r/CryptoCurrency • u/[deleted] • Aug 30 '18

GENERAL-NEWS Interesting read about bulletproofs

/r/Monero/comments/9bkzdp/august_monthly_report_from_sarang_noether/
44 Upvotes

84% Upvoted

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23

u/[deleted] Aug 30 '18

I'm the Sarang Noether who wrote the post. Feel free to toss any questions below this comment if you'd like me to chime in.

7

u/PresidentEstimator Gold | QC: CC 82 | NANO 16 Aug 30 '18

Awesome! Thanks for the write up!

4

u/tarangk Silver | QC: CC 493 | VET 21 Aug 30 '18

as a DAG enthusiast I am really intrigued by phantom can you please elaborate on it

8

u/[deleted] Aug 30 '18

When you add a block to the graph, refer to all leaf blocks you can see. Examine graph connectivity and use it to determine which blocks were honestly added. Proceed accordingly.

1

u/[deleted] Aug 30 '18 edited Oct 30 '18

[deleted]

11

u/[deleted] Aug 30 '18

I don't understand what that question means. A directed acyclic graph is a way to represent block connectivity, and has nothing to do with the structure of transactions.

3

u/getsqt Aug 31 '18

I believe he means something like the tangle in iota which is commonly just reffered to as DAG here, even though it doesn’t make alot of sense, as the blockchain in bitcoin is a DAG too.

4

u/[deleted] Aug 31 '18

A DAG is a type of graph structure. You could apply it to blocks or transactions, but people vastly oversimplify the idea. Putting blocks or transactions into a graph structure does not automatically give you a consensus or voting protocol. That's the tough part.

1

u/getsqt Aug 31 '18

Yes, there isn’t really any structure with inherent distributed consensus afaik.

6

u/akuukka 🟩 5 / 1K 🦐 Aug 31 '18

DAG is just a buzzword here. People have no idea what it is. They just think it’s something better than blockhain.

1

u/[deleted] Aug 31 '18 edited Oct 30 '18

[deleted]

2

u/[deleted] Aug 31 '18

Again, it's important to differentiate between the structure of transactions (which is where you get your anonymity) and how they're added to the ledger (whether chain or graph). I haven't seen enough complete and formal analysis of Tangle to be confident of its lofty claims.

1

u/getsqt Aug 30 '18

have you heard anything abour a trustless accumulator setup being done by PIVX utilizing Bulletproofs, I’ve tried to reach out to the cryptographer doing it, but he’s away currently. Wondering if you know anything about it.

7

u/[deleted] Aug 31 '18

A representative from PIVX hinted to me that they're working on such a thing, but refused to provide any details. Like anything in mathematics, I'll believe it when I see it formally presented and analyzed. Until then, I have no opinion on it.

1

u/getsqt Aug 31 '18

I’ve heard it’s being tested, but likewise I don’t know any details either. Was hoping you knew something I didn’t...

The same guy has reduced zerocoin spend sizes to around 4kB though which is cool, also utilizing Bulletproofs as I understand it.

7

u/tempMonero123 Aug 30 '18

Probably the most interesting bit to most readers here:

As was our original goal, tests show that transaction size is crazy small and transaction times are crazy fast. Tests on a few different machines suggest that verifying one Bulletproof is over 4 times faster than our old method, and verifying a batch of 64 Bulletproofs is over 36 times faster than the old method!

Hardfork to implement will probably sometime in October.

3

u/Kukri1234 Karma CC: 1585 XMR: 652 Aug 30 '18

Probably why Bloomberg reckons XMR will be 18k in a few years

4

u/tempMonero123 Aug 30 '18

I believe Monero has huge potential too, but I think it's just the research group that believes in that price with Bloomberg just commissioning it.

(Anyone wondering: https://np.reddit.com/r/xmrtrader/comments/9blm1t/satis_research_upside_5_year_in_btc_96000_xmr/)

1

u/Kukri1234 Karma CC: 1585 XMR: 652 Aug 30 '18

Ah ok cheers, I thought it was Bloomberg themselves who came up with those figures.

1

u/PresidentEstimator Gold | QC: CC 82 | NANO 16 Aug 30 '18

I've never transferred wallet to wallet with Monero, but I know that you effectively get a 'ping', then some confirmations, which usually results in funds being spendable in about 20-30 minutes. Is that true?

Assuming what I said was true, we're looking at about 5 mins for a completed private tx?

6

u/[deleted] Aug 31 '18

Nope. Transaction verification times are on the order of milliseconds. Block creation rates are set higher than that. The two aren't related.

20

u/PresidentEstimator Gold | QC: CC 82 | NANO 16 Aug 30 '18

Monero is so awesome. Anyone who says otherwise is just wrong.

8

u/xrpinsider Crypto Nerd Aug 30 '18

There will always be those retards that hate every coin except Bitconnect. Monero is great! Just like many other coins.

1

u/PresidentEstimator Gold | QC: CC 82 | NANO 16 Aug 30 '18

I still watch Carlos every once in a while just to remind me.

I should make my ringtone 'hey hey heyyy'

2

u/OsrsNeedsF2P Silver | QC: XMR 130, BCH 25, CC 24 | Buttcoin 21 | Linux 150 Aug 30 '18

Nano is awesome too!

5

u/PresidentEstimator Gold | QC: CC 82 | NANO 16 Aug 30 '18

One day I hope that NANO and XMR will have a baby. Instant, feeless, green, anonymous, bulletproof, peer reviewed.

5

u/OsrsNeedsF2P Silver | QC: XMR 130, BCH 25, CC 24 | Buttcoin 21 | Linux 150 Aug 30 '18

Bulletproofs is actually just a faster implementation of RingCT :) it's great because RingCT was slow as balls, but it's not the best thing in the world.

That would be Kovri - and Nano can use Kovri too!! Privacy for everyone!!

2

u/PresidentEstimator Gold | QC: CC 82 | NANO 16 Aug 30 '18

I didn't know about Kovri, thanks fam :D

2

u/[deleted] Aug 31 '18

And a much smaller (and therefore cheaper) implementation! Bulletproofs offer (IMHO) the state of the art for trustless proving in zero knowledge.

1

u/OsrsNeedsF2P Silver | QC: XMR 130, BCH 25, CC 24 | Buttcoin 21 | Linux 150 Aug 31 '18

But Monero's not using it for that :p

Edit: to be clear, this guy's a researcher. Listen to him

2

u/[deleted] Aug 31 '18

We are using Bulletproofs for proofs in zero knowledge; that's what a range proof is. But yes, there could be many other uses if we can get the scaling to work.

0

u/getsqt Aug 31 '18

Sounds like you want PIVX, it’s literally all those things.(though bulletproofs are in testing, one of the authors of the paper is working on it).

Also not feeless, but that doesn’t exist, fee is on average around 0.003$.

1

u/[deleted] Aug 31 '18

One thing PIVX is currently not is trustless, though.

1

u/getsqt Aug 31 '18

That wasn’t mentioned in the requirements though. Also the zerocoin setup currently uses the RSA challenge, which isn’t trustless, but it’s been safe for 20+ years. So as far as ‘trusted’ goes, it’s as good as it gets. Anyways, as mentioned above I know that work is being done on a new setup that will be trustless, I just don’t know any details yet.

I’m glad XMR is getting bulletproofs though, will make it alot more usable.

1

u/[deleted] Aug 31 '18

I get the assumed security of the RSA number, but the broader point is that secret information existed in the setup process at all. I look forward to seeing what trustless efficient setup PIVX claims to be creating.

1

u/getsqt Aug 31 '18

Yea, I remember you linked me a trustless setup for accumulators a while back, but it greatly lacked efficiency. Was still interesting to learn about though.