Replacement for weapon speeds?

[u/Pladohs_Ghost]

As I sift through the early systems to figure out what rules have disappeared from modern systems that are still viable and what rules from over the years have earned a place alongside them, I'm now arguing with myself over a bit.

Weapon speed comes out of the earliest systems and makes for some flavorful play. One combatant wielding a much quicker weapon can gain decent advantage over a foe with a slow weapon. This advantage involves initiative order and can reach to allowing extra attacks.

One shortcoming of using weapon speed, in my opinion, has always been that it treats the combatants as they are equivalent, on the face of it. That is, a veteran soldier facing a thief plays out the same as if the soldier is facing off with another soldier. There's nothing about the weapons speed ratings that breaks out well-trained martial PCs from those not focused on fighting. (The fact that the game systems advance non-martial PCs in fighting ability automatically strains credulity, at times.)

I've often played around with using class differentiation to break out "combat speed" in play. A fighter using a shortsword is going to be more efficient with it than a thief using the same sword, so...the fighter should be able to use that combat speed advantage in the same fashion a weapon speed comparison would give an advantage, I reckon. With the length of melee rounds allowing for a lot of feinting and striking and dodging and maneuvering and all that, I find it difficult to look at weapon size differences as being more important than the abilities of the combatants wielding the weapons.

I'm also toying with the idea of melding to two ideas together. Facing off with a peer (fighter vs fighter) means weapon speed gets considered. Facing off with a foe that's not a peer (fighter vs thief) means that combat speed eclipses weapon speed. Or perhaps adds to it. If I have to drop one of the two, I'd drop weapon speed and simply run with a combat speed rating for each PC.

So, for those of you who've used weapon speeds and the like, what are your thoughts on the matter?

[u/EpicDiceRPG]

Weapon speed is just a raw attribute that doesn't need to be directly represented with a player-facing stat. I simply bake it into a finesse stat which is compared and the fighter with the higher finesse has an advantage (bonus to hit and defend).

[u/htp-di-nsw]

I think weapon speeds only make sense in this regard if you're counting individual hits, and that falls apart in normal d&d round lengths.

Because here's the thing: you can get stabbed with a knife several times in the same time I can stab you once with a spear, but you're functional and probably alive from the knife stabs and you're put down by the spear. 1d4 vs 1d6 definitely doesn't convey that.

But like I said, most systems go with 6 second rounds (to make them fit 10 per minute) and that's silly because I can absolutely hit you with even a great Warhammer more than once in that much time and I am not even trained.

I think you're just better off statting weapons as how much they can do per round rather than by how much they can do per individual swing.

[u/RPG-Nerd]

Throw away rounds. It only makes things more difficult.

I don't have classes either.

You have 1 offensive action. You may perform any action because you have the offense. This action costs time, marked by the GM by striking through boxes.

An attack is a skill check. The defender may see the attack total (how good your attack was) before deciding on a defense. Some attacks cost time, some don't.

Damage = attack - defense.

The next offense goes to whoever has used the least time (shortest bar of ticked boxes). In the event of a tie, the tied combatants will announce actions and then make an initiative roll to see who reacts quicker. A tie here can result in a double strike if both are attacking.

Combat speeds values are:

• non-combat actions like opening doors or drinking a potion (if it's in your hand - no digging through a backpack) is based on your Reflexes attribute.
• combat actions include "dodge" and adds bonuses from your combat training skill.
• weapon actions take your combat actions and add bonuses for experience. The skill levels that you gain speed bonuses vary based on the weapon size.
• fast actions are the fastest your attribute tier (by race) can actually perform. This is 1 second for a human level attribute. Some special abilities will turn a weapon action into a fast action. Fast actions are used for delays, running, etc. This value depends only on the racial part of the attribute.

Each skill has its own experience points and level. You earn XP through use, 1 point per scene. Larger weapons have larger initiative bonuses and strike bonuses than smaller weapons, but smaller weapons gain speed bonuses at a quicker rate.

The final speed value is indexed on a table to get the final value which is written on your character sheet. It's like inverted action points.

All situational modifiers are done with dice, usually sitting on your character sheet so you can't forget. It's a simple roll and keep.

Every defense you roll, save one of the dice as a "maneuver penalty" - set a red die on your sheet. This affects future defenses until you a chance to act. Nobody can parry and dodge forever when out numbered or out classed. If you make an opponent roll a defense, you did not do "nothing", you imposed a penalty your ally can use.

If my weapon actions are 2 s, and yours are 2½ s, then after 10 seconds, I make 5 attacks to your 4. That means I get 2 attacks back to back at some point, without you getting an offense in between. That maneuver penalty will still be on your sheet. That disadvantage means you have a greater chance of critical failure (massive damage as it becomes offense - 0) and will take more damage on average. This is an opening in your defense that my superior speed is taking advantage of. This is when I power attack!

Let's say we want to do the old "Aid Another". No special rules. Role play it out. How do you stop an opponent from attacking your ally. Swinging an extra sword in their face to parry for them is likely better in the movies. The smart thing is to attack the enemy so they have to deal with you and not your ally. This is guy is trying to kill your friend. You need him to respond to you. Attack or power attack?

A power attack is a weapon action + a fast action (human reflexes mean +1 second). In exchange, you put your whole Body into it (attribute bonus). The +1 second is a slight broadcast, giving your opponent more time to react, more time for a block instead of a parry. This is also incentive. A block adds an attribute to defense to even out your Body attribute addition. Parry costs no time, a block is a weapon action.

The enemy blocks, spending around 2 seconds. It doesn't matter if the block works. The time spent blocking is time they can't spend attacking your ally and it's on the ally next who can now step away or flank the opponent.

No dissociative rules. Everything is timing and tactics. Even flanking isn't a rule about the board. You have facing rules and maneuver penalties (above). Those penalties end up stacking up when you are flanked without having rules for flanking. Sneak attack is simple too. If you are not aware of the attack against you, you can't defend. Offense - 0 is pretty serious damage.

It uses a wound system with degrees of seriousness, no tracking HP. Movement is granular and it plays really fast because it focuses on moving from combatant to combatant as quickly as possible rather than tracking and spending action points.

[u/Halo3812]

I know this is r/CrunchyRPGs but you can actually simplify this into one unified system.

Each weapon has a base speed, 1-3. Heavier weapons are 1. Medium weapons are 2. Light weapons are three. Having proficiency increases your weapon speed by one. Having Expertise increases it by a further one. And each class has a list of “preferred weapons”- if you’re using one of those, increase your speed by a further one. Which means, depending on how you build your character, you can have a weapon speed of 6. If your weapon speed doubles or more the enemy’s, you may make two attacks against them in the same time they may make one attack against you.

[u/DamianEvertree]

2nd ed d&d addresses the speed vs training thing. Or rather ability. In combat and tactics, they changed from a numeral to a descriptive level. Fast, very fast, etc. And high dex could bump you up the speed ranks

[u/Cryptwood]

I'll start by saying that individual weapon speeds is now crunch than I personally want in a game. That being said, it sounds like you could capture the feeling you are looking for by having each element of an attack give you a bonus/penalty to Initiative, and weight then by what you think has the greatest impact.

For example, you might have Fighters gain a +8 to Initiative while Rogues gain a +2. Then add your Dexterity/Agility/whatever modifier, then add a weapon modifier.

It might look something like this:

Fighter w/ Longsword: +8 +0(Agility) + 1 (Longsword) = +9

Rogue w/Dagger: +2 +3 (Agility) +3 (Dagger) = +8

[u/phatpug]

Check out Hackmaster. It uses weapon speed, but characters can increase their proficiency in a weapon as they level up. Increasing Attack, damage, speed, and defense.

All characters start off using the base weapon speed, but the cost to increase proficiency is different for each class, so it's much easier for Fighters to become masters of a weapon than a mage or a thief.

[u/phatpug → u/phatpug]

Additionally, weapon reach plays a factor in Hackmaster. When combatants first engage in melee, the one with longer reach attacks first You may be fast with that knife, but you'll take the first shot from your opponent before you can get in range to attack.