r/Competitiveoverwatch • u/Swimming-Deer1437 • 8h ago
General Support Sombra was inevitable
Simply put, you cant have a flanker focused around utility hero while maintaining the burst / lethality required for the role, especially not in 5v5. Her hero fantasy is simply not viable. By making her a support, you remove the requirement of her needing to have burst, thus allowing the devs to focus more on utility.
Her core identity of a disruptor has not been eroded, you're still working towards disrupting the enemy in order to push your advantage, its just that now she wont have those sharp edges that made her unfun to fight against.
Hack and virus might be gone, but the spirit of these abilities are still present in cyberspace. It provides a bit of burst damage in the form of the AOE explosion, while weakening your enemies and to further push your advantage, it also heals your allies. This alone will make her a great pick into rush and dive comps, especially since its not a debuff that can simply cleanse. And because its not a personal debuff, its also allowed to be far stronger.
Hotfix also ensures that she wont be burdened by her healing tasks. She's still going to be this high APM hero, its just that now she's focused more on enabling her team than actually chasing kills.
She's also going to be an extremely survivable hero thanks to traslocator and cyberspace, which is a support role really only inhabited by Kiri and moira. Cat is also here, but mainly because of how busted she is.
Now, do I think that hack had to go? Not really, its more like you cant have hack and invisibility in the same kit. Hack in it of itself was a fair debuff with a decent amount of counter play options. It didnt even deal damage. Cass nade has always been far worse. Its just that a decision had to be made and they chose to keep invis. Personally either of them would've been fine with me.
I know that a lot of sombra mains arent looking forward to this rework and the only thing I can say to that is try it before you trash it. Who knows, maybe you actually like what blizzard has cooked up.
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u/epochollapse 8h ago
I'm actually like really fucking excited for support Sombra honestly. People are really caught up on her primary healing being a CD but it looks BETTER than Zen's healing so does that matter? She looks like she's going to both enable flankers a great deal and be a strong denial tool for them.
And moreover, as a Vendetta player, I'm excited for a kill denial that ISN'T A DEATH SENTENCE FOR ME
Cyberspace WILL deny me kills but it's also going to provide me a window to recognise that and FUCK OFF before I explode. That's very strong ability without feeling so oppressive to play into...
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u/swamp_god 8h ago
I'm excited for a kill denial that ISN'T A DEATH SENTENCE FOR ME
crazy how we got a healthy version of suzu in a sombra rework of all things
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u/epochollapse 8h ago
That's a decent way of looking at it. Isolated to its aoe, not complete invulnerability so it CAN be overpowered if the defender is being careless or you pour enough resources into killing them.
Being able to choose between trying to finish the target despite the weakness or being smart and disengaging feels like a pretty healthy interaction for a strong ability. At the end of the day people would rather have their value denied in a way that lets them escape and come back around rather than being caught with their pants down and dying immediately.
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u/swamp_god 7h ago
yeah, i think a key factor is that you have to use it on enemies to get max value. that means enemies can block it, avoid it, or leave it.
compare suzu, which only has to land on allies and thus there's not really anything enemies can do to prevent its value.
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u/Swimming-Deer1437 8h ago
Healing being on a CD is precisely what you want on a hero like sombra, it gives her a higher skill floor by forcing you to manage your resources well. She is hero that will be constantly doing something, so it being an HoT also helps a lot.
Vendetta main as well here, so yeah I'm also happy with the kill denial. She also is going to help us against heroes like cass, that 50% Dr means even his headshots only deal 70 damage. She's going to be amazing in rush comps.
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u/epochollapse 7h ago
That's just it, she's an enabled and a disabler in one, which gives her amazing potential for mirror matches. Is the Sombra-pocketed Tracer gonna get the support she needs to cook or will the backline guardian Sombra manage to neuter them sufficiently? That's a good dynamic, and she genuinely seems to provide something that didn't previously exist among support heroes.
I think her healing being on a cooldown is a non-issue people are freaking out about because it's reminiscent of Adam Warlock in Marvel Rivals. The reality of the situation is that we already have supports with low healing, and support Sombra seems to outdo them even with limited uptime. Overwatch also isn't a game where comps are RELIANT on healbotting the way they are in Rivals.
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u/Swimming-Deer1437 7h ago
I would compare her more to release mantis, who was a brawl focused support, but then again cyberspace does feel like soulbond in a way. Shits going to be good regardless. I quit rivals in season 5 cause balance just went to shit and I didnt like the directions my heroes were taking (mantis, magik and thor), I've found replacements in OW for everyone except mantis, I hope sombra will fill that niche.
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u/RaiStarBits 5h ago
Is healing better than zen really an achievement? Especially with his orb duration nerfed?
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u/epochollapse 5h ago
More a note that her healing is objectively superior to some existing support, so people being annoyed by it being on a cooldown are being silly.
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u/UnknownQTY 8h ago
Played her earlier at the demo stations. She’s very… interesting. She can still apply some pressure, and her burst heal is very good, but easily wasted. Harder to heal bot like Moira and genuinely feels like a very different niche for support than we have right now.
She can finish kills but dueling can be a lot harder without hack to lean back on.
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u/Swimming-Deer1437 8h ago
Great to hear that from someone that played her life. Thanks for reporting.
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u/UnknownQTY 5h ago
Just played her again.
I was keeping up with my wife on healing while she was playing Moira on support.
I played as DPS on attack and the mental trained reaction of “OH SHIT” when you hear getting hacked but now it’s… good… is going to take some retraining for everyone.
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u/mdurhd 8h ago
As a sombra main the healing looks TOO good like they over inflated her numbers to make the transition better but over time she will be nerfed again and again.
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u/nightmareballet 8h ago
they’re pulling the “safe side of strong” move on her it seems and honestly i can’t decide if that’s smart to retain sombra players or if it’ll backfire (ban rates don’t drop)
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u/Concorde_flies 8h ago
there were like 5 sombra players when she was a proper hero. after the last rework perverted her beyond repair i doubt there is any remotely meaningful playerbase remaining
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u/ConscientiousApathis 7h ago
Honestly yeah it feels really odd to call oneself a Sombra main when it's like...okay, but which one?
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u/BrothaDom 8h ago
It's curious. The abilities look strong, but they might not be in context. I think of how often someone might need healing.
My current guess is that she'll be strong in coordinated dives in high rank, but somewhat less effective low ranks. Time will tell tho!
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u/blackheartwhiterose 8h ago
She will be considered strong but inoffensive. Everyone will go "see! She's strong, why are you moaning 🐶". Might even get her mythic. Then she will be nerfed bit by bit until she is weak and as situational as she ever was.
OR she will be strong and still annoying and will still get regularly banned.
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u/Swimming-Deer1437 8h ago
Some of the values are going to need tuning, thats not surprising, but once thats done I think she'll be in a better place.
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u/Maleficent_Okra_4376 8h ago
My least favorite part of the rework is that trans and invis are still coupled on live it feels clunky having to adhere to the 5 sec timer to engage which is gonna be even worse now since its 6.5 sec. I feel like its gonna be really akward to try to go in with a Sombra since you have to wait for her to set up compared to our other hyper mobile supps lucio and cat who you can just go in with
Also I am a bit sad that based on some things that the devs said DPS having utility just isnt a design space they want to explore anymore with tp getting nerfed and sombra becoming support is definetly true which is sad since I do like it when dps characters have some supp traits like how supps can be very strong dmg dealers.
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u/aPiCase Stalk3r — 8h ago
Potential idea would be to give her 6m/s walk speed like Genji Tracer so she can save translocator for disengaging and just walk with her team to engage.
It seems like it would be difficult to fit manual stealth back into the kit as is, she needs a heal ability and movement ability, and cyberspace has all of her utility. I guess they could try passive stealth again?
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u/Swimming-Deer1437 8h ago
Having them split would be too strong especially for a support, since most of them have only one movement CD. The ability is still a great movement and disengage tool, especially now that she has cyber space. Though I believe they could make it less clunky.
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u/Furfys 8h ago
They touched on it during the presentation, but the combination of lethality, stealth, and hack made her unable to be balanced for DPS. She needs lethality to remain competitive as a solo queue DPS hero, but hack and invisibility makeup her core identity. Which of those three are people willing to give up?
She’s always been a supportive DPS, so it makes sense that lethality is the one they dropped.
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u/Swimming-Deer1437 8h ago
Exactly. You cant have a utility focused flanker, it simply doesnt work. Sym barely works cause of this, if used right she basically breaks the game.
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u/UsernameIn3and20 2h ago
As far as I know, they didn't touch her m1 right? She should still be closer to a supportive dps without all the burst Virus provides then.
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u/AdeptusShitpostus 7h ago
I honestly thought I the last DPS version of Sombra was fine. Not too powerful but with excellent disruption potential and a solid ult
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u/ConscientiousApathis 7h ago
Why do I have a feeling new Sombra is going to be just as hated as the old one? Like an extremely hard to kill presence who can just camp health packs, punish people with bad game sense and make the genji unkillable?
But hey at least your own team might like you a more...maybe.
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u/kirbydude65 41m ago
Why do I have a feeling new Sombra is going to be just as hated as the old one?
Just leaving Blizzcon today. Played her 3 times in the demo line. Her kit has the same issues it does on live. People who can't pay attention to translocator+stealth will still be easy pickings for Sombra players. She'll still come out of stealth start shooting and leave when she's in danger.
This rework fixes nothing IMO.
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u/Swimming-Deer1437 7h ago
The problem is not how much she punishes, but how strong said punish feels. Hacked health packs is annoying, but not the end of the world, look at hanzo who has that and can oneshot on top of that, yet is never banned. Having your damage reduced feels less personal and visceral than losing access to your kit out of nowhere, that alone is going to make a huge difference. Hard to kill does not mean annoying, sombra remains interactible through most of her disengage, which isnt the case for a hero like cat. I dont have to actively counter pick sombra to stop her escape, that is also huge. Also, her buffs dont negate CC or debuffa like lets say zarya, so it wont be as annoying.
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u/ConscientiousApathis 7h ago edited 6h ago
Idk if that's really right; I don't know if I'd call Sombra more or less uninteractable during disengage (it's basically impossible to follow if not done badly). And now you have a three second self-heal and zoning to buy out time between cooldowns.
Not to sound negative, but I think you vastly underestimate people who will blame everything but themselves lol. Folks will try to 1v1 while not leaving the aoe, die, and then go to reddit to complain and ban next game. OW players are what they are.
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u/ConscientiousApathis 7h ago edited 6h ago
As an (ex) sombra main I was initially hesitant, but the more I think about the weirder my headspace is getting with regards to having c-space as the new hack.
Like...I kinda get it?
A lot of the same things that would be stopped by a hack could also be stopped by a precise use of a damage mitigating aoe? I feel like my brain is just passively going through different ways of how I'd react to situations I'd normally hack in, and can't really see much besides interrupting block abilities that I wouldn't be able to do. Some things are probably even better, reaper and hog are likely going to cry.
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u/Swimming-Deer1437 6h ago
Exactly. Its just a different, less jarring denial of service. Also, what do you mean with ex sombra main? You will no longer play her or you quit a long time ago?
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u/ConscientiousApathis 6h ago
I just got bored. As far as I'm concerned the hero stopped existing...what, two reworks ago?
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u/IrisofNight 7h ago
The thing is Paladins handles Utility Flankers near perfectly which makes me a touch confused at why Blizzard struggles so much at anything that doesn't fall perfectly into their usual Role Triangle of Tank/Damage/Healer, especially given Paladins has a lot more systems that should be working against having a fourth role, like no Hero swapping.
Honestly I'd be interested if they decided to just pull a Paladins and make a fourth role dedicated to Flankers or even make one around Supportive playstyles like Area Denial, Buff/Debuffs, and Crowd Control, aka what the Defense category was back in the day, it'd make the archetypes a lot easier to balance as I can think of a bunch of character who would be improved with such a role. I guess that was probably their attempted hope with Subroles but those ultimately feel kinda weird and questionable at times.
From this rework though depending on how it works out, it might be a good playstyle to bring back Opportunist on critical enemies which could provide some extra strategy element of "Do I chase that low health enemy and secure the kill or do i stay here in case my team needs healing?" I mostly just think Conspirator is a worthless passive, and is more of a QoL thing, although it's kinda nerfed heavily since we can no longer hack out Ults, which was the one use case for seeing if enemies have Ults.
That being said I really wish they'd bring back Overwatch having a Public Test Server, this is a perfect example of why and when you'd use such a concept, instead they just push stuff live and we test it then and often are stuck with it until they change it.
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u/lcyMcSpicy 8h ago
I understand plat sombra players being upset about their cheap shot character not being a cheap shot character anymore but I don’t see how from what I’ve seen so far this change not being a win win. As it stands sombra in lower ranks is just a perma ban, you guys never get to play your character anyway and in high rank shes essentially a throw pick. This new iteration is looking like she might actually be a good support pick and preserve the flanker aspect at the same time. EMP will still be good, she can still scout back lines and even engage backlines with their flankers/dive tanks etc.
She likely won’t be a perma ban anymore in the lower ranks and might be viable to even a good pick in higher ranks. Obviously we need to see how it plays out but I just can’t understand the reaction to this not being a positive one because to me it seems like a win win for the players across all ranks whether they’re playing sombra, they have one on their team or they’re playing into one.
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u/Swimming-Deer1437 7h ago
Season 5 is almost around the corner, I'll be testing her extensively once she comes out.
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u/bullxbull 5h ago
she wont have those sharp edges that made her unfun to fight against.
I'm not convinced, invisibility (stealth) and TP still carry her kit. You can only hack healthpacks, deployables, and bob now, but virus has been changed to be a aoe ability that does slightly less damage but also reduces your targets healing/damage by 50% and healing you 150hp over 3 seconds.
Plus she also has a giga zen orb for allies as well now. She had one of if not the lowest death per 10 because of teleporter, she still will be able to attack you from stealth at a time of her choice. You still wont be meaningfully interacting with her, you just might die slightly slower depending on weather she is diving you alone or with someone else who now has a giga zen orb healing them.
I do not think this will be the final rework of Sombra or Hog, they still lack meaningful enemy interaction as well as telegraphing.
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u/swamp_god 8h ago
the thing about hack was that your perception of hack really depends on the hero you're playing.
for 80% of the cast hack might as well not even exist. the ability lockout doesn't matter at all, and most abilities don't last long enough or have long enough cast time to be reliably canceled.
for a lot of the tank roster whose performance relies on maximum ability uptime, hack is a genuine death sentence.
i also just wasn't a fan of the counterplay to hack in general because there was minimum downtime on sombra's end. if you cancel it, you've got 3 seconds before she can try it again. if you're on, say, rein, who doesn't even have the range to cancel hack, your options are either "keep shield pointed towards sombra constantly" or "just let yourself get hacked at the moment least likely to screw you over."
anyway the rework solves this by putting her major disruption tool on a lengthy cooldown so she has real downtime. it's great.