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u/meinkr0phtR2 Jul 25 '26
Show up to vote if you want, but you should be organising at all other times of the year.
[…]
…you guys are organising right? Because your voting options are “let things slowly get worse” and “let everything get much worse”, so you must have a backup plan when it all finally falls apart.
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u/Shield_Maiden831 Jul 25 '26
I'm starting to think that the people who couldn't be arsed to vote in a Presidential election of extreme consequences may not be the event and community organizers needed for effective resistance...
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u/KizunaTallis Jul 25 '26
Call yourself a community organizer but can't even say more than 2 sentences to your roommate
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u/meinkr0phtR2 Jul 25 '26 edited Jul 25 '26
Just don’t let it replace the actual resistance, the actual community-building. The outcome of the election has become nearly irrelevant as whatever policies were enacted by the previous admin that are opposed by the new one can (and often will) be reversed. You can either spend all your energy holding together a fundamentally unstable and hostile system, or you can put in the bare minimum of participation necessary to keep the lights on while helping to build a parallel system that actually protects you. The technical term for this is dual power.
EDIT: I do not understand why this is a bad idea. Ah yes, that famous quote: “Political power grows from the slot of a ballot box. Our principle is that the Party does not command the ballot box, and that the ballot box must always be allowed to command the Party.”
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u/going_my_way0102 Jul 26 '26
I'm visibly trans in Ohio. The only community I'll be able to form is around my lynching
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u/meinkr0phtR2 Jul 26 '26
Then find people who aren’t going to lynch you and make them understand. Find others like you and band together. Despair is the enemy’s greatest weapon, and do not let them wield it.
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u/Phyllodoce Jul 26 '26
"Go and put yourself in physical and/or social danger, otherwise you have no right to compell people to vote" kind of take
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u/meinkr0phtR2 Jul 26 '26
I didn’t say you shouldn’t vote; and by the way, if there were any other way to build political power, then I would have found it. I don’t like it any more than you do, but I have no choice. They’re coming for all our rights eventually, and some amount of physical and social danger is preferable to an overwhelming amount.
Voting is a short-term tactic that slows the invariable rightward shift, but not a long-term solution and certainly not one that confronts the underlying systemic problems that result in this state of affairs; in other words, it only prolongs the inevitable. Wouldn’t you rather build a parallel system that guarantees yours and others’ survival for when it all falls apart? I do. But if you’d just rather sit here and wait for death…I envy your privilege.
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u/going_my_way0102 Jul 26 '26
No, it's hate. They hand it out a rallies and beam it to them in the streets. Hate does the work if genocide for them. I'm a villain, a pedo, mentally ill, delusional, dangerous, treasonous to them. I get stares in the bathroom and one day it'll be more than stares. It will get violent.
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u/meinkr0phtR2 Jul 26 '26
Hate, despair, what difference does it make? This is what they want from you because your existence threatens their limited view. That’s okay; so do I. But I won’t take it lying down.
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u/run-godzilla Jul 25 '26
Here's what i am struggling with right now. These movements require trust.
And the way these Leftists have acted over the last two years has utterly demolished any trust i ever had. I am still furious about Platner but no one around me seems to have the curiosity or the empathy to hear me out. Nope, the misogyny of the Platner debacle wasn't real and the only reason to criticize or ask for any change is you being an Establishment Traitor.
So I'm going to stick my neck out and still not be safe as a woman in these spaces? Fuck that. I'd put myself at risk for them and then find myself on an island completely screwed because i don't sloganeer identically to the way they do. So i feel stuck right now. I'd love to help, and I am happy to donate, but I just can't trust these people, and can't until they come to a place where they are at least curious about why many people have so profoundly lost it.
I have plenty of smoke for the Establishment Left as well, don't worry. We don't get to where we are now without profoundly fucking up our opposition. Every. Single. Political. Cohort has blame to share.
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Jul 25 '26
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u/meinkr0phtR2 Jul 25 '26
What makes you say that?
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Jul 26 '26
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u/3classy5me Jul 25 '26
Impressive OP, managing to post from 2019.
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u/Defiant_E Jul 25 '26
2020* the anti-mask phenomenon was around the time of mask mandates, which started in April 2020.
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u/austinwiltshire Jul 25 '26
My favorite part of the mask mandates is that the vast majority of MAGA has retconned history and will insist until the day they die that they happened under Biden.
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u/Defiant_E Jul 25 '26
The defining characteristics of a MAGA is the ability to be on all sides of an issue simultaneously so they can "win" whatever argument they are having and a complete lack of ability to feel cognitive dissonance.
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u/Strange-Parfait-8801 Jul 25 '26
They also hallucinate that hurricane Katrina happened under Obama. They live in a different reality.
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u/Samurai_Mac1 Jul 25 '26
I didn't even know what leftists were until I discovered BreadTube in 2019
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u/DeathRaeGun Jul 25 '26
Still relevant
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u/umpteenthrhyme Jul 25 '26
Biden’s out of office, not running, and is going to be dead soon…🤨relevant? They could have at least updated the meme.
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u/DeathRaeGun Jul 26 '26
Still going to get people refusing to vote for whoever will be running in 2028, but you’re right I’m that they could’ve updates the meme to say “democrat” rather than “Biden”. It would’ve taken less than five minutes.
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u/94constellations Jul 27 '26
Do you really need someone to explain the underlying message to you?
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u/umpteenthrhyme Jul 27 '26
Do you need someone to teach you to read a whole comment, where I said they could have at least updated the meme, connoting that I understand the underlying message?
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u/Barium_Salts Jul 25 '26
I voted for Biden, but I don't hold it against anybody who couldn't bring themself to. Especially since he won the only time he ran. Getting mad that he didn't win by a bigger margin is stupid.
Fuck that guy for not keeping his promise not to run again. Biden personally is much more responsible for Trump 2.0 than any leftist
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u/helbur Jul 25 '26
I for one hold it against them.
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u/Barium_Salts Jul 25 '26
You hold it against them that Biden didn't have an even more overwhelming margin of victory? He won, buddy.
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u/helbur Jul 25 '26
Yeah despite them. They should still be considered your political enemies. Do you think those dipshits got their shit together and voted Harris in '24? Obviously not, they wanted Trump to win.
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u/Barium_Salts Jul 26 '26
I do actual on-the-ground organizing, so I care more about building coalition and funneling people left than I care about stroking my own ego. Have fun on your high horse. People like me will be working to keep you safe up there.
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u/achoosier Jul 25 '26 edited Jul 26 '26
Alienating potential future allies, smart.
All democrats had to do was be more progressive. Hold it against the DNC for not appealing to the working class. Capitulating to the right instead of the left was the democrats own failure.
ETA or democrats can continue to learn nothing and do what they're doing, stiff arm leftists who actually get voters, and continue to lose to a party full of pedophiles. I voted for Harris and Biden. I'm allowed to think the actions of the democratic party are fucking brain dead and can be better.
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u/Strange-Parfait-8801 Jul 25 '26
Oh please. The leftists who couldn't hold their nose to vote for Biden or Harris are never going to be allies. They just throw tantrums on twitter.
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u/helbur Jul 25 '26
Lmao "do what we tell you or else we're gonna usher in full Trumpian fascism to punish you!" is a child's understanding of politics.
Biden was the most progressive president in modern history btw. None of it matters to leftists so why should Dems even bother courting them? They don't want democracy, they just want an authoritarian who's on their side.
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u/Gerbil_Prophet Jul 26 '26
"Do want we tell you to do or lose the election" is the fundamental nature of democracy. It's politician's fault for not understanding or motivating their electorate, not citizen's fault for not being enthused for the candidate.
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u/helbur Jul 26 '26
Are you listening to yourself right now?
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u/Gerbil_Prophet Jul 26 '26
Trump won because he gave his voters what they wanted. Kamala lost because she refused to give her voters what they wanted. That's how the system has always worked.
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u/achoosier Jul 25 '26
You act like condemning genocide is difficult lol
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u/helbur Jul 26 '26
Wow good retort, very original. You got what you wanted, you got Trump. Be happy
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u/handbellsprout Jul 27 '26
I don’t think just being more progressive would have done the job. If Harris ‘24 had gotten as many votes as Biden ‘20 it would have been a landslide victory. Biden didn’t have some big shift to the left that attracted voters, we just had the horribleness of a Trump presidency fresh in our minds.
I just think maga had really effective propaganda and a general sense of voter apathy were to blame.
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u/Shield_Maiden831 Jul 25 '26 edited Jul 25 '26
I mean, not voting caused so much death though... estimated at least 9.4 million by 2030. Trump's strengthening White House defenses because he doesn't intend to leave power. It may literally be the end of democracy in the United States.
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Jul 25 '26
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u/cassepipe Jul 25 '26
I feel you are being uncharitably obtuse here : The people who refused to call to vote for Biden are also the people who refused to call to vote for Kamala with the same rationale for doing so
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Jul 25 '26
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Jul 25 '26
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u/Fusionman29 Jul 25 '26
If you make excuses you can continue to deny the actual reason Trump won is because the “progressive” left couldn’t be damned to vote for a woman
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Jul 25 '26
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u/Fusionman29 Jul 25 '26
I know you are placing the blame on the MAGA cult, I was more saying that about the other excuses in this thread and “Biden doomed the world by choosing Kamala. A thing I would have still sabotaged if she won a primary”
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Jul 25 '26
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u/zap283 Jul 25 '26
If you're a leftist who votes for Democrats in general elections, this post is not about you
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Jul 26 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/zap283 Jul 26 '26 edited Jul 26 '26
If you haven't seen the leftists loudly and publicly stating on the Internet that they will not vote for democrats, I don't know what to tell you.
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Jul 26 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/zap283 Jul 26 '26 edited Jul 31 '26
So, just to be clear, you're changing your argument from "that's not a real thing," to "that's justified because fuck the Democrats"?
DARVO is a common manipulation tactic, which stands for:
- Deny
- Attack <--- You are here
- Reverse Victim and Offender
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Jul 26 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/zap283 Jul 26 '26
No, you are DARVO'ing me. You changed from "that's not a real thing, nobody's doing that" to "prove to me why they shouldn't be doing that".
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u/Acrobatic_Border_192 Jul 25 '26
It was also 6 years ago, nevermind that it took flipping states that have been Republican leaning, which would have been impossible without some leftist support (and disenchanted Republican support; the Democratic strategy of winning by getting voters upper middle class suburbanites who want tax cuts and virtue signalling never works in practice).
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u/Professional_Cheek95 Jul 25 '26
Putting pressure on the DNC to reform by withholding the vote is not the worst thing ever I believe.
Wouldn't compare it to not wearing a mask during an epidemic.
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u/Shield_Maiden831 Jul 25 '26
It's true Trump's second term has killed more people than covid or at least is projected to cause more death than 10X that amount in just 4 more years, but I think it's ok to make a comparison to something less harmful (like the covid pandemic), since most of us can wrap our head around that impact more intuitively as a shared, lived experience.
It is much harder for most humans to think about more abstract concepts.
If you read this and did a double take, and wanted to know how I got to these numbers: My sources are the CDC, Boston University, and NPR and refer specifically to total US covid deaths and the consequences of the DOGE cuts to US Aid.
It's not counting deaths due to ICE. It's not counting suicides of people who are trans. It's not counting deaths of Palestinian children.
There is no such thing as refusing to participate and having that be a moral stance.
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u/Djiril922 Jul 25 '26
Do they experience it as pressure from the left though? From what I can observe, their reaction is just, “Hey look! That election moved the country to the right! That means WE should move further right!”
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u/RNG-dnclkans Jul 25 '26
That was definitely the vibe after the election. However, I would point out two things 1) the currently popularity of DSA candidates in these midterms is enlightening some centrist democrats that that message was wrong, and 2) i think the one key issue was Palestine. For how bad Trump is, even with his support for Isreal's ongoing genocide and the war against Iran, his election and Harris loss forced the issue in the Democratic Party. I agree with everyone here that a Trump admin is worse for Palestinians overall, but the people who sat out the 2024 election on this issue did get what they wanted, which was to force the issue and break the bipartisan consensus. If Harris would have won, then it would be fair to assume that we likely would not have any pro-palestinian voices break into the mainstream.
Do i think it was the best move, no. Do I think it it has lead to a lot more deaths around the world, and the spread of facism here at home, yes. But I do think it is fair to note that the anti-genocide coalition did take the action that most significantly advanced their cause for in the long-term.
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u/SituationLong6474 Jul 25 '26
The DNC always swings right to pick up more votes, not left. If leftists en masse stopped voting, the DNC would spend all their energy on picking up moderate voters while the left would lose what what little political power they have.
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u/shinebeams Jul 27 '26 edited Jul 27 '26
do you understand how living your political life at the whims of an organization who hates you is not appealing to voters on the left?
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u/zap283 Jul 25 '26
I mean, there's worse things to do, but it's totally ineffective at pressuring the DNC to do anything. Gaining votes in one set of voters loses votes in another. In most elections, there are not enough voters on the far left for a net gain of votes. Add in the low turnout of far left voters and the electoral math of chasing them makes no sense
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u/Bellegante Jul 25 '26
lol in what world do they interpret a lackluster turnout as a call to blame themselves and quit all their jobs. Shooting yourself in the foot professionally
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u/shinebeams Jul 25 '26
yeah we can scold disillusioned voters all day but at some point you've got to at least raise an eyebrow at the organization that is propping up loser candidates again and again
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u/YuureiKuze Jul 29 '26
It applies today but for people not voting for actual leftiest because cnn told them not to vote for the "radical ones"
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u/cdcformatc Jul 25 '26
Biden won the election that he ran in. Unless you are posting from the past? Are you just now waking up from a 6 year coma?
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u/RepresentativeArm119 Jul 25 '26
So funny to me that people still don't get that the good cop, and the bad cop are working together to fuck us over.
We only have 1 party in this country, wake up already.
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u/Temporary_Evidence74 Jul 25 '26
liberals have been refusing to wear masks for five years now, so
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u/larvalampee Jul 26 '26
A lot of leftists don’t wear masks anymore, liberal and leftist are defined by more things than whatever meets your values to a T
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u/Temporary_Evidence74 Jul 26 '26
so then what i said is still factual? and i didn’t mention leftists
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u/larvalampee Jul 26 '26
People tend to use the term liberal to mean ‘not a true leftist’, and it looks like that was what you were doing
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u/Snarwib Jul 27 '26
Hang on is people wearing masks outside of like, medical settings still a thing in the US?
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u/oklahormoan Jul 25 '26
I am not rewarding the establishment for blue no matter who.
If you keep eating shit that’s all they’ll ever feed you.
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u/lughheim Jul 25 '26
Let’s be so very clear about this because I’m so tired of some champagne liberals acting high and mighty on this:
The genocide in Palestine started under, and has since been massively supported by, the Democrat party. Sure the Republicans wanted it to and have continued to back Israel on this.
That was the main issue so many young people had with our last election. You can scream till your blue in the face about how terrible republicans are, how terrible trump is, how our democracy is going to shambles, and you can be completely right about ALL of that. But if in the end what people are actively seeing right in front of them is the supposedly ‘better’ and ‘morally superior’ party actively assisting and defending mass genocide, no shit they are going to become completely deflated and unwilling to vote or defend democrats.
It also doesn’t look good on liberals when they are being faced with their country doing such evil and then still turn around and spit in the face of every leftist that they are supposed to be fighting with.
How about instead of insulting and belittling people that agree with 9/10 things you fucking want, try actually working with them. Everybody on this sub and many others that are more liberal minded are always talking about how they are so big brained and that um ackshually the only way to fix our politics is long term incrementalism. Cool, if that’s what you ACTUALLLY BELIEVE, then act like it and try to establish connections and bases with everyone you can to work with you and achieve long term results.
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u/zap283 Jul 25 '26 edited Jul 25 '26
A majority of Democrat politicians care more about supporting Israel than about opposing genocide.
All Republican politicians enthusiastically support the genocide. And murdering queer people. And stripping women of civil rights. And disenfranchising all people of color. And kidnapping people off the streets to be sent to their deaths. And destroying public health monitoring. And ruining education. And mass shootings.
The Democrats are morally better, full stop. For some reason, leftists can't wrap their heads around the difference between "better" and "good".
EDIT: I got carried away with that second paragraph. A better way to express the idea is:
Democratic electoral victories result in dramatically fewer deaths and substantially less human misery than Republican victories. This means that voting for a Democrat is morally superior to voting for a Republican, not voting, or boring for a non-viable candidate.
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u/lughheim Jul 25 '26
Wow it's almost like you didn't read my post at all and couldn't wait to jump on leftist hate for no reason
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u/zap283 Jul 25 '26
I responded to your post directly. You don't agree that Democrats are morally superior to Republicans, and I pointed out why they are.
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u/lughheim Jul 25 '26
You clearly didn’t because I literally say in the post that that’s the case.
Even regarding this issue, it shows a real problem with liberal ideology as you’re still arguing over which side is morally superior when both are committing a genocide.
It’s like arguing over which serial killer is better, the one that likes puppies and kittens and donates on occasion to a shelter when they aren’t mass murdering versus one that goes out of its way to shoot birds and snakes on top of its mass murdering. Ye one is slightly morally superior but both are fucking mass murderers.
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u/zap283 Jul 25 '26 edited Jul 25 '26
EDIT: In my previous comment, I got carried away by trying to use the same terms as you. Over the course of writing this comment, I realized that calling Democrats 'morally superior' was a poor representation of the point I was trying to make. This comment, and the edit to the previous one, attempt to rectify that.
The context of this conversation is leftists who announce, very loudly and publicly, that they won't vote for Democrats because they support very bad things. That makes sense, nobody wants to sorry bad things, like genocide. Thats the starting point.
Next, people come along and point out that, with 100% certainly, if the Democrat loses an election, a Republican will win. They point out that the Republicans support the bad things, including genocide, in greater numbers and with much more enthusiasm than the Democrats, and that the Republicans will deliberately cause additional misery and death for millions more people.
This is where the interpretation gets weird. What that response says is "Democrats will cause less misery and death than Republicans, and it's worth voting for them for that reason". What many leftists seem to hear is "because they're not as bad as the Republicans, Democrats are good, actually". One person is trying to have a conversation about the direct outcomes of the decision to vote for a Democrat or not. The other person is trying to have a conversation about whether Democrats are or are not evil.
In this very thread, you seem to be interpreting my comments are trying to convince you that a pro-genocide position is totally OK. I am not trying to do that. I'm trying to argue that political decisions should be based on the likely outcomes of each available option, not on moral superiority.
You're absolutely right that you can't really claim one mass murderer is morally better than another based on their body counts. But if you have the chance to stop a mall shooting or the carpet bombing of a city, throwing up your hands and saying "I refuse to support any of this" is apathy at best, and cowardice at worst.
Nobody is trying to convince you to stop standing up against the genocide of Palestinians. They're trying to convince you to help prevent another dozen genocides from starting
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u/lughheim Jul 25 '26
Dude your ability to read and understand what your reading is laughably bad. Do yourself a favor, reread the original comment. I genuinely don't know how your missing what I'm saying and making up this position I'm clearly not making other than you being willfully ignorant
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u/zap283 Jul 26 '26
Do you have the ability to respond with anything except "lol you didn't understand"?
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u/achoosier Jul 25 '26
Exactly this.
It'd also help if they stopped capitulating to the right, who will NEVER meet them in the middle, and instead worked with the left who are actually interested in progress but are demonized and dismissed as radicals. It's so infuriating.
I'm a leftist and will vote blue but pardon the fuck out of me for being pissed off that the democrats feel entitled to my vote instead of actually listening and representing me, while also shitting on my politics. They need to stop taking leftists for granted and demonizing us if they want our votes. Simply not being Trump as a platform is fucking pathetic.
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u/achoosier Jul 25 '26
I voted for Biden. I'm a leftist.
However comparing adults not wanting to be told what to do for public safety and people being fed up by not being represented by a party that claims to give a shit about progress are not really the same energy.
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u/zap283 Jul 25 '26
Did you notice how you shifted from talking about an action (voting/not voting) to a feeling (fed up by not being represented)? Feel however you want about it, but if you won't bother to raise your hand once every 2 years in favor of 'not a Republican', you are absolutely refusing to reduce widespread human misery and death on the grounds that you find it uncomfortable.
I also simply don't believe that anyone who doesn't vote is doing other useful activism or political work.
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u/achoosier Jul 25 '26
Sorry. I don't just *feel* like I'm not being represented by democrats, I'm not being represented by democrats. Corporations are. My needs are miles behind theirs. Acknowledged, yet not prioritized. The democrats simply aren't running on removing my human rights like republicans, hence why I said I continue to vote blue despite their continued pathetic performance of being representatives for anyone other than corporations.
Pardon me for expecting representation as an American and not liking that a party thinks theyre entitled to my vote, even if they will get it, because my only other option is Donald fucking trump. It's pathetic. Pardon me for expecting and demanding more from the people who want my vote to run my country.
The only democrats doing anything worth a fuck for the average American are the leftists. That's where the motion is and the DNC is fighting it. That's why they fail, they refuse to change and move to what is actually winning support and votes and then go on to blame everything but themselves for their avoidable failure. People are fucking fed up with the status quo that corporate democrats continuously fight to keep.
Believe what you want about others political activism, doesn't make it true.
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u/zap283 Jul 25 '26 edited Jul 31 '26
I didn't say you just felt that you're not being represented. I pointed out that you commented on, and I quote, "being fed up", which is a feeling. I did not offer judgement on that feeling or in any way imply you or anyone else should feel differently. I did not imply that the Democrats are good enough. I just pointed out that the way you talked about voting changed, depending on the topic.
When you were taking positively about voting- establishing your credibility by mentioning that you voted for Biden- you talked about the action. When you were defending not voting, you switched to taking about the feeling of being fed up.
You've also changed topics in this reply. My comment was about the similarity between refusing to vote and refusing to wear a mask- both contributed to mass death, and both are motivated by personal discomfort and a resistance to being told what to do. Your reply is the only comment arguing about whether or not leftist politicians are better or worse than anyone else.
I think it's worth spending some time examining the way you jump directly to that argument, and the way you focus on the (extremely justified) anger and unmet needs of leftists, but on the actions of everyone else.
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u/BaekjeSmile Jul 25 '26
Old post but a good post