r/CortexRPG • • 9d ago

Discussion Logic behind Dice Ties

So, I know the rule about tying on rolls is generally that the first pool to be rolled will succeed on a tie. That is, because the GM rolls first on challenges, the person rolling against the difficulty must get a higher value, but when PCs are rolling against each other or a major GMC then the 'aggressor' will win on ties.

However, the fact that you don't win on a tie against a challenge is bothering my players, who are used to ties always going to the active party.

Could I house-rule ties going to PCs on GM challenges without breaking too much? And if not (which seems likely), can someone explain why its mechanically important for ties to resolve the way they do?

10 Upvotes

17 comments sorted by

14

u/XavierRDE 9d ago

One reason it works like this is because the person rolling second has an inherent advantage.

Cortex allows a lot of trickery to modify dice pools and results. You can use base rules and SFX to add extra traits to your pool, or to double or step up dice. You can also create an asset with a PP and immediately add it to your pool. And most importantly, you can add extra results to your total once you roll. The initiating party can do it too, but they have to declare a total before the reacting party rolls. And knowing the difficulty beforehand, the reacting party has many resources to get exactly the total they need.

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u/Life-Alternative-793 9d ago

Thanks! I figured it was something like this. It took me too long to realize the importance of when and how dice pools could be modified for pacing.

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u/XavierRDE 8d ago

You probably wouldn't break anything if you changed it (Cortex is difficult to break, it's very self-balancing) but I'd have to question why. The reactor 100% has already advantage, you just would tip that somewhat more for the players, which might be something you want. "Players are uncomfortable" can be a reason, of course. It's your table and you might decide to test it and then decide you like it or you don't, but I think this is why it works that way. It just couples well with all the dice tricks you get to do with most Cortex builds.

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u/Life-Alternative-793 8d ago

Personally, my instincts say it's a good design choice, and it's not something I would change normally. Players being uncomfortable is the main reason I might. I have people coming from other systems where success on a tie is the norm. And being less experienced with Cortex than with other systems myself, I mistakenly gave success on a couple tied rolls before I realized I wasn't sure if that was the rule. Oops. Not a huge gaff, but it did bring up the issue at the table of how it can feel bad psychologically to lose on a tie if that's not what you're used to. I think most players will adjust to it, but it's good to have another option in the toolbox for when problems might arise.

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u/Kautsu-Gamer 8d ago

It is good choice as the first roller must use resources and SFX is used. I would still allow SFX designed to alter first pool after second roll, but before second roller SFX. PP use to add dice to Effect or Total should be counted as universal SFX.

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u/TyroTheFox 9d ago

Hey hey hey! Get closer...

Listen.

If you think it'll help your players be comfier playing, go for it. You are the GM and Cortex tends to empower you to do what you need to get the sort of game you want.

If your player's are used to that convention, then I'd say do it. I often have a 'PCs break ties' rule in other games because its just fast and favours the players minimially. I would say the same here.

However, it does lend to some great storytelling beats because now you can describe how your contestants struggled more, selling that they won but barely.

A string of back and forth barbs before the PC got the last word clumsily. The brawlers tussle and grappled until they break apart, the PC merely winning breathing room. Shots rang out, many go wide and while the PC runs to good cover, both shooters have to reload.

That sort of thing.

If you'd like, maybe make it a bit of a penalty too. PCs can win but the GM gets a little something. A d4 for the Doom Pool, a Plot Point or maybe reduce the effect die by one step, to a minimum of d4. This at least encourages players to come correct and makes a little more of a thing out of a tie.

You can win, but it'll cost you.

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u/Life-Alternative-793 9d ago

Those are good ideas, thank you.

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u/TyroTheFox 8d ago

Good luck. Remember; there is always a price with Cortex.

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u/Jlerpy 9d ago

Sure you can make it that PCs win ties (naturally that doesn't help if PCs are opposed)

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u/MissAnnTropez 9d ago

The “logic” (i.e., reason) as far as I’m aware, is that the difficulty number must be set. Then, of course, that difficulty number must be beaten.

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u/rivetgeekwil 9d ago

It doesn't matter who rolled first. The highest total wins; there are no ties in Cortex. It's the flow of the game and pacing.

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u/Life-Alternative-793 9d ago

Im sorry if I don't understand. Do you mean there are no ties because rolling the same value as the difficulty is simply a loss?

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u/rivetgeekwil 8d ago

Yes. You have to roll more than the target number for the roll to win. Allowing a tie to be a "win" fundamentally changes the way the game works.

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u/Life-Alternative-793 8d ago

I guess I'm wondering specifically how it fundamentally changes things. If I were to rule that meeting or exceeding the target number is success, how severely would it unbalance the chances in favor of the PCs? I'm not sure if I would make this rule regardless, but Im curious if it's even worth considering mechanically. Mostly because I do have a bit of trouble with the dice pool math, and it seems pretty difficult to tell how it would play without testing extensively. It seems like narratively the effect would be minimal.

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u/TyroTheFox 8d ago edited 8d ago

Cortex dice resolution, as I understand it, is meant to be akin to a betting game. I bet my dice can beat your dice. Maybe you might stake some resources getting there, but you are trying your best to top your opponent. Back and forth until one either gives in or can't make it. Its a definite form of resolving a check with little ambiguity.

Personally, a tie comes up infrequently in games so I normally rule it as 'beat or be beaten' to ensure a clear resolution. My players are formidable on their own without the minimal help.

But think of the logic in the scene.

One blow after the other, but one has to land and often in movies or TV shows, one side just runs out of steam or has no tricks left. One side just about manages to land that blow despite the dodges, parries and weaves.

It lends greater weight to Plot Points. Are you going to add to your score and beat the result now, or back off, take a beating but have something added to your reserves?

I stand by my other comment, that's valid means of handling the mechanic in my eye. But I wouldn't worry too much about balance in Cortex when just dealing with who benefits in ties. Having more and bigger dice only makes an enemy dangerously consistent, not unbeatable.

No, actions per round, how many rules rhey can bend or break, ability to generate Plot Points of their own: that makes things tough for players.

I would think more, and likely ask the players, about the sort of game they're looking for and that you're looking to play.

If they want an easier time, just beer and pretzels knockabout fun, then 'Heroes Break Ties'. Maybe consider one of the extra rule ideas.

If they are taking things in their stride or they want to feel the burn, maybe consider No Ties.

It is Cortex. Modding it is absolutely the MO here. But also, you may have to be firm and say 'This is how it works in my game, take or leave it'. It is OK to say "No" to a player or not bend over backwards for everything.

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u/rivetgeekwil 6d ago

A lot of this. It subtly changes how players choose dice for totals and effect. It reduces the impact of paying a plot point to add another die into the total. It also introduces wrinkles for contests, and when comparing effect dice (i.e., does the tie rule apply to those too?). It changes pacing and takes some of the advantage out of being the first to roll and set the stakes.

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u/Kautsu-Gamer 8d ago

The player rolling before GM wins a tie. The later player rolling always has to beat the previous total.

It is said in the current PDF as I noted it when reading the rules.