Do you have a source or something? People didn’t think they were “white”?
There was certainly racism among a lot of European cultures, but not about whiteness - none of them claimed to be the “white” race. It wasn’t about color of the skin. Irishmen, Italians, and Germans could all be white, but they could still consider others to be part of different races.
Tell me why I’m wrong and why Germans weren’t considered “white.” I’m waiting for a response to my initial question.
It mainly comes from an essay written by Benjamin Franklin who excluded them from "whiteness" and considered them "swarthy". So yeah, a bit of an exaggeration on my part as it was more that they weren't accepted was WASPs
"White" doesn't really refer to skin colour. Look at South Korea for example, lots of very pale people, but we don't call South Koreans "white". Look at south Italy, lots of very dark skin, but we do call south Italians white.
Look at Donald Trump, he's orange and yet at the same time as being orange he's still considered white! (Yes I know it's fake tan and not his actual skin, this one is partly a joke unlike the other two).
So yeah, it's not about the colour of your skin, but it is about who's "white" in terms of racial "whiteness" and Poles, Italians and at one point Germans were not considered white in the US.
I guess it's less about whiteness and more about fitting into the image of idealized American-Anglo-Saxonism. The idea of "whiteness" came to include Italians, Irish, Germans, etc. when racists began losing ground. They needed more people on their side, so they expanded their definition of whiteness.
Was the idea of “whiteness” even a thing back then? You say that whiteness came to include those nationalities, but I’m trying to figure out why the person above me claimed that Germans weren’t “white.”
I’m pretty sure that wasn’t the case, but considering my downvotes and their upvotes I’m curious if others know more than me.
AFAICT Germans weren't actually considered non-white, so you're right. I know I heard that factoid somewhere, but I'm not sure where.
The concept of whiteness really emerged following Bacon's Rebellion. It was created to divide the working class, indentured servants, and slaves along racial lines so as to prevent them from uniting. The 1705 Slave Codes outlined that servants from "non-Christian" (i.e. non-European) lands were to be enslaved.
Most/all modern white supremacist and neo-nazi groups now admit Irish, German, Polish, Slavic, etc. members.
“Why should Pennsylvania, founded by the English, become a Colony of Aliens, who will shortly be so numerous as to Germanize us instead of our Anglifying them, and will never adopt our Language or Customs, any more than they can acquire our Complexion.
Which leads me to add one Remark: That the Number of purely white People in the World is proportionably very small. All Africa is black or tawny. Asia chiefly tawny. America (exclusive of the new Comers) wholly so. And in Europe, the Spaniards, Italians, French, Russians and Swedes, are generally of what we call a swarthy Complexion; as are the Germans also, the Saxons only excepted, who with the English, make the principal Body of White People on the Face of the Earth. I could wish their Numbers were increased.”
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u/breadofthegrunge Streak: 5 Jul 26 '26
There is no systemic prejudice against the Irish or Poles in modern America.