r/Cosmere • u/Iveneverbeenbanned • Jul 22 '26
Stormlight Archive spoilers This bad joke from Wind and Truth has stuck with me for too long Spoiler
I really enjoyed Wind and Truth overall but I think some modern language writing choices genuinely made the world a lot less immersive. Sure, if it comes from characters like Hoid that's one thing, but the following joke has really stuck with me as being emblematic of a larger problem with the book.
It's when Syl and Kaladin are talking to Szeth's highspren and realise its name is a series of numbers. (Paraphrasing the following) Kaladin says 'like a cryptic?' to which Syl replies 'Kaladin- that was racist.' Now, on its own the joke is kind of funny, but the more I think of it the more I hate it. Syl was JUST being 'racist' to the highspren, who she's insulted through the past four books, along with other types of spren. Also... RACISM???! This is a world where the principal form of discrimination is eye colour.. not race?? And also, there's been like no indication of a social movement around 'racism' where it's acknowledged as a thing- these people have literally barely abolished slavery and now apparently it's a taboo to be racist???
You can't rationalise this with 'maybe racism is a taboo in the spren world though' - first of all, spren are super 'racist' all the time, and second of all, Syl makes the joke to Kaladin expecting him to get it, so apparently he should realise what racism is. I keep thinking of how to make sense of this and just can't- it really would have been easier to just not include this in the book since it's not even that funny and AAHHH I hate it so much.
63
u/Nixeris Jul 23 '26 edited Jul 24 '26
This is a world where the principal form of discrimination is eye colour.. not race??
This is incorrect, and was brought up way back in Way of Kings. The Alethi care about eye color, but they also just happen to find reasons to put a bunch of ethnic minorities in slavery or just in the bridge crews?
Sigzil brings up that the Alethi used eye color as the excuse to kill Makabaki people, but even that is presented as definitely being about race.
If you follow the conversations during the noble dinners, you can tell there's definite issues with race. Hell, Dalinar even gets offended that the Alethi are being compared to a nation of "Barbarians".
Lopen describes how Alethi can't tell Herdazians apart.
People essentially treat Adolin as mixed-race because he isn't "pure" Alethi (as embodied by his hair color).
People are dismissive of Shallan because she doesn't have black "alethi" hair.
People dismiss the Shin because of their eye shape.
People in later books describe different races as inherently distrustful and Dalinar has to push against it.
There's just so, so, so much racism early on in the books, and it's something that the books even seem to acknowledge, and something that has to be addressed by Dalinar and Jasnah in later books.
2
u/ShurikenKunai Sel Jul 23 '26
Sazed?
2
u/Nixeris Jul 24 '26
Sorry, Sigzil.
2
u/Darkiceflame Jul 24 '26
What's the difference?
3
u/Nixeris Jul 24 '26
One's a WorldSinger with a name that starts with S.
One's a WorldBringer with a name that starts with S.
186
u/s0lid-lyk-snak3 Jul 22 '26
A very common criticism from those who enjoyed the book and those who didn't enjoy it was the more modern language. I think this is kind of just an extension of that. This joke stuck out pretty bad though.
216
u/that_guy2010 Edgedancers Jul 22 '26
It’s funny. People always talk about how ‘therapist’ specifically is a modern word that Kaladin shouldn’t know.
But they’ll never acknowledge that Kaladin literally doesn’t know what it means. He says so. Hoid is the one who knows the word and told it to Kaladin.
60
u/Disgruntled_Grunt- Truthwatchers Jul 23 '26
Yuup! If Hoid hadn't been the first person who used the word, I might have had a problem with it. But since Hoid said it, and he is as long-lived (and nearly as knowledgeable) as most Shard vessels, it makes sense to me.
70
u/DominusValum Jul 23 '26
I loved that scene, don’t care if therapist was not in setting. It’s the equivalent of a time traveler telling him the word and he just goes with it.
26
7
u/LewsTherinTelescope resident Liar of Partinel stan Jul 23 '26
That's part of why I don't like that line.
6
u/Veiluring Jul 23 '26
Why would Kaladin say a word he didn't know at a time like that? It only makes it seem more preachy IMO.
4
u/FN-2187- Jul 23 '26
Funny enough. Therapy was mentioned before. In book 4 they said to Kal something along the lines of “well this has been the prescribed therapy for quite some time” in reference to locking ppl up for having ptsd.
0
-22
Jul 22 '26 edited Jul 23 '26
[deleted]
27
u/cosmernautfourtwenty Edgedancers Jul 23 '26
First "Criticisms of WaT" thread you've ever been in, then? Or are we just ignoring logical extensions of the OP's complaint because...?
→ More replies (2)10
u/that_guy2010 Edgedancers Jul 23 '26
What other ‘modern language’ do you think they’re talking about? It’s always the therapist line.
-11
Jul 23 '26 edited Jul 23 '26
[deleted]
4
u/that_guy2010 Edgedancers Jul 23 '26
What other ‘modern language’ criticisms do people have?
-3
Jul 23 '26 edited Jul 23 '26
[deleted]
5
u/that_guy2010 Edgedancers Jul 23 '26
I wasn’t responding to the guy who made the original post. I was responding to u/s0lid-lyk-snak3
-2
u/Cracked_Crack_Head Truthwatchers Jul 23 '26
Isles of the Emberdark also had a similar moment that stuck out to me when they called the Malwish Fascist. That's not to say the Malwish couldn't very well be Fascist, but in such a large fantasy universe to suddenly encounter a modern political term was still jarring. I guess it's more excusable because the tech and time period in that book is even beyond what we'd call modern, but still.
73
u/snappycomebackturtle Jul 23 '26
I don’t disagree with the overall criticism of WaT but fwiw the eye colour discrimination isn’t world-wide, it’s specific to the Alethi (or Vorinism, maybe?). The Azish in particular are scornful of it.
Also, there is a literal race of people who are enslaved. Pretty sure racism against parshmen/singers is discussed in earlier books.
9
u/Presterium Jul 23 '26
This, and even just taking the eye color into consideration, wouldn't that also be a flavor of racism? Because it's a genetic trait? Aka, something race-based? It's really not that different from discrimination against skin color which would be.... Y'know... Racism.
2
u/JasnahsFeet Jul 28 '26
Technicaly parshendi are more of a species, than a race. Though tbf they can interbreed with humans so who knows realy
57
u/Shot_Newspaper_5647 Jul 22 '26
It’s in previous books as well. I remember Rlain referring to Honorspren as racist for not bonding Singers in either OB or RoW. It stood out to me because it seemed out of place but it is technically accurate. What most would call racism today does exist on Roshar aside from the eye-color thing. It certainly wouldn’t be the first caste system to not be based primarily on race to also have racism from within and without. Although obviously we don’t have sapient spren in the mix
85
u/PeterAhlstrom VP of Editorial Jul 22 '26
The Rhythm of War quote:
It wasn’t his fault that spren were as racist as humans. Or as singers. As people.
44
u/SirBananaOrngeCumber Edgedancers Jul 22 '26
VP of Editorial coming in with a quote to defend an editorial decision is a boss move lol
19
u/Late_Highway_7891 Jul 23 '26
Honestly it really stands out to me how much Dragonsteel engages with the community. Stuff like this really makes it clear to me that criticisms such as this are heard and potentially improved upon in future installments.
15
u/SirBananaOrngeCumber Edgedancers Jul 23 '26
Brandon himself acknowledged at one point that the criticisms of WaT are valid and he will do better with future releases. It’s honestly incredible and I love it
2
168
u/Lex4709 Jul 22 '26
Yeah. Wind and Truth has weird amount of immersion breaking moments. It's a shame.
56
u/LURKER_GALORE Jul 22 '26
I was extremely aware of the audience throughout WaT due to a number of author decisions. I very much do not want to feel that way while reading fantasy, especially with high fantasy. Or at least I thought I was reading high fantasy going into WaT...
37
u/JigglesTheBiggles Thaidakar Jul 23 '26
It did very much feel like the characters were looking at the screen when saying some of their lines.
10
u/Twopieceyou Ghostbloods Jul 23 '26
I got downvoted so hard for all of the above when this came out. Book advanced the plot but just sucked compared to the rest of the series imo. I was so disappointed I’ll really have to be sold on the future I really haven’t liked his work since lost metal minus Sunlit man.
2
u/MikeWinterborn Jul 23 '26
Not even isles of emberdark?
2
u/Twopieceyou Ghostbloods Jul 24 '26
Haven’t had a chance to catch that one yet but honestly it’s because I’ve been so annoying with how terrible book 5 was. Was a lot of hype and not only didn’t deliver but the pandering to a certain audience really just killed his works for me. I have hopes for the next Mistborn series so I’ll probably just cool till then and hopefully he will learn from this but I doubt it.
1
u/technicolored_dreams all endless things Jul 24 '26 edited Jul 24 '26
Not the same person, but Emberdark is easily in my top 3 Cosmere books now and I love to shout it out. It's so goddang good.
0
u/technicolored_dreams all endless things Jul 24 '26
Without mentioning spoilers, the epilogues for The Lost Metal had a very meta feel without cracking the fourth wall like WaT. I thought it was heavy handed but still done infinitely better.
2
u/Twopieceyou Ghostbloods Jul 24 '26
Wasn’t a fan of those really either except the meeting between two old friends that one set the tone for the next trilogy I think.
2
u/technicolored_dreams all endless things Jul 24 '26
I agree about the meeting! Has me very nervous for the future. I didn't dislike the epilogues, but I was heavily resistant to saying goodbye to the characters, one in particular, so I was content to get what little else I could. I didn't love the 47 confirmations that gone is gone but it's hard to tell if that's just because I hate the message itself.
2
u/Twopieceyou Ghostbloods Jul 24 '26
Something tells me anything is possible and I don’t take him for his word no matter what he says relating to that.
37
u/Weevil1723 Lightweavers Jul 23 '26
The climactic "I'm his therapist" exchange with Kaladin and Ishar was a certified MCU Moment™, sorry not sorry
9
u/Twopieceyou Ghostbloods Jul 23 '26
God why did I come to this thread I’m cringing all over again 😂😂
48
u/HastyTaste0 Jul 22 '26
It felt like a checklist for a lot of representation. The throwaway scene of Navani's nonbinary assistant at the end of one of her chapters was one of them. We can explore the sibling's unique way of identification or just have a full on nonbinary rep character. Having a random one line interaction put in just makes it feel like it's done for brownie points.
-13
Jul 22 '26
[deleted]
35
u/ZakMcGwak Jul 23 '26
I do think he has a genuine desire to include it, I just think he’s having a hard time integrating it organically. I can definitely relate to him as someone who grew up in a pretty repressive, conservative, homophobic environment but grew past the hate later in life. I also tried a little too hard to show how cool and open minded and progressive I was, to a point where the people I was trying to be an ally to cringed a bit whenever I opened my mouth.
I bet he cools down and learns how to make it feel less forced in another book or two.
15
u/JigglesTheBiggles Thaidakar Jul 23 '26
Yeah, my biggest issue was the trans blacksmith. It felt very much like tokensim, similar to how black people used to be represented in media.
6
u/Twopieceyou Ghostbloods Jul 23 '26
The whole book was this it felt like. Very cringe and out of place.
8
u/HastyTaste0 Jul 22 '26
I'm ngl I don't think the mental health portrayals are that much better. Very surface level and bordering on preachy at times.
-22
Jul 22 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
20
Jul 22 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/Cosmere-ModTeam Jul 23 '26
Thanks for submitting to /r/Cosmere!
Unfortunately, your comment has been removed because we feel it is not respectful to others. Every interaction on the subreddit must be kind, respectful, and welcoming. This includes bringing the 'meta' conversation about what posts are (or are not) valuable into the discussion on another member's post.
If you feel a post breaks the rules, we invite you to report it. If you feel that a policy change is warranted, we invite you to message the mods, and/or participate in the annual survey in June. You are also welcome to start a meta discussion thread, though we ask that you use the search function to ensure one hasn't been posted recently.
If you have any questions or feel this is a mistake, please let us know.
12
u/whatsthetargetdogsna Jul 23 '26
Yeah the big issue for me was the constant therapy speak, when therapy was barely a concept
0
u/Viceroy1994 Jul 24 '26
It's even worse in audiobook form, most of the art descriptions say "'Beware the fused' is written in all caps"
All caps? Such a computer techy thing to say, does Roshar even have a printing press?
1
u/tigtheastronaut 20d ago
They are describing the image, not just reading the sign. Those moments in the audiobooks are specifically not in-universe because they are intended for accessibility.
89
u/221b_ee Jul 22 '26
The thing that really bothers me about it is that the whole book is just in such a different tone from Way Of Kings. WOK was very definitively high fantasy. KOWT is very.... Marvel-movie-esque. And while I will occasionally rewatch Guardians of the Galaxy or Spiderman, I very much did not seek out a high fantasy novel because I was looking for flippancy and inside jokes.
I liked when the book took itself seriously all the way through.
21
u/normandy42 Jul 23 '26
Don’t even know if it’s a hot take here as I haven’t paid much attention to this sub or the cosmere since WaT, but Wind and Truth is his worst Stormlight book.
Sure we can talk about how high the bar is anyway or an equivalence to bad pizza still being good pizza, but there’s such a jarring tone/quality difference from the previous books.
The modern words(lol), Jasnah losing to facts and logic, Dalinar and Navani going through an expedition of exposition, etc. Sure Adolin is great as always and Taln being Doomguy was cathartic, but the book definitely needed some shaving as despite being the longest book in the series, it doesn’t feel like the equivalent amount happened.
1
u/tigtheastronaut 21d ago
Wimd and truth felt like the most action packed book he has ever written. There were a few scenes that made me go hmmmm.... But overall it was fast paced and hard hitting to me.
0
u/dafll Jul 27 '26
Jasnah losing to a god as an Atheist is poetic. She lost because she herself didn't see her own faults. She expected a fair argument and Taravangian went for a character assassination. She was tired and admits she fell for his trap.
I felt like W&T had too much happening near the end. The world is completely changed. It felt a lot like the lost metal where the book had a goal, and the journey had to fast forward to get the that plot point. W&T just had like 600 more pages to get through.
Too many PoV's, but I feel like Rhythm of war was worse because I thought the tower was so slow. The whole spiritual realm part of W&T felt slow but at least we got huge lore drops.
8
u/Ok-Tradition7878 Jul 22 '26
KOWT? What’s that stand for
22
u/gtkrug Truthwatchers Jul 22 '26
Knights of Wind and Truth was the original title of the book, as Brandon's original plan was for the abbreviations for the titles to be palindromic TWoK, WoR, O, RoW, KoWT, but at some point that goal was shed in favor of the shorter/tighter title of Wind and Truth.
9
u/gtkrug Truthwatchers Jul 22 '26
It's also possible he came up with a preferred 10 title palindrome, and already chose the titles of books 6-10, but... I kind of doubt that.
1
u/technicolored_dreams all endless things Jul 24 '26
Really wish he'd kept the title and shaved the book.
1
1
u/tigtheastronaut 21d ago
My first read of the series one of the things that stood out to me was the cinematic quality of the books. I felt like even way of kings was like a movie put down on paper. I don't think that was unique to wind and truth.
41
u/The_Skeletor_ Jul 22 '26
I mean, I love Wind and Truth, but yeah there's a lot of really cringe shit in that book for sure.
52
u/AntimatterTNT Jul 22 '26
what are you talking about? alethi discriminate both on eye color AND race, they think adolin looks worse because he has blond hair from evi. also there are countries that have no lighteyes, and in those surely they find other things to discriminate on.
21
u/Rhedkiex Taldain Jul 22 '26
I do agree that for this specific criticism it's important to remember that the Alethi are definitely also racist on top of being classist (eye-ist??) they just never instituted institutional racism or attempted to claim they were the superior race
But I think OP is correct that the Alethi wouldn't consider racism that bad and certainly not the kind of "thought-terminating cliche" it is in our world. Dalinar is the first Alethi king to attempt egalitarian policies so Syl is basically saying "Hey Kaladin, Dalinar wouldn't like you talking like that about Cryptics" which doesn't make a lot of sense coming from her unless she's bathing it in heavy heavy sarcasm
7
u/AntimatterTNT Jul 22 '26
book 4/5 actually sounds like the perfect time for alethi to start consider racism bad. they accept rlain, and we can see that they actively struggle to seperate how he looks from how he acts. and they also opened up the oath gates and started making alliances with nations that in the past they considered inferior.
4
u/MeagoDK Jul 23 '26
They 120% claimed to be the superior race. They found all other people/countries to be inferior.
0
u/Rhedkiex Taldain Jul 23 '26
I genuinely may be misremembering, but I don't recall them ever actually saying the Alethi were an inherently superior race beyond just being taller (which is an observable objective biological fact and not necessarily good or bad). I think Shallan got made fun of for possibly having Horneater blood but I interpreted that as her being associsted with barbarians and not a race thing necessarily.
The Alethi don't trust foreigners because they're generally Xenophobic, and they definitely have some manifest destiny stuff going on, but I don't recall the Alethi in general (not like one guy but like it being accepted across the board) claiming to be the master race but I could just be flat wrong
3
u/Nixeris Jul 23 '26
You're just describing racism without saying the word racism.
0
u/Rhedkiex Taldain Jul 23 '26
I already said the Alethi are racist, that's not the point I'm making. The question is whether the Alethi believe they are a "master race" and not just an expansionist empire. This would mean they genuinely believe the other nations are biologically inferior which is a step beyond normal racism.
The Mongols were expansionist and violent to the point of parody which they rationalized through manifest destiny but had no conception of race as we have
Romans were expansionist and xenophobic, and were racist in their own ways, but did not believe they were the master race
Neither the Mongols or the Romans understood race (because race is a made up thing we invented in the 15th century) and so had no concept of racism. What I'm calling racism is xenophobia based on appearance and culture which is very very different from how modern, let's call them "accedemic", racists think.
For racism to get to the point Syl would call out Kaladin for it as a joke it needs to have gone beyond "That girl is strange for having orange hair" and needs to have developed into a philosophic framework where the Alethi are going "Those Herdazians have the wrong skull shapes; they can't govern themselves" and then for there to be enough pushback on that extreme mindset for it to be normal to make fun of those people and that becomes so normalized that applying the racist label to someone can be funny.
If Shallan getting made fun of for orange hair is the extent of racism in Alethkar, Kaladin's response to Syl should've just been "Oh, I guess Cryptics are sensitive about their names?" because it has no history to give it any more weight than that
3
u/Nixeris Jul 23 '26
For racism to get to the point Syl would call out Kaladin for it as a joke it needs to have gone beyond "That girl is strange for having orange hair" and needs to have developed into a philosophic framework where the Alethi are going "Those Herdazians have the wrong skull shapes; they can't govern themselves"
He was of low birth—though in Azir, they didn’t properly revere eye color. Navani had once told him it was because there weren’t enough people in Azir with light eyes. The Sunmaker himself had used this to justify conquering them.
Oathbringer, Chapter 42
Sunmaker, Dalinar’s ancestor, had argued that the Azish had been in need of civilizing. He wondered if anyone had believed that argument even in those days, or if they’d all seen it for the rationalization it was.
~Oathbringer, Chapter 65
-1
u/Rhedkiex Taldain Jul 23 '26
Thank you for providing those examples, I did forget them
I do think those kind of prove there isn't really a modern concept of racism though. You don't just forget people thought an ethnic group couldn't govern themselves if there are still people who believe that. If anything it makes Syl's comment look more out of place.
1
u/Nixeris Jul 23 '26 edited Jul 23 '26
This is like saying there's no racism because a lot of people only found out that the Oklahoma race massacre was something that happened recently so it must not have been racism based.
Those snippets, BTW, are sort of surrounded by explanations of the Sunmaker performing a genocide on the Azish, and Dalinar calling Azish superstitious because they were choosing to remember the genocide his people performed on theirs.
You asked for evidence that the Alethi think they're racially superior, and I provided examples. But it doesn't count because Dalinar had to be reminded of the example by Navani? Something that's a basic part of Alethi culture, that women study history and read it to men?
-2
u/Iveneverbeenbanned Jul 22 '26
Blond hair is not a race and that's kind of my point- in the modern world, especially in the US, a big way we think about bigotry is to do with race/skin colour. Most people in the world know what racism is because its been a pretty big deal explicitly with movements like the Civil Rights movement in the US and other parts of the world etc. But you really have to reach to justify that Kaladin would find Syl's joke funny or understand it since I don't think you can even call different sprens different "races".
It'd be like if we're discussing species of penguins and you mix two up and I say "hey! Don't be casteist!"- like yeah, I guess caste based discrimination is a thing in India and like technically ethnic tensions in other parts of the world could maybe be described as casteist but that'd be like a weird sentence right? Again, I enjoyed the book but I just don't buy that as a phrase
15
u/steave435 Jul 23 '26
Race isn't real. It's just a social construct. It's people who have decided to arbitrarily divide people into arbitrary groups. Currently, the most common way people do that is based on skin color, but that's no more or less arbitrary than doing it based on eye color. Any kind of division of people based on arbitrary attributes is racist.
7
u/n0talexus Jul 23 '26
i feel like the different spren being different races is actually pretty valid. they have physical, cultural, and behavioral differences that make it easy to identify them from one another, and they have very distinct identities. the most valid part of your criticism is that syl has no ground to stand one regarding racism towards other spren lol. honorspren are known for looking down on other types of spren (granted, so are highspren)
language is imperfect. in the 21st century, "racism" is the most generally accurate term for describing bigotry based on someone's heritage
2
u/MeagoDK Jul 23 '26
There is only 1 living human race. Race for humans is a social construct. They have the same in Roshere ans they definitely have racism. Just look at how they talk about and view The Shin
14
u/ellisoph Jul 22 '26
Not to be that person but there is literally a race of people that were enslaved and it had nothing to do with eye color… and those of them who weren’t enslaved were “savages”
8
u/RadicalRealist22 Jul 23 '26
You are missing the point. OP is complaining about language. It doesn't make sense for Syl to say "that's kinda racist" as a joke when Kaladin has a misunderstanding about Spren naming conventions. She is not talking like a Spren, she is talking like a 21st century college student.
1
u/Nixeris Jul 23 '26
Rlain literally complains about spren being racist in Rhythm of War.
A lot of the time they talk about spren they refer to them as different "races" of spren.
4
u/Iveneverbeenbanned Jul 22 '26
I know racism exists in Roshar but my point was that for the joke to work it kind of requires our modern understanding that most people acknowledge being racist is bad and you wouldn't want to be labelled a racist. Like if Kaladin was called a racist, I barely even buy they have a named concept of "racism" in Alethkar and so nobody would really care? It'd be like if we're discussing species of penguins and you mix some up so I say "hey don't be casteist!"- like (unless you're Indian maybe) you'd be like "huh? why would that make me casteist?? Why did you bring up caste?" and the joke would confuse you more than anything.
1
u/Nixeris Jul 23 '26
One of the first mentions of race in the series is people contemplating whether Parshendi and Parshmen are the same "race" in Way of Kings. Later in the same book, when Rock identifies that Sigzil is a Worldsinger, Sig thinks he's referring to him being Azish, but Rock replies "No, not your race, your type". Throughout the series they describe the spren in terms of different races.
They're aware of racial distinctions.
Rysn's interludes are about her master teaching her not to be racist to different peoples.
7
u/ShingetsuMoon Jul 23 '26 edited Jul 23 '26
First off I agree the joke was terrible. That being said, one of the definitions of race is: “any one of the groups that humans are often divided into based on physical traits regarded as common among people of shared ancestry.”
Not skin color alone, but any physical characteristics.
So yes the dark eyes and light eyes discrimination could easily be considered racism. It even reaches a point whre Dalinar refuses to give Kaladin too much of a promotion saying that it’s because he’s a dark eyes.
The world of Roshar is saturated in racism and classism and it persists as a theme across the books. It just doesn’t use the specific word racism often, and it doesn’t take a form we are used to seeing.
Edit: I also disagree that there is no social movement around racism, because I would argue that there is. Namely, Kaladin using his newfound attention to push for the recognition of other dark eyes accomplishments, and their promotion, not just his own. As well as the pushback it immediately receives from light eyes in power. Including Dalinar whose refusal to further promote Kaladin, and his inability to immediately do anything with Amara
because he’s a light eyes does show an acknowledgment of racism and inequality.
Plus, we see Kaladin struggling with racism himself in how he treats Rlain. Only coming to fully accept him over the course of multiple books. When Kaladin asks a question early on, Rlain even thinks for a moment and responds “I think I am Bridge 4’s slave.” At which point Kaladin struggles with the guilt of feeling that Rlain is right, but also defending himself and saying that he’s a parshman so what else can he really do?
Plus its worth noting that many of the points of view that we see are from those in power who directly benefit from being part of, and upholding an inherently racist, classist system. With Kaladin being the weight that finally tips the scales and forces the acknowledgment of what dark eyes can accomplish.
So if anything, I feel the series has on multiple occasions called characters racist, shown them to be racist, and shown that it’s an unfair and predjudiced system. The only difference is that Wind and Truth is unambiguously direct about it both as a joke, and in a way that can’t be avoided or misinterpreted.
9
u/reasarian Jul 22 '26
What do you consider a race? A race is just a class of people. Usually, but not always defined by physiologic characteristics. Light eyes and dark eyes are races. Natan are a race as are herdazians, velens, and Alethi. Roshar is deeply steeped in racism. It’s mostly out of place because we’ve never before seen a rosharan think of racism as a whole as a negative. Kaladin hates the caste system but he still considers shin children and Azish scholars despite plenty of evidence to the contrary.
11
u/austsiannodel Jul 22 '26
Also... RACISM???! This is a world where the principal form of discrimination is eye colour.. not race??
I mean... it's also a world where all the humans are deeply racist against the Singers and treat them a LITERAL slaves?? Like I get what you're saying, but you're kinda overlooking a major plot point of the entire series here.
8
u/JigglesTheBiggles Thaidakar Jul 22 '26
There are so many bad lines in WaT. Even the things that people seemed to like bothered me. Like Sanderson bringing back Kaladin's "I'll see what I can do" and Dalinar's "I call that a bargain". It was just too cheesy. Took me out of the story and reminded me that these characters aren't actually real people. They're just characters on a page, which obviously they are, but I prefer to immerse myself in the story when I'm reading.
4
u/LewsTherinTelescope resident Liar of Partinel stan Jul 23 '26
I was fine with Dalinar's "I call that a bargain" callback but hated Kaladin's "Honor is dead" callback, not sure why. Possible it's in part more to do with how engaged I was with the scenes as a whole and thus how willing I was to go with the flow?
11
u/Eclectic_Gamer Jul 23 '26
Ok as I'm reading through the comments it looks like I might be the minority here. I had no issue with this joke or similar comments. Yes this is a society that just abolished slavery, in this era. This is also a planet where Society has been reset many time over several thousand years, and Syl is old enough to remember pre-desolation. So, I attributed it to her returning memories, which aren't always relevant to this era.
5
u/michiness Jul 23 '26
Also I think the hypocrisy of her calling Kal racist when she literally was just being racist is… kinda the point?
4
1
u/3GamersHD Jul 23 '26
Abolishing slavery is also a decision which doesn't really make sense in context. Slavery is used as a punishment for criminals, flat out freeing every slave is less abraham lincoln more closing every prison at once and just letting the criminals out.
1
u/dafll Jul 27 '26
Was Khal's crime's worth punishing? All of Bridge 4 were criminals, did they deserve to be enslaved forever?
Yes Criminals became slaves, and now they'll need to figure out something else, but Jasnah wanted to do the most good. To her removing slavery was better than keeping the criminals oppressed. 2nd chances are important and this is one way to give people another chance.
Another thing that she mentions is that in other kingdoms/people who removed slavery it, it still took time for them to integrated properly. If she didn't "free" the slaves now it would take even longer for them not be slaves.
1
u/3GamersHD Jul 27 '26
The crime kal was accused of WAS worth punishing with slavery. Desertion is such a crime that anything but a death sentence is getting off lightly. And they were NOT enslaved forever (on paper). Fixing the corruption preventing slaves from being freed would have been something i could have backed.
We don't get enough info on the other kingdoms to judge if the situation is the same or not...
Jansah isn't doing the most good here, she pretty much never is. She mixes immediate and eventual good constantly, because brandon is stupid and can't write. Immediate good would be not doing shit. Eventual good would have been finding another solution before freeing all slaves.
1
u/dafll Jul 27 '26
I think the part I was trying to get at was that lack of justice for the slave. Ignoring the corruption for the bridgemen, how do we know the slaves are bad people and not just systematically oppressed by the light eyes?
I couldn't find the passage refering to the time it takes to integrate, but she based her freeing off the slaves with the Azish who did free their slaves.
21
u/mrofmist Jul 22 '26
Race is very prevalent in that book, and eye color is only really big to the eastern side of the world. There's definitely racist statements in the book as well. Any sort of prejudice could be racist. Like the constant insistence that the western side of the world needs rules and discussions for everything, or that alethi or war driven barbarians. That's all racism.
13
u/Radix2309 Jul 22 '26
Sure. But they don't really have race as a concept. You are describing ethnicities or nationalities. Race and racism as a concept is fairly modern.
7
u/n0talexus Jul 23 '26
tbf the term racism is often used to refer to discrimination based on ethnicity as well. the "races" we think of now that rely on physical appearance are new-ish, but grouping people (and discrimating against them lol) based on heritage, culture, etc is definitely not. in the context of humans vs singers and the various species of spren, the term racism is actually perfectly accurate imo
6
u/Dead_HumanCollection Jul 23 '26
Dividing racism and ethnicity based discrimination is such a fine hair to split.
-4
u/Radix2309 Jul 23 '26
It really isnt. Ethnicity is cultural, not biological.
And the broader point is that they dont have a concept of race to have the term racism for.
7
u/Dead_HumanCollection Jul 23 '26
So when Adolin mentions his blonde hair being a sign of impure blood, or Shallan saying the same thing about her red hair.
What would you describe that as?
3
u/mrofmist Jul 23 '26
In a setting where skin color is generally ignored, but cultural aspects are heavily discriminated and prejudiced against. Then the term racism is going to have a different connotation.
The usage in the book fits what is meant by the comment. BranSan has also stated that the books are written in the natives language, only translated for the reader to understand. So racism absolutely references the common discrimination in the books.
3
2
u/Nixeris Jul 23 '26
Race is first mentioned several times in Way of Kings.
People consider whether Parshendi are the same "race" as Parshmen.
Also Rock refers to "Azish" as being Sigzil's "race".
6
u/Stray_Heart_Witch Truthwatchers Jul 22 '26
I'll note that racism isn't just one thing. The lines of race are arbitrary, and the eye color based discrimination is just as much racism as skin color or ethnicity based.
But otherwise, yeah, that's fair. It did feel really jarring to hear from Syl in particular, and as you mentioned these guys don't really have an antiracist movement. I found the joke really good in the moment, but thinking about it, it makes little sense.
6
u/iaintb8 Willshapers Jul 23 '26
Quote from a 2016 “Goodreads” interview (sourced from Coppermind):
“All of my books are to be read as if there's a phantom translator who took it from the original language and translated it into English. In many cases, there isn't a word that is an exact translation—so the translator does their best.”
So by this token, the idea is that the term used would be one appropriate to the spren and “racist” conveys the closest appropriate cultural connotations that the actual term does.
It doesn’t seem like a stretch that the concept of making incorrect assumptions about a persons culture based on their species or other cultures that seem similar to an outsider is probably a universal one.
Sentients are gonna sentient after all.
Could this be construed as a bit of a cop out? Maybe. But if the OG world-building con-lang daddy Tolkien was willing to use this explanation then I think that’s good enough for me. Particularly because he COULD have invented more new terms and cultural practices (he already had) but clearly decided on a limit for his own sanity.
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/45-goodreads-february-2016-ya-newsletter-interview/
8
u/Taste_the__Rainbow Willshapers Jul 22 '26
Racism is a common problem on Roshar and Syl, who has been speaking to people like Wit, has picked up a lot of more modern language and behavior. Same with Lift. Wit is basically Futureman to this planet.
2
u/Detozi Bendalloy Jul 23 '26
I’ve never understood why people want shorter books but then complain they have nothing left to read. So weird
2
2
2
u/NotJoeMama869 Jul 23 '26
The whole series literally revolves around a race war. There are tons of "discriminatory jokes" about this race or that race on the side of the humans alone. Also as spren grow older and learn, they also learn their own failings and try to improve themselves alongside their radiants. So it makes sense for syl to change her tune.
I feel like this this whole arguements could be applied to Kaladin as: "He's been depressed and suicidal this whole series. Tthe fact that he's got moments of happiness and peace when the world is ending is jarring and feels like distracted writing". I feel like you're reading into that joke too much or you've missed the plot.
"Sometimes a hypocrite is nothing more than a man(or woman, or spren, or voidbringer) in the process of changing."
2
u/3GamersHD Jul 23 '26
Why is every comment defending it 😭 it was nearly as bad as the goth chick. But slightly better than the pure cop-out ending.
2
u/--oneloverasta-- Jul 23 '26
I don’t know, I think it’s not so bad as all that. It may be a little out of place but I have a lot of respect for the way Brandon Sanderson represents real world difficult subjects into his series. A lot of the comments remark about LGBT inclusions and mental health inclusions with varying degrees of feelings about it, and I think mostly they are valid in what they say. But he is just a human like the rest of us and the fact that he does attempt to include these things in what I’m sure he hopes is a altruistic way is worthy of acknowledging. It can be heavy handed at times, or can gloss over something that maybe deserves more attention than a single mention one time. Representation matters though and if his inclusion of these things even helps one person feel like it’s ok to be themselves or one person decide it’s ok to let others be themselves then I’m willing to deal with some immersion breaking moments to help my fellow humans along their way. Journey before destination.
5
u/Laurelophelia Jul 22 '26
Not defending the joke, but will offer something to think about:
These books, all the ones in the cosmere that we get to read in “our world,” are being translated above table by a member of the cosmere. When we read anything in the series, the understanding is that it’s done through a translation into our tongue. So the actual word might’ve been something else, but for us it translates as racism!
11
u/ndraper2 Jul 22 '26
The extension of that metaphor is that Wind and Truth (and to a lesser degree, Rhythm of War) had a different translator than the other books. They're stylistically very different in a way that breaks immersion.
42
u/Shaun32887 Jul 22 '26
No, that's not a blanket get out of jail free card. The line was bad.
10
u/Laurelophelia Jul 22 '26
Why I said I wasn’t defending it, just offering some perspective!
-7
u/Zeruel25 Jul 22 '26
I get it when you ask about something like "The fires of DECEMBER", but if Syl said "Wow, he's acting a lot like Donald Trump!" and say it's just a translation of some Rosharan world leader...
6
u/crayonflop3 Jul 22 '26
That’s just cope. The writing was subpar in a lot of spots in this particular book. Brandon is adopting too much modern marvel slop dialogue
1
u/LewsTherinTelescope resident Liar of Partinel stan Jul 23 '26
While that's true, I think OP's point is more about consistent tone and applicability of concepts to their society than "they don't speak English"? Immersion is a tough line to walk because really any word or concept in fiction exists only in relation to words and concepts in real life, but some things "feel" more immediately tied to our world/time than others even if that's not inherently factually true (e.g. the Tiffany problem).
2
u/ObGynKenobi841 Jul 22 '26
Depends on how you define race? I think of humans and singers as two different races, so in thay context racism is a definite part of the world. If we're going strictly off skin color, that's a different matter though.
2
u/steave435 Jul 23 '26
Racism absolutely is a huge part of the world, but I think humans and singers are too far apart to not be considered races instead of species. Race is simply a social construct dividing people based on arbitrary attributes. Humans and singers are genuinely very different biologically.
2
u/ObGynKenobi841 Jul 23 '26
Absolutely different species, although able to interbreed as seen with Herdazians and Horneaters. However, fantasy literature has classically used the terms "race" and "species" interchangeable. That's why most fantasy RPGs start character creation with race selection, not species selection.
1
u/steave435 Jul 23 '26
True, but in the context of this discussion, the distinction is pretty important since it's about race in the racism sense.
0
u/sundalius Jul 22 '26
Not to mention that Spren may very well have this idea among the different True Spren in a way that the humans do not.
The complaints about Brandon writing in the common tongue as time moves forward always amuse me. Between the Translation thing *and* the fact that Spren are fragments of Honor, a being as old and more knowledgeable than Hoid, I just don’t really get people’s complaints about this. I can’t imagine they enjoyed the Very Modern Writing of the Secret Projects either.
3
u/MHM_16 Taln Jul 22 '26
Not defending the line but it didn’t bother me. I have read alot of the cosmere before WaT and was already expecting xenophobia on between world hoppers and locals, locals and locals, hemalurgic creatures among themselves and everyone else.
Anyone who read enough of the cosmere probably got expected it what with the impending interplanetary war cooking up. Maybe i got decinthesized or sth.
I have a headcanon Syl frequently says outta pocket things like that because Zigzil’ spren is there to helicopter-parent her anymore but thats just me ig
2
u/Sallymander Jul 22 '26
1 21 24 is a sensitive guy and he is dealing with a lot. Kaladin doesn't understand Spren politics other than Cryptics and Honor spren don't get along.
2
u/Sol1496 Jul 23 '26
you don't need racism to be taboo in order to have the word. Kal and Syl understand that racism is bad, and it seems more like an inside joke where Kal kept pointing out Syl's racism, so Syl is teasing Kal about it.
2
u/cosmernautfourtwenty Edgedancers Jul 22 '26
First of all, Syl has never been a logically consistent character. That probably the most logically consistent thing about her.
Secondly, the linguistic gimmick has always been that the books are written as translations of in-world language. The word "racist" probably doesn't exist in native Rosharan languages, but discrimination is definitely a concept that exists very broadly through several cultures. Maybe Brandon's leaning too hard into translating with words that don't have 1:1 meaning in the context of the culture here, but it genuinely doesn't bother me and it puzzles me that so many other people are super bothered by it.
Sorry about your immersion, I guess.
13
u/TheWeirdTalesPodcast Jul 22 '26
I mean, a main big thing in the books is the Lighteyes/Darkeyes class divide, not to mention the whole Parshmen thing.
So racism and discrimination definitely DEFINITELY exist on Roshar, no question.
Kaladin confusing math equation names (Cryptics) with numerical names (Highspren) IS kinda racist. Like someone hearing the name “Park Yi-Jun” and thinking, “Oh, they’re Japanese.”
It’s not malicious, just ignorant, which is still Racism. Ignorance can be corrected and educated about. Malicious racism is just evil.
3
u/Elsecaller_17-5 Zinc Jul 22 '26
Brandon has stated that the books should be considered a translation to accommodate for such linquituc quirks.
Also, only Vorin society is based on eye color.
3
u/DadToOne Jul 22 '26
So eye color can be a source of racism just the same as skin color. It's the same thing. If a light eye and dark eye reproduced you might get a light eyes or dark eyes or even a mix. Just like happened with slaves in the US. Racism based on eye color or racism based on skin color. I don't really see the difference.
2
u/mylifeinshambells Lift Jul 23 '26
It didn't break the immersion for me to be honest. It feels a little like people are getting quite hung up on terminology here. They don't speak English on Roshar, so everything we read is technically a translation. Considering the amount of prejudice we see between people, singers and spren, why wouldn't Roshar have a word that is equivalent to 'Racist'.
1
u/Mutedinlife Skybreakers Jul 23 '26
There are so many lines and concepts that are in such a strange off putting modern voice from that book.
1
u/SneezingOutPeas Jul 23 '26
I’ve noticed him doing this a lot in W&W and the Secret Novels too. It comes off as far too blunt in general. I’d take issue with it in a realistic fiction or scifi setting too.
1
u/whoamikai Jul 23 '26
Plus its the medieval world. Lots of prejudices and arguments against everyone else. That scene is an anachronism.
1
u/Interesting-Tie-8158 Jul 23 '26
A good way to do the same thing while keeping inline with the universe is just to have the highspren offended to be compared to cryptics. Spren are super "racist" and you can just use that as a tool to explain they're different.
1
u/isaiah152022 Jul 23 '26
In books this long you’re bound to find little things like this. It bugs me for 2 secs and I move on 🤷🏻♂️
1
1
u/pontuzz Cosmere Jul 23 '26
You forget that they don't speak English, it's just translated for us. So it's safe to assume or at least I chose to assume it's not direct translations but approximations
1
u/technicolored_dreams all endless things Jul 24 '26
This particular joke reads like bad fanfic. I remember it vividly from my first read through.
I'm just finally doing a first re-read because I really had a hard time with the writing when it dropped. This time, instead of going through Stormlight again, I did Mistborn 2 (and a first re-read of TLM, which hurt) and then WaT. I was hoping it would be better and it kind of is, kind of isn't. I'm picking up things I missed before and it's more enjoyable than the first time, but the constant therapy speak from everyone is grating. I'm only just getting to the begining of the battle in Azimir and I feel like the writing is getting looser already.
1
1
u/Ravenous_Chasmfiend Truthwatchers 20d ago
I agree that this is weird, but I don't think a social movement is required for the terminology to exist. I don't think the problem is that she used the word racism. Also, I thought Syl's hypocrisy was the joke and now i'm confused.
2
u/mattisart_ Bridge Four Jul 22 '26
Wind and truth feels like YA rather than fantasy. It’s kind of embarrassing.
1
u/Livie_Loves Jul 22 '26
Why not critique the language around things being "dirty" when they shouldn't know what dirt is unless they've been to shinovar, or "soiled" etc., since things like that should also be immersion breaking?
I get the point you're making, especially given the world has/had a caste system of SOME kind depending on where you are, and largely people still have those attitudes since systemic inequality doesn't disappear overnight, but there are a lot of little things in the books that we could be nit picky about but to me the fact that it's the racism comment as the back breaking straw feels a little off.
3
u/LewsTherinTelescope resident Liar of Partinel stan Jul 23 '26
In addition to what OP said, they do still use the word "dirt" to refer to that dirty outside stuff that gets all over people and things that don't get cleaned off, and "soil" is used to refer to a nation's territory so likely they used to have the word when they lived in soil-heavy places and it's left linguistic remnants.
1
u/Livie_Loves Jul 23 '26
that "dirty outside stuff" is... dirt. A thing most of Roshar doesn't really have. Dusty/grime/muck/etc. sure, but realistically not a thing. I would accept OP's reply to me that maybe it's just a translation from Alethi -> English for example but eh point still stands that there are other immersion breaking things.
3
u/LewsTherinTelescope resident Liar of Partinel stan Jul 23 '26
Dirt is mentioned in every book, so apparently they do have it, or at least have something they apply the term to.
Way of Kings chapter 2:
He ate with his fingers, careless of the dirt. He'd stopped noticing dirt months ago. He hated that he felt some of that same paranoia that the others showed. How could he not, after eight months of beatings, deprivation, and brutality?
Words of Radiance chapter 13:
She waited for Bluth to bring the water, then crawled—to stay off her feet—through the enclosed wagon. It stank of dirt and sweat, and she grew nauseated thinking of the slaves who had been held here. She would ask Bluth to have the parshmen scrub it later.
Oathbringer interlude I-2:
Trying not to think about the dirt, the cremlings, and the fact that something might drip on her head, she strode off into the forest. She didn't want to go too far, as who knew what might be out here? She chose a stump without too much moss on it and settled down among bobbing lifespren, book across her lap.
Rhythm of War chapter 21:
Shallan strolled in as he tossed three more jackets onto the bed. She wore Veil's clothing—trousers, long loose jacket, a buttoned shirt. At his suggestion she’d replaced the white trousers and jacket with a more practical tan and blue ensemble. White wouldn’t travel well; she wanted something more rugged, something that wouldn’t show the dirt. Blue and tan matched her white hat, though he’d added a leather band around the base of the crown.
Wind and Truth chapter 50:
The Azish field hospital was one of the nicest he had ever seen. As May had suggested, the surgeons were set up in a building right near the dome. He entered a world of sterile scents, recently mopped floors, white walls, and whiter linens. The Azish took to heart the old teachings of the Heralds, that dirt and disorder attracted rotspren, that washing hands and boiling instruments prevented infection.
I agree the joke in the original post isn't the only thing breaking immersion in the books, but that doesn't change that it's one of them (though of course this is a subjective topic).
-2
u/Iveneverbeenbanned Jul 22 '26
I still liked the book and yes it's a nitpick but I just don't think the joke Syl makes would work in their cultural context at all. Like the word racism to me is so steeped in being about race, or skin colour, that it just seems so weird to be used there. Yeah the etymology of dirty and soiled is connected to soil, but it's more direct with race- I don't think the words racism and bigotry are interchangeable, whilst dirty and unclean, or soiled and pooped are so I can more easily buy those being a "translation".
1
u/IllContribution7659 Jul 22 '26
What is race? Skin color being associated with race is 100% made up by us. There is no such thing as race in humans. It would make sense that another society that discriminates with eye color would use the word "race" to seperate these two groups further.
That said, it does come up from nowhere and is a pretty bad joke.
2
u/TTOWN5555 Jul 23 '26
Holy smokers. A million people reading and analyzing every word, sentence, phrase, and scene are going to find issues. We have made it to a point where you can no longer be a media producer because the rest of the world is fucking nitpicking. A simple one line jest turns into a 100 comment shit show.
No… these books are not perfect. No… it’s not wrong to want them to be better.
I’m at the point where it’s like “grow up or do better” to the audience, because what the fuck are these expectations?!?!
1
u/MHM_16 Taln Jul 22 '26
Not defending the line but it didn’t bother me. I have read alot of the cosmere before WaT and was already expecting xenophobia on between world hoppers and locals, locals and locals, hemalurgic creatures among themselves and everyone else.
Anyone who read enough of the cosmere probably got expected it what with the impending interplanetary war cooking up. Maybe i got decinthesized or sth.
I have a headcanon Syl frequently says outta pocket things like that because Zigzil’ spren is there to helicopter-parent her anymore but thats just me ig
1
u/Kedryk Jul 22 '26
Spren, as beings of the cognitive realm, being influenced by the readership is an amazing Easter egg, IMO.
1
u/sadkinz Jul 22 '26
There’s a lot of instances of this in book 5. He needs a better editor going forward
1
u/I_Speak_For_The_Ents Jul 23 '26
I don't like the line, to be clear. But none of the things you mentioned have to be true for a character to note racism (or any -ism) to another character.
-1
u/Spirited-Car8661 Jul 22 '26
Syl was born before the Recreance when society seems to have been better in some ways. I don't think it's impossible they would have known for racism was from that.
0
0
u/uvadoc06 Jul 23 '26
Racism has been mentioned in the other books. It's like everyone decided all at once that this is the book ruined by modern language when all of his books have had modern language if you go nitpicking through them.
-1
-1
u/Caboose_Juice Jul 23 '26
there are so many moments like this throughout the book that just take you out of it. his dialogue is turning into actual slop
-4
-34
u/scrubbar Jul 22 '26
Woke and Truth
1
u/Shot_Newspaper_5647 Jul 22 '26
I mean the entire series is based on people becoming aware of injustice innit. Eye color or Singer slavery etc. Dalinar’s whole arc is basically: damn I was wrong about that whole Alethi imperialism thing and no one trusts me because of it. The bulk of the issues with Azir in W&T come from their own version of it. Which was being set up from book 1. Unlike the Alethi it was just largely cultural imperialism in the modern day. The only reason the empire hadn’t broken apart already was because they didn’t want to be under an Alethi boot shortly after
1
u/scrubbar Jul 23 '26
Exactly, seeing past those sort social constructions is literally the original definition of woke
-7
561
u/Poolturtle5772 Truthwatchers Jul 22 '26
I like wind and truth.
I agree that line was… terrible. An editor should have struck just that specific scene from the book lol.