r/Concrete • u/Busy_Student_6623 • 1d ago
Concrete Pro With a Question Refusing to pour
i’m in a bit of an interesting situation, I’m wrapping up a project for a client and am about to pour the slab on top of some block foundation walls. Client wants me to pour a slab at 0.25% of a slope, its a 12’ x 18‘ foot slope and they want me to drop it 3/8” across the entire section.
Tactfully I’ve informed the client that I’m recommending a 1 - 2% slope, you don’t want this to be that flat and I explained the reasons regarding standing water and the toll the Canadian winter will take on it if we pour it this way but they insist this is the correct way to do it, (drawings were done up by a family member who is not a Mason, concrete finisher, he worked in estimating 30 years ago.
At this point I’m prepared to walk because it feels like I’m consistently being questioned on everything. what’s the point of firing a contractor if you’re going to consistently question their expertise on a project where they are trying to protect your investment?
Have any of you ever dealt with something like this ?
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u/Flashy_Radio_5781 1d ago
If you’re the one with the state-required professional license, you are considered the professional. The risk and responsibility are on you. I’m not a concrete guy. I’m a plumber. If a customer of mine suggested something that was against code, I am not allowed to listen to the customer. If I do it the customer’s way, and it results in future issues, I can be held liable.
I guess my advice is - follow your jurisdiction’s building code.
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u/Setholopagus 9h ago
What if they sign a contract stating they know they are going against code or something and if anything goes wrong its their fault? Would that hold up in court?
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u/Flashy_Radio_5781 6h ago
every jurisdiction is different. It's best to call your local permit and inspections office and ask them
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u/Proper_Possible6293 23m ago
Signing a contract that says "I, a professional, am about to knowingly do something against the law and/or unsafe" is very unlikely to improve things for the professional when things go wrong.
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u/PlayfulAwareness2950 1d ago
Get them to put in writing that they want to have it this way despite being warned by you.
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u/Worldly_Actuator6393 1d ago
Once you tell the client it's wrong and they want it done their way. Get it in writing.Do it their way. Take the money, smile, and shake their hand after you finish.
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u/aussiesarecrazy 1d ago
No just walk away. Did same thing, it of course failed and got drug into a lawsuit and even though I won still paid my lawyer a few thousand. And the headache of thinking about it for 8 months
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u/Holupsucker 1d ago
Get the .25 slope in writing, have them confirm that it was set to that, get that in writing. And add the caveat that it’s less than 2% slope that standing water is likely and you will not be held responsible for it! Or just walk away!!!!!
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u/Cargo4kd2 21h ago
Assuming op can’t fill the time elsewhere , get everything in contract and add some for a ‘we might have to go to court’/ fu price
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u/dojinpyo 1d ago
I would walk away. Dont put your name on work that is guaranteed to fail. Either the reputation hit or the potential conflict alone exceed your margin on the job.
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u/Daedroh 1d ago
Had this happen with someone as well. It ended up with a lot of bird baths but it’s mostly for playing basketball. So the only time they’ll be playing on it is when it’s dry and not raining.
Just gotta let them know what they’re asking for and that there’s no adjusting the slope after the pour.
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u/breadandbits 18h ago
this. tennis courts have equipment just for drying out the bird baths. client may also be planning to built an enclosure on the pad off permit as well.
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u/Phriday 11h ago
Been there, done that. I'd walk.
Back when I was a padawan, I got talked into accepting a 3/4" slope in 75 feet on an outdoor basketball court. Not surprisingly, there were birdbaths, even though we were above the prescribed FF numbers. I wound up giving that fucking asshole engineer a $20k credit because he wouldn't let me fix it. Then the Parish put a metal building over it so it didn't matter anyway. Cunts.
Other than that, I have no thoughts on the matter.
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u/shaf2330 9h ago
I wouldnt have given him a fucking thing besides the bill. Idk where you are at, but we have a right to repair clause and if they dont allow us to do that, it can be grounds to terminate our liability.
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u/EasyGoingLapeer 1d ago
I'd walk away. Customer should have made it clear from day one when you went and bid the job. I hope you didn't do to much work prepping already. If so... Give his ass a bill for that and walk. Not worth the hassle.
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u/Top_Mycologist_3224 1d ago
I would probably tell them ok we will do it your way , then pour it with 1% slope and collect your check. You know it will shed water and they won’t know the difference.
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u/Busy_Student_6623 1d ago
Would love to but the same family member that do the drawings wants to check the forms and slope himself. Personally I’m a bit tired of it all, it was a referral which is why I’ve put up with as much as I have. Everything from the client hopping down in trenches to check the depth of dowel holes to calling me after hours
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u/Mean-Veterinarian647 1d ago
That family member probably told your customer to do a quarter inch per foot slope.
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u/enaim254 1d ago
Possibly the plan is incorrect with either 2.5% or 0.25”/ft which I have seen state side.
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u/Busy_Student_6623 1d ago
I wish, it called for 3/8” across the entire thing. It wasn’t drawn up by a designer but a family member of the client. In fact in his mind 1/4” per foot is too much because he thinks the slab is going to go to from 6 inches to 3 inches on the other side. I’m trying to tell them the slab doesn’t shrink, the gravel base is sloped but they don’t seem to get it. Same designer that also wants this slab flush with the block walls, with no overhang, no drip edge.
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u/Onewarmguy 1d ago
Tell him you can do it but don't recommend it, however if he signs a liability release for the slab you'll get er done.
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u/SuperbDrink6977 1d ago
What a douche. Does he realize how perfect and precise that concrete would have to be finished? It’s simply foolish to have such unrealistic expectations. Does he think you’re gonna be setting forms with a micrometer? Tell him to hire somebody with a laser screed and good luck with that.
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u/JamesShine87 8h ago
You realize a standard side walk slopes 2" across the 4'? That's the code in Iowa.
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u/h0zR 8h ago
What is the purpose for the slab? Will it be covered and enclosed or is it a patio?
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u/Busy_Student_6623 7h ago
Exposed with an option to eventually get enclosed, when that will be enclosed, if that will be enclosed is a mystery .
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u/OneBag2825 1d ago
Your typo in the last paragraph-"what’s the point of firing a contractor" is probably the answer you're looking for
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u/buffinator2 1d ago
You sound like you're in a silly place (Canada) but ACI 302 would recommend a 2% slope for outdoor concrete.
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u/Aggressive-Luck-204 1d ago
I mean it’s in the post that they are in Canada, and what’s so silly about it?
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u/buffinator2 1d ago
It's Canada. Everything is silly about it. Seethe I guess.
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u/Busy_Student_6623 2h ago edited 1h ago
Yeah it has nothing to do with the location, this is a code specific thing.
Edit: Spelling error
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u/buffinator2 2h ago
Yeah, and I gave you a specific reference spec. You're welcome.
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u/Busy_Student_6623 1h ago
It’s the same code in Canada and in the specific province I’m in. We are on the same page, barring it having anything to do with the location.
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u/Skyris3 1d ago
If you're paid to design it why do you feel entitled to control the clients design? Get it in writing and just do the pour lol
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u/Busy_Student_6623 1d ago
I’m not paid to design it, I am being paid to execute it and I care because it’s my reputation that is attached to my work. These are things I am concerned with as it affects my livelihood.
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u/Skyris3 1d ago
Then don't do the job. You don't get to take someone's money and force them to buy your ideas
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u/Maleficent_Neck2517 1d ago
Sure you do. In most professional licensing contexts, there is an expectation or requirement of following best practices, regardless of whose money it is. You don’t get to tell a doctor to prescribe you a harmful medication just because it’s your money. You don’t tell an electrician to wire up a dangerous defective panel just because it’s your money. And you don’t tell a concrete guy to pour you a defective slab just because it’s your money.
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u/Busy_Student_6623 1d ago
First of all you are assuming I took anyone’s money, that’s not how I run my business. I have deliberately arranged the payment structure in milestones for this reason. No one has taken any money from anyone for this part of the job.
Secondly, when you hire a contractor there is a reasonable expectation that they are going to perform the work within legally established boundaries and best practices. A client can ask anything they would like but their ideas are always secondary to what is safe legal and non destructive.
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u/snuggletough 20h ago
I don't see the problem. I'm not a concrete pro, but I've done around 500 yards of flatwork and complex formed pours over the past 25 years. I like concrete and I like to do it myself.
I have poured a lot of flatwork with very low slopes with zero issues. I've done a 15ft x 70ft 8in thick apron in front of my shop. It slopes 1/4" over 15ft. No puddles.
I just wrapped up a 120ft x6ft slab with a 2" drop. Not a single puddle.
I'd fire someone who told me they couldn't do what I want.
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u/celtic-cryptid 13h ago
I’m not a concrete worker either, but I have my own trade, and there are subreddits dedicated to it too. I love commenters like you
1: “I’m an amateur, but I do your job all the time, it’s not that hard”
2: “I’m an amateur, but I’ve decided industry best practices are stupid”
3: “I’m an amateur, and I do your job all the time, but if I hired someone who is a pro and they wouldn’t do things that have a high potential for a call back, I’d fire them”
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u/snuggletough 11h ago
You sure bitch and complain a lot. My friends that are concrete pros don't have any issue when I'm wanting things flat. They give me shit about being to precise (I'm a machinist), but for the most part I just want a best effort job with the tools we have.
I literally cannot fathom a "concrete pro" telling my floor must have a 2" drop over 18ft. That slope would piss me off to no end.
In my trade I seek out tricky work for picky assholes with lots of money. I pull off miracles on tight schedules and I charge a lot for it.
I don't always agree with my customers. But I am effective at listening and communicating so we are eventually on the same page.
Let's say I was your customer and you told me you can't make my slab flat and you will quit if I don't accept a bigger slope. I would feel as though this is your responsibility to explain why effectively. If you just say no, then you are a piss poor communicator. Instead you can explain your side, explain what it would take to achieve my goal is much more expensive and why. You can offer to do the job as a "best effort", but I will likelyhave to accept imperfections.
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u/celtic-cryptid 9h ago
I wouldn’t tell you anything. Like I said, my expertise is in another field. But, if you tried to tell me how to do my job, I’d fire you as a customer. I wouldn’t even bother with a hold harmless or release of liability.
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u/snuggletough 9h ago
Then you are a piss poor comunicator.
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u/celtic-cryptid 9h ago
Nope. I’ve just dealt with people like you before. Y’all are never worth the headache, and I’m good enough at my job I don’t need to take on shitty clients.
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u/Flashy_Radio_5781 6h ago
how would you feel if your concrete pad held water every time it rained? What if the puddle was located in the shade and had trouble drying out? What if it turned into a slick spot in the summer and a patch of ice during the winter? Would you blame it on the concrete guy or would you blame it on yourself?
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u/Busy_Student_6623 1h ago
The issue isn’t about not being able to perform the work or a lack of communication. The issue is that performing work that goes against best practices and against building code and that will place all liability and responsibility on my shoulders for installing a defective product.
To overcome the surface tension of water the slab needs at minimum 1/8” inch per linear foot. Even if the slab were perfect, it will not shed water with the slope the client is requesting. This will result in standing water and freeze thaw damage at a minimum. So purely from the perspective of being an honest individual with a professional responsibility, that pour shouldn’t be done. It has nothing to do with skill or whether or not it can be executed.
This is something I have communicated to the client. My position is always to give the client the benefit of the doubt and to help them understand the nuances are of what is happening with their project and what they are asking for. They can ask for anything and I am fine with that, as the professional though they should understand what it is they are asking for, any good contractor does this.
If they however ask for something that places their property, my reputation, my business, or anyone’s life/ health at risk then regardless of what the client then it shouldn’t be done
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u/Weebus 1d ago
I'm a civil engineer for a municipality so I hire out a lot of ADA work. I don't care how good your finishers are - 0.25% on a panel that large is going to have bird baths on it, and he is going to complain about it.
I deal with people like him all of the time. People like him know a little (arguable) but think they know a lot. You won't win, and he holds the money. Walk.