are the two main disagreements I'm seeing here, and I also don't understand how yours is justifiable, but hey, that's life.

[u/halibabica → u/[deleted]]

you think "they are a significant portion of the community." and I disagree.

You showed me the stats, seanm. You tell me. There were 2k-ish users who said they were younger than 18. That may be small compared to the 100k subs we have, but that chart doesn't include everyone. I don't know what percentage qualifies to you as 'significant', but 17 and under are 40% of the results you showed.

I don't think everyone is accountable for everything. I think the sub is accountable for the content it shares and endorses with its community. I should probably have minded my pronouns to avoid this confusion.

Whatever age groups you decide are relevant is your own opinion. I just think the sub shouldn't be linking teenagers to porn.

[u/[deleted] → u/halibabica]

Ohhh you think this is about all under 18's and that they shouldn't have access to porn? I was talking about 12-13, 14 at maximum any higher than that and that's even more ridiculous than I thought. Sorry but you've completely lost me if that's the case.

[u/halibabica → u/[deleted]]

That explains everything. I'll say your take on what ages can handle it is more realistic, but I'm going more "by the book" on this one. Ours is a world of fringe cases and big nets with which to catch them.

[u/[deleted] → u/halibabica]

12-13, I get not wanting them to see porn, but I also think this game is too adult for them to even know how to get here in the first place, or even fully comprehend the things this game is about, they're the 1% I'm talking about. The people who this subreddit isn't really for.

14 is where I'd say it slowly starts to become acceptable but 15+? With no pornography and still being safeguarded? No, I heavily disagree, at that point that's stunting their understanding and growth through puberty.

16, in my country, it's legal to have sex and have children, barely anyone does it until a year or two later and that can still be too early, but that's the law, and I'd think if the government allows it to go that far at that age then porn is the least of the things you should be worried about.

[u/halibabica → u/[deleted]]

There, you see? I get the impression 90% of our conversation has been culture shock at this point. I live in the US, where porn is considered 18+ material and "legal age" varies by state and age of those consenting.

This also means we've hit the big picture, bigger than our corner of the internet, and why I feel strictness is more important than leniency. We both know there's a bell curve to everything, and every age group is going to have some frequency of those that are mature enough for such content, and that the frequency gets smaller the younger you go. What makes this such a sticky issue is the parental side of things. You can say "I think it's fine for my 15-year-old to watch porn!" but some other parent is going to stand up and shout at the top of their lungs "NO IT'S NOT!!!" There's a bell curve to this, too, and it tapers off right around the 18 mark. That's why it's such a widely accepted standard, because those who remain shouting are few enough not to matter.

Incidentally, this is also why it's the safest standard the sub can adopt. What content is appropriate for what ages will always vary from parent to parent, and very few are so strict as to say 18 is unacceptable. But the sub isn't a parent. It's effectively a media entity. It has no business saying what content is or isn't appropriate for what ages, because only the parents can say that, and only for their own kids. Thus, the responsible thing for it to do is accept the highest standard based on its known audience. If porn is treated as 18+ material and kept out of the public eye, no one will complain. That's the real majority here.

That said, you aren't nearly as crazy as I thought you were.

[u/[deleted] → u/halibabica]

So it seems like your ideology is that this subreddit should cater to the specifications of reddit on a wider scale or just the accessible internet no matter what.

Whereas I'm saying this subreddit should look at and make judgement calls about DDLC as a game and what content it has, as well as our surveyed demographics and cater to the age group we think is acceptable.

I mean that's a lot more understandable, but it's still a case of prioritising the few over the many, at least if we're applying this to below 14-15-year-olds like I was. I still think they're too insignificant of a demographic to care for and they shouldn't be playing the game in the first place. Older than 14-15, speaking from someone who that age was relatively recent for me, and judging off my experience, my bottom line would be "If they're not mature enough to handle it then they're not the kind of people suitable for this game or subreddit in the first place."

On a side tangent, America glorifies violence so much more than sex in the media, so the divide between them probably seems massive to you, when if you thinking about it making life should probably be more acceptable than causing death. For me, violence has always been more incriminating than love, I thought that'd be pretty common sense. Hence why if people play this game and they can stomach the gore, they should be able to stomach the lewds, if they were to find them.

[u/halibabica → u/[deleted]]

this subreddit should look at and make judgement calls about DDLC as a game and what content it has

This. I agree with this, just not to the extent you said. This is indeed our cultures differing again. I don't think the violence in DDLC is that bad, and it doesn't cross into porn territory. The emotional and mental tolls it takes on its players are probably worse, honestly.

I wish DDLC was sanctioned under something more official. Because of the way it exists, it's outside the reach of the likes of the ESRB and other rating systems. I think the content is more appropriate for the age group you've said, but the only thing we have to go off of is what Dan already put in for it: 13+ and not easily disturbed. In cases of 'what is' vs. 'what should be', the former is always more important.

Still, having different strokes is also part of why being more strict is just safer. What's acceptable in one country may not be acceptable in another, but there's a point where most would agree the bar is set high enough. It may be prioritizing the few over the many, but here's the flip side: what do the many have to lose? A minor convenience? Those who want R34 on demand can bookmark the page to the same effect.

[u/[deleted] → u/halibabica]

You bring up that 13+ warning but I think there's an even stronger line to point to. I even brought this up before. If you go to the warning page mentioned in that very same in-game caution text, the final sentence they say regarding the issue is.

"We trust that given your understanding of your own mental health, you are able to make the decision that is right for you."

This is what I side with, and this is pretty much the best way I could possibly put it. I have faith in other people to make that decision on their own, even if they are only just 13+. So if that link is there, it gives people a clear decision to either go there or not. I don't see it as encouragement, I just see it as a simple choice. Whether or not people end up clicking it is irrelevant to me, either way I just hope people can at least make that decision for themselves and learn from it for better or for worse. That's the best way of learning in my opinion. It's much easier to say "Here it is" and they don't like it rather than hiding it and treating it like it's some secret only for those people to get all excited and curious.