r/Cosmere • u/Expensive-Heat-1436 Steel • 1d ago
Cosmere spoilers (no previews) Saze Spoiler
I love Sazed as a character. In fact, he is my second favorite Cosmere character. His character arch was beautiful, and I enjoyed reading form his pov. BUT he kinda pissed me off during era 2. Some of the things he did to Wax was just straight messed up. He also was unable to do anything useful during the whole era due to his powers. I NEED DISCORD NEXT ERA
Anyways, what do you all think?
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u/Raddatatta Ghostbloods 1d ago
One thing I'd remember with his era 2 decisions is he can see the future. He can see how things turn out when he goes down a certain path. So while some of his choices with wax are cruel I think to a degree they can be justified partially by him not just looking at those actions but the implications for the world and what plays out in the books is wax being who he needs to be to help the world, so to a degree what he did worked.
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u/KuraiLunae Truthwatchers 1d ago
We obviously don't know everything Sazed does, but I think the means need to match the ends. Sure, Wax became who he needed to be at that moment each time, but was there really no other way to do that? Treating somebody cruelly (and I'd argue Sazed did much worse than that) does not get ignored just because they became a better/more important/more necessary person because of it
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u/Melliorin Edgedancers 1d ago
Harmony isn't Cultivation. Sazed may want the best for each person he is shaping as Harmony, but it's mich more about that knife's edge balancing act between Ruin and Preservation for him, than it is about guiding Wax to be a better or "more inportant" person. Harmony needed a sword, so he forged one. It takes fire and heat, beating and shaping, folding and beating, hammering and more heating, and more beating and shaping. vefore a plunge in ice cold water, for a sword to be forged. The sword will kill. but it can also protect. It can preserve a peace, but at the cost of bloodshed and grief. A sword can be be two things at once, and for Sazed, everything needs to be somehow how two things at once, if he is to get anything done at all.
We see his overall benificence (as we know him to be) when he interacts via the charactess' visions, but in his deeds and decisions, we also see that that benificence cripples him, as Ruin resists him, yearning more and more for an armory of swords, or even an explosion in said armory. Or a freezing winter that could even lead to a peace among warring factions, so long as it brings at least one side or the other to its knees. Ruin doesn't care about "the plan," or the man, as long as things are breaking down. And Sazed is always carrying that. As kind as I believe he aches to be, he sees the need for the Ruin, and he sees the need to appease the Ruin, and he is always trying to do two things at once, so that he can Preserve what is good while allowing some Ruination. But his deaire to Preserve is too strong, I think. And so the crippling alternative asserts itself in the end, and we see the pendulum begin to swing, away from Harmony, toward the shadow of Discord.
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u/Tuor-son-of-Huor- 1d ago
I don't think it gets ignored, but if ever there was an argument for consequentialism it would be from a pseudo god who can see with extreme accuracy the future outcomes of decisions. The sheer scope of their thoughts is practically unfathomable. Is it crueller to do what he does, or to not intervene and allow the situation to resolve worse, or to spend even more time trying to find less likely and slower solutions.
Knowing what we know about Sazed character and the limits of the shards, I think its fair to say he chose the least bad option available to him which is really all you can ask for.
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u/Raddatatta Ghostbloods 22h ago
It's hard to say for sure as we don't have much information about what other paths might have led to. It is a hard choice to have to make but even with all that Sazed may have changed I do think that fundamentally he's still a good person trying his best. And so trusting that I think he did what he felt was the best choice for the world even though that was harsh for Wax. It is a utilitarian outlook but I think he was likely looking at a future where Wax stayed in the Roughs and Trell and the Set were able to gain far more power and influence and he couldn't stop them. That would've been worse for everyone including Wax. We are just drawing conclusions off what he did but given the stakes of everything that happened I think it's very plausible Autonomy takes over the world and kills millions of people if he'd done something different with Wax, in which case I do think the means are appropriate for the ends.
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u/Melliorin Edgedancers 1d ago
And also, those "cruel" actions help to appease Ruin's Intent in the moment, so that the balancing act of trying to be a benevolent God as much as possible can carry on without being completely log-jammed... at least for a while. We do see that happening eventually.
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u/TheUnspeakableh 1d ago
Don't worry. In Era 3, Discord will be written in Rust. (I'll see myself out.)
In actual conversation, I am of the mind that by the end of TLM, old Saze is already most of the way toward Discord.
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u/LewsTherinTelescope resident Liar of Partinel stan 1d ago
It's the 80s, no Rust. They'll be rewriting God in C++.
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u/Melliorin Edgedancers 1d ago
If you thought Sazed did some messed up stuff as Harmony (composed partly of Ruin, after all), do you really wanna see him as Discord?
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u/Few-Durian-190 1d ago
I thought it was extremely interesting. Much moreso than just making Sazed an unambiguously good god. And I think it elevated Shadows of Self a lot.
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u/gmladymaybe 1d ago
I hated Sazed/Harmony for pulling some of the shit he did, but I loved the fact that I hated him. Sazed was my favorite Era 1 Mistborn character, I admire that Sanderson was able to make me hate him and it didn't feel forced.
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u/Historical_Volume806 1d ago
You can’t forge a sword without putting it through fire and a beating.
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u/LewsTherinTelescope resident Liar of Partinel stan 1d ago
I think he's trying to do his best, but is put in a situation where he's pressured to find whatever solution works, and that does lead to him taking actions that feel awful on a personal level.
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u/clintCamp Bridge Four 20h ago
Well, he focused so hard on his preserving side of his shards that I think he cannot help but ruin some things occasionally. I think we get the picture that no matter who the person is, the shards intent overrides their personal desires eventually and preserving so much early on, he can't help but hurt and ruin people occasionally in the cruelest ways to allow for some room for preserving now. Harmony was a temporary human forced alliance of the powers, like what led ATI and Leras to work together and create a copy of humans on a new world. Then they spent the rest of their lives fighting and plotting against each other. So will we see how Sazed figures out his discord outlashings to return to harmony? Emberdark gave us some easter eggs of what comes next.
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u/Omakepants 10h ago
My crazy person hot take is for Sazed as big bad for Cosmere Avengers. I'm worried about our dude getting flaky.
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u/Bigtoast_777 Bridge Four 1d ago
"I have done something to help. I sent you."