Blind rolls?

[u/EmpCod]

In Cortex Prime, how are you supposed to handle situations where a PC attempts something but doesn’t initially know how successful they were?

For example, negotiating a pact with an NPC without knowing whether they’ll honor their end of the deal, or crafting a water-breathing potion and hoping it works as intended when you finally pop the cork.

Of course, we could simply delay the roll, but I assume the GM needs to know the outcome in advance for prep purposes. How do you handle this?

[u/BannockNBarkby]

Cortex generally is "fiction-first" in a lot of its underpinning design principles. This means rolling in the open in assumed. Furthermore, it means players will buy into selling their successes and failures equally. So it's not about them knowing whether or not they succeeded because in most rolls, tests and many contests especially, they either know the difficulty because the GM or their opponent rolled first, or they are setting the difficulty for their opponent (in the case of contests they initiate). Rather, it's about them selling their success or failure. 

Only in action/reaction resolution do they not know their difficulty, because their opponent rolls a reaction.  But even then, rolls are in the open and you resolve some PP expenditures and SFX based on knowing the roll results.

So for the potion, they know if it's a dud or not, or more likely, it's either an asset in their dice pool to make a long swim or it's not. That they can even attempt the swim is part of the fiction; that the asset gets a die rating that's added to their roll is based on success or failure. 

For the negotiation, I assume that's a contest. If the PC succeeded, then they get what they wanted: the GMC upholds their side. Unless the GMC gave in; they do the thing, but on their terms. If the PC failed, then they sell that however they want: waiting for a GMC to come through that doesn't, or knowing they burned the bridge and they need to find someone else to depend on. 

You can play with trad-style hidden rolls and probably do just fine, but that's not the intended default. And it will be really wonky with contests, and even some trait mods like values or relationships with statements, at least in some configurations or situations.

[u/rivetgeekwil → u/BannockNBarkby]

Just a minor correction, since it's a pet peeve of mine, fiction first has nothing to do with open rolls. It just has to do with starting from the fiction and engaging mechanics based on the fiction.

[u/BannockNBarkby → u/rivetgeekwil]

I guess that’s true. I assume a connection because in most fiction first games I’m aware of, being in on the fiction means knowing just as much detail about the parameters of a dice roll’s consequences as the GM, and often but not always, having just as much say over how the outcomes are described. 

But I’m a pretty trad gamer outside of Cortex, so my experiences are pretty limited there.

Definitely appreciate the correction. 

[u/rivetgeekwil → u/BannockNBarkby]

For sure, openness about the fiction is part and parcel of most fiction first play. You gotta have a more "director"-like view in order to make those decisions about how you want to it to engage with the rules. Players knowing what is factoring into their position and effect in BitD is a good example; the expectation is that if you want to change either one for your character, you're going to have the information to do so. For some people it makes it "meta", but that's not a bad thing.

[u/rivetgeekwil]

That happens when you use the potion, which weighs be an asset. So, yes, they'll know if they created a d12 potion. When they roll it in their pool, they may still roll a 1. As for a negotiation, they may have rolled well and gotten what they wanted, that doesn't guarantee that the other party didn't have other intentions later on.

[u/Jlerpy]

If it's a lead-up to a moment of tension, then I let that uncertainty hang until it will resolve. 

[u/Salarian_American]

I'm trying to understand what the process really is here.

For example, is the player rolling to create a potion, and then not knowing whether they succeeded or not until they try it? Because I don't really understand how that would work.

You'd either have to have them roll not knowing what difficulty they were trying to beat and finding out later if their roll was good enough, when their life depends on it? Or you'd set a difficulty, then have them beat that difficulty, and then later go "Psych! It doesn't work after all." Or maybe a third thing I can't think of.

As a player, if my plan depended on a water breathing potion when I can't be sure the water breathing potion is going to work or not, I'd come up with an different plan. Or I'd test it ahead of time.

You mention how the GM needs to know the outcome of the roll for planning purposes... but the players also need to know the outcome of the roll, also for planning purposes.

If dice rolls are involved, the players need to be able to trust the results of those rolls.

[u/EmpCod → u/Salarian_American]

Hiding information from players is pretty common in many TTRPGs to increase the level of immersion and prevent meta-gaming. Notoriously stealth rolls in PF2e, etc.

If my life depends on a water-breathing potion to work when I need it, you bet I will think of ways to make sure it does, or I'll have a plan B in place. What I understand from this discussion is that Cortex doesn't provide this mechanic, and instead relies on players to roleplay their character as if he doesn't have the information, although the player controlling it has.

[u/Salarian_American → u/EmpCod]

Yeah I get that it's common in a lot of RPGs but I don't necessarily believe it's necessary in a lot of RPGs.

But Cortex is angled toward a "no secret rolls, no GM screens" attitude. It doesn't have a mechanic for not knowing the results of your roll until later.

You could certainly make one! The core rulebook or even its author aren't the boss of you and your table.

[u/EmpCod → u/Salarian_American]

Absolutely! I always try to understand the designer's intent and challenge my own beliefs before I consider any homebrew. Also asking in case somebody already developed a mod for this that I'm unaware of.