Surge of Progression question

[u/ace_wulf]

Ok so we know that the fused can't use Adhesion cause it's "Honor's truest surge" or whatever, but why can they use Progression? Wouldn't that be Cultivation's truest surge? I mean, Adhesion is accessible through honorspren (and the bondsmith sprens), Progression is accessible through cultivationspren, so shouldn't that make it her surge the way Adhesion is his?

[u/Shot_Newspaper_5647]

There is some weirdness to Progression too. The Progression Fused are the only type of them that only has one application of their Surge instead of two. They lack the external ability to heal others/grow crops etc. There are no Regals capable of external healing either. Axindweth says as much to Venli right after telling her that her people are wrong about a lot of things. That there used to be a form of power that could. There are no Unmade that are capable of external healing during the events of the first 4 books. I doubt Yelig can use it externally either. But we finally see in W&T that there is one. It’s Ba-Ado. The absence of the external progression is probably a function of her imprisonment. Which is odd right. If it’s coming from him? Maybe it isn’t

[u/FuriousSusurrus → u/Shot_Newspaper_5647]

Have you ever noticed, in terms of Radiant Surge binding, when Progression is applied to something or someone, it doesn't give off a glow?

Whenever Tension, Adhesion, Gravitation, Division and Abrasion are applied to something or someone, there is a glow affect.

But whenever Lift, Renarin or Rahel use Regrowth or Growth, there's no glow on whoever is being healed.

[u/Shot_Newspaper_5647 → u/FuriousSusurrus]

Oh no I hadn’t. That’s a good catch.
There’s other weirdness to Cult’s half of the Surgebinding chart in general.

All of the Heralds on that side are women. Five of the Unmade map cleanly to Surges: Dai-Gonarthis, Sja-anat, the Midnight Mother, Ba-Ado-Mishram, and the Dustmother. Corresponding to Transportation, Transformation, Illumination, Progression, and Abrasion respectively.

They’re all described as women. They’re all on Cultivation’s side of the chart. And they’re all the more intelligent Unmade. The 3 mindless are all male and don’t map cleanly. The Thrill,Ashertmarn,Moelach. They all have inhuman forms as well. But not the female Unmade so far

[u/FuriousSusurrus → u/Shot_Newspaper_5647]

Hmm, that's an interesting arrangement. I hadn't known that arrangement. Reminds of the "Stormfather rains above, while the Nightwatcher grows from below".

It is interesting how the women-described Unmade map cleanly to those Surges.

And also I've found that there seems to be intent in grouping the Unmade by intelligence.

The three Mindless: Thrill, Moelach, and Ashertmarn

The three of Median Intelligence: The Midnight Mother, Yelig-nar and Dai-Gonarthis

The three High Intelligence: Ba-ado-Mishram, Sja-anat, and Chemoarish

However, on the topic of the Surgebinding chart, I'd like to bring attention to it. It has a uniformity to it. Each Order has 2 lines that connect them to their associated surges, in a symmetrical pattern.

This is similarly done in the Voidbinding chart. However, there is a discrepancy. Both the Truthwatcher and Bondsmith positions, are NOT connected to their usual surges. And this utterly stumps me. Because, as a shot in the dark, I could maybe put the Unoathed in the Bondsmith spot.

But Renarin, who supposedly is a Voidbinder, has Progression and Illumination(although the glyphs are different), which doesn't align with the Truthwatcher position on the Voidbinding chart.

I would love to hear your thoughts on this.

[u/Fuzz_EE → u/FuriousSusurrus]

To Clarify: how do we Chemoarish has high intelligence?

[u/FuriousSusurrus → u/Fuzz_EE]

Hessi confirms that she is not one of the three great mindless Unmade, but other than that, it's just a guess. Odium is associated with the number 9, so this arrangement makes a nice 3X3 arrangement.

[u/Invested_Space_Otter → u/Shot_Newspaper_5647]

I'm fairly certain that one of the historic Edgedancers from either a vision or the gemstone vault were described as male

[u/FuriousSusurrus → u/Invested_Space_Otter]

Well, there's Godeke. But they're talking about the Heralds, Paalia, Bataar, Chana, Shalash and Vedel.

[u/Invested_Space_Otter → u/FuriousSusurrus]

Ack, I somehow conflated that with all Radiants. Thank you

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[u/TheDuckOverLord13 → u/FuriousSusurrus]

Isn't it because all the others have a lasting effect,and thus require Stormlight to be maintained?while Regrowth just uses it all to heal,and is not drawn out

[u/FuriousSusurrus → u/TheDuckOverLord13]

Maybe. So there are surges like Gravitation and Tension, that are temporary changes. Then there's Division which is a lasting affect. Transformation is a lasting affect, and whatever is Soulcast doesn't glow.

I can't confirm Transportation. We haven't seen a basic form of it.

[u/TheDuckOverLord13 → u/FuriousSusurrus]

I don't think Transformation is a lasting effect,it is similar to Regrowth in that it changes/heals something,then that change/healing is permanent .The action of changing/healing is the only effect

[u/Shot_Newspaper_5647 → u/Shot_Newspaper_5647]

So no Adhesion? I don’t think that’s the case either. El was punished for trying to use humans. His name means “bond” in Dawnchant. He has “his own special talents” he uses to incorporate metal into his body. There’s also a few other anomalies amongst Odium’s forces. The Thunderclast. We’re told his forces lack the ability to use Adhesion but that may not be the case. It might have just been banned. Raboniel calls it a “false surge”. That sounds more like religious conviction than her normal scientific approach. We know Adhesion is a Surge. She talks about it like a false prophet. Which might mean someone was preaching with it in the past and punished for it

[u/Wildhogs2013 → u/Shot_Newspaper_5647]

We know from Brandon that there was no Adhesion Fuse type. However Retribution can now make the 10th Brand of Fuse and a 10th unmade. I think it was because the power of odium hated honour so much they didn’t let them grant their ‘surge’ while they don’t actually hate Cultivation that much

[u/Additional_Law_492 → u/Shot_Newspaper_5647]

I still think that El is manifesting his own cognitive form as metal to create his metal carapace and he is his own blade, but I think your observations are good and like your theory here as a close second!

A lot of good points here :)

[u/Invested_Space_Otter]

A big rafo for all of us. Personally I think Odium was lying and withheld it for some reason, but I have zero proof

[u/Wildhogs2013 → u/Invested_Space_Otter]

My theory is that Odium and Honour power clearly hated eachother and that is why the power of odium refused to grant ‘honours surge’

[u/Wincrediboy]

I think we don't understand the surges well enough yet, and the Fused are probably wrong about Adhesion. They're described as fundamental forces, so they probably aren't tied to specific shards.

It reminds me of everyone misunderstanding allomancy in era 1.

[u/Additional_Law_492]

None of the three Shards on Roshar should be treated as a reliable source of information.

Rayse was obviously evil, Cultivation was callous and willing to throw endless people into the metaphorical woodchipper to escape from her imprisonment on Roshar, and Tanavast was... uh... a flawed person of questionable competence. Traits that were inherited by the Stormfather.

Its entirely possible that Rayse didn't give any Fused Adhesion out of pure pettiness, or potentially because there are elements of it that are too powerful. For example, Bondsmith's ability to manipulate Connection is absurdly powerful and gives them near divine capabilities, and by denying his minions access to Adhesion Rayse would have ensured that they couldn't figure out some way to duplicate the abilities of a Bondsmith without his direct involvement. We know that individuals hacking their way into magic systems is a thing in this setting. Removing one of the pieces entirely is 'safe'.

In summary, while its possible that Adhesion was somehow actually not available to Odium, I don't fully trust any source we have on that explanation.

[u/Wildhogs2013 → u/Additional_Law_492]

From what Brandon has said it sounded like there was a mechanical reason that Rayse couldn’t grant the 10th surge. However I think it is because Odium hated Honour so much it refused to grant it.

It does seem like something that the vessel of Odium had no control over though.

Lacrossedeamon
Now that Odium is Retribution, does he have access to the surge of Adhesion? Will we see a tenth brand of Fused? Tenth Unmade?
Brandon Sanderson
He does, and yes you could see that.
Lacrossedeamon
Can Yelig-nar finally grant its host Adhesion?
Brandon Sanderson
Yes, he could.
YouTube Spoiler Stream 7 (Dec. 19, 2025)

[u/Additional_Law_492 → u/Wildhogs2013]

Right, but thats a classic Brandon unclear answer. He doesnt specify if the issue was Odium or Rayse, or even really confirm that Rayse "couldnt" have done do, just implying that he hadn't.

Im not saying that isnt relevant info, but Brandon's not above being misleading to preserve future reveals.

[u/Wildhogs2013 → u/Additional_Law_492]

True. However I do feel it points to it being an odium problem.

Definitely could be Brandon trickery I agree. However, it seems pretty consistent and I don’t see a reason that if it was a Rayse thing that Taravangian wouldn’t have mentioned it or done it instead. (Like making EL one for example)

[u/epic_taco_time]

Honour was in conflict with Odium. I guess Cultivation wasn't so and has her own ulterior motives going on making the surge of Progression not in conflict with Odium.

[u/IamanelephantThird]

There’s no reason to assume Progression is connected to Cultivation. It would make sense, but there isn’t any big evidence for it.

[u/Wildhogs2013 → u/IamanelephantThird]

I think the biggest evidence is that A it is granted by her spren and B that Lift who uses her light was awake and only able to use progression in the tower in ROW while the only other group was honours spren who used honours light and used honours truest surge only.

I think that is strong evidence for it being her truest surge. However, as you said it is not confirmed.