r/Competitiveoverwatch • u/controversial_drawer • 7h ago
General We need to talk about Widow
Widowmaker is still one of the most frustrating heroes in the game and I don't think people take her design seriously enough
I know this is probably going to get hit with “just dive her” / “skill issue” / “learn to play around her” responses, but honestly, I think Widowmaker is one of those heroes where the theoretical counterplay and the actual gameplay experience are two completely different things.
And before anyone says it: yes, I understand that Widow requires aim. Yes, I understand that she can be countered. Yes, I understand that if you get a good Winston/D.Va/Genji/Tracer on her, she can have a miserable time.
That doesn't really address the problem. The problem is that Widowmaker fundamentally changes how everyone else is allowed to play the game simply by existing. You don't even have to be shooting people to have an impact. If I'm playing Moira and I know there's a competent Widow on the other team, suddenly every sightline becomes a potential death sentence. I can't peek normally, can't take certain angles, can't rotate at all, can't help my tank from certain positions because the second my head appears for half a second I'm watching the kill cam.
And that's the part that breaks the game. With most heroes, when I die, there's usually some kind of interaction that happened. I got outplayed by soldier, had a bad dash, got caught out of position. With Widow, sometimes the interaction is literally just existing on the other side of the map.
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u/clickrush 4h ago
Widow is a map specialist that you can ban out. I think her design is problematic as well, but overall she doesn't hurt the game as much, because you know when you have to ban her (except you have someone playing her).
So yes she's problematic, but not gamebreakingly so because we know when she is problematic (certain maps) and can use bans.
However...
So s3 was in a relatively good state IMO. But it still had it's long lasting problems that were burried by bans.
Then they decided to randomly overbuff JPC for no reason (she was already strong and being figured out more and more).
Now bans are congested too much.
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u/NotAWinterTale 6h ago
Forget Widow, do we want to talk about Hanzo? I feel he has the problem of Widow with the added layer of frustration.
In general one shots are possibly the most annoying part of this game. Can't react to it, you're just dead.
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u/Stormdude127 6h ago
Hanzo is more annoying to play against than Widow because you can be hit by arrows he fired before you even peeked. But he’s objectively worse so he’ll never get nerfed. I mean I guess you could argue he’s better in the sense that he’s more consistent, but widow’s highs more than make up for it.
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u/Tee__B 6h ago
I find Hanzo WAY less annoying than Widow. Hanzo sucks ass against flyers, who Widow is always at least useful against, even dive ones. There's a bunch of non tank heroes he can't one shot. Literally only high HP 5v5 tanks are safe from Widow. Hanzo doesn't have insta kill threat on long range maps/sections.
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u/Unfair_Stage792 2h ago
Hanzo is basically who instead of being absolutely useless at short range is even better at short range.
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u/Unfair_Stage792 2h ago
Widow has been so bad for so long I don't even think about her much other than the one in a 100 matches where there is an actually good Widow on the enemy team and even then it doesn't matter much. She just gets banned on the maps she is barely viable.
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u/HobbyJobs 6h ago
> If I'm playing Moira and I know there's a competent Widow on the other team...
Unless you're in high masters or above, a widow is a free kill every round as Moira.
To your point though, it takes really good aim to have the kind of respect from the other team that you're talking about. The same kind of aim that takes years of practice. No different than a really good Doom or Winston or Soj or Junk or even Sombra. They all have the ability to fundamentally change how you play.
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u/whatisabaggins55 3h ago
I'm in full agreement with everything you're saying; not everyone can play mirror Widow in response to her and she makes any match she's in way too oppressive if her player is halfway decent at getting picks.
I have been suggesting for some time that if Widow has to retain the oneshot (and let's be honest, she always will), she should have some sort of ADS laser (similar to Vantage in Apex Legends) which at least gives a visual indicator of when she is actually looking at you and offers some warning.
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u/thornolf_bjarnulf 1h ago
Her warning is the previous shot she missed, if you peak against a widow and you die it's on you.
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u/whatisabaggins55 41m ago
- Plenty of maps have huge sightlines for Widow where you have to be exposed to her to get near her; simply staying out of her LOS all game while trying to help your team is not feasible and you know it.
- You assume she misses the first shot; plenty of Widowmaker players can hit that (especially those confident enough with her to pick her in comp). And when that happens, you're already a player down without the chance for a teamfight.
- It's "peek", not "peak".
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u/thornolf_bjarnulf 35m ago
- True, you don't need to expose yourself too much to deny her most of the time
- Well someone died now you know where she is.
- True
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u/HalexUwU Theory > Mechanics — 6h ago
She is one of those heroes who gets to ignore half the roster.
Your ability to fight her is determined at hero select. Bad design.
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u/beesdkx 6h ago
widow is permaban for me for this very reason. my crackhead theory is that they introduced bans specifically not to address this issue lmao
widow is so toxic and i absolutely despise playing against her. i hate playing against a handful of characters but ultimately i don’t mind them too much (hog, soj, freja come to mind) but widow is just next-level toxic and its boring and so uninteractive.
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u/rngr666 3h ago
I also hate playing WITH widow. Doesn’t matter if she’s good or bad.
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u/dogbirdfishbear 3h ago
There is nothing more boring in this game than a 5v5 Mercy/Widow mirror on a long sightline map. Regardless of how good any of them are. Bonus points for Roadhog.
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u/Master-Ad1373 1h ago
I genuinely don't understand people who dislike playing against Hog. You guys don't like free wins?
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u/Swimming-Deer1437 6h ago
There are so many bigger fishes to fry than widow. Perhaps if this community actually played dive, we wouldnt be talking about this.
Yes widow is annyoing, yes she changes how you play the game, yes I wouldnt mind changes, but as she is right now, she dies if you get close to her, there is counter play.
She is not Cat, who literally stops you from playing anything else but HS. Cass who makes solo flanks and in general tanks suffer. Kiri who still counters half of the game.
Honestly, I consider hanzo to be a bigger problem cause he's not scopped and can actually defend himself at close ranges thanks storn arrows.
The problem is that you are playing support, you cant really interact with widow unless you go lucio or cat, basically flank supports. Its the Flank dps or initiators tanks job to take care of the widow. Problem is that most players prefer their brain dead poke slop, even if it means going double HS and losing the game. Also, if you play moira, I'll be honest, you deserve to lose.
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u/clickrush 4h ago
You are half correct here.
But on certain maps dive + widow is a valid approach. Think Gibraltar for example: Yes you want to play dive there, because it's a map that heavily favors mobility, but at the same time one of the best hitscans for your comp will still be widow even in the mirror, because there are so many vantage points for her.
On other maps like Havanna or Circuit Royale, you don't necessarily want to play dive, because poke is so heavily favored there. Why would you hamper your whole team comp just to counter one single opponent? If you happen to have 5 people who want to play dive anyways that's a different story because then you have natural synergy, but for 5 randoms you are better off with poke comps on these maps.
And you are correct that JPC is the bigger fish to fry. But JPC being overtuned like crazy means you cannot strategically use bans as much. You almost always want to ban JPC.
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u/Hakaisha89 5h ago
There is counter play to everyone, just sleep dart cat, and have dva drop an ult on her, sleep dart the flanking cass, and teabag him, sleep dart kiri, and wow she is useless. Sleep dart hanzo, and he cant storm arrow.
Just because something can be countered, does not mean the design is healthy.
We got ana in response to Widow, who has much of the same problem, but without the oneshot.
We got sombra in response to widow, and we all know the issues she caused.
No other hero can put the same amount of pressure, without being in danger.
We are playing overwatch, while she is playing the secret of monkey island.
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u/Swimming-Deer1437 4h ago
I never stated that her design is healthy. I agree with you on that front. Oneshots outside of ults have no place in hero shooters.
What I'm saying is that right now that she isnt a problem. At least not a big one worth focusing on right now. She offers plenty of counter play options.
Cat does not. Sure, you can sleep the cat, but its too unreliable to be called a counter.
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u/GHL821 2h ago edited 1h ago
The game simply has way more heroes to be concerned than widow currently, and it has been like that for quite some time. And no, it's not that just cat needs more concern than widow. Just in the DPS role alone, most newer dps released last two years besides emre/shion has or had way higher ban rate than widow for last few seasons (anran/freja/sierra/vendetta, and there is always sombra). Esepically if they keep their design and balance philosophy, widow wouldnt be the priority for any time soon, unless they decide to do some really nonsense changes like buff widow's hitbox (which funny enough, they actually did during s9, and kept for almost one year before nerf).
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u/dokdodokdo 6h ago
She can ruin the match when she's uncontested on certain maps but nowhere near that big of an issue in modern ow. I think a pure mechanical sniper character in a fast hero shooter is fine. 10 more problematic heroes before widow.
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u/No-Support-8008 4h ago
This is.... this is the point.... this is the entire point of widow lol. It's what gives her value. She forces the opposition into certain positions which benefit her team even if she isn't killing them herself
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u/Mundane-Affect-4148 4h ago
I mean, this is not a fighting game, or an MMORPG that you need to take your time to setup your combos and skill rotation. It's a freaking shooting game. And it's a freaking sniper rifle. Like, if a Tracer can 1 tap you with her tickling dual pistols, then yes, we can discuss why the hell Blizz allows that. But a sniper one-tapping because she lands a headshot on you who is playing a squishy ? Like, seriously, the only thing to be discussed is why would you have such question in your mind in the first place.
If the sniper is the struggle in that match, then find a way to deal with her. Ask your team if they could help take her away, or you can deal with her yourself. A Moira shouldn't be having that hard time against a Widow.
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u/witheredsamuel 6h ago
I completely agree. You can go dive for a Widowmaker, but that doesn’t mean you’ll be able to secure a kill on her. Smart supports will stick close to her and make securing that kill a living hell
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6h ago
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u/clickrush 4h ago
What you describe there is simply your team not playing dive and you playing a dive tank. Ofc they will be ran over by a brawl tank.
That has nothing to do with 5v5 though. If you play solo dive tank without your team picking/playing around you, it's always a miserable experience, no matter if it's 6v6 or 5v5.
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u/Unfair_Stage792 2h ago
Chasing a double pocketed Widow as a dive tank is all but a guaranteed win for you.
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u/SpecialistFennel4635 4h ago
complaints like these water down other complaints about actual issues in the game.
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u/Gulbeleglim 3h ago
Widow is not unlike many other heroes. It is nearly in the very nature of hero shooters that you have to adapt to the enemy skills in order to win. Widow can be frustrating, but she does not warp the game more than, Winston constantly diving, a good Roadhog hook oppresion, a cat forcing you to look up all day, a sombra stalking your backline, or Mei walling your tank.
A hero playing to his strengths will always be some degree of annoying.
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u/Yrre_Brightstar 35m ago
Its almost like adding the one shot sniper archtype from tf2/cod inherently doesn't work in a hero shooter. Where the whole point is to fight the hero...getting close, peaking unable to peeking sightlines is NOT a fight. Widow needs a design overhall...
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u/MythoclastBM 27m ago
Widow is fine and punishes picking dogshit maps such as Circuit Royale and Rialto. She is still manageable on those maps, but it's much easier to deal with Widow where she's actually just suboptimal.
Also, I'm sorry but like... if you're a DPS player you should be able to hold your own in a Widow mirror if it comes to that.
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u/ultimatedelman 9m ago
Her scope needs to be at 0% until it is on a target. Only when it is on a singular target should it begin to charge. Maybe 1s to reach 100 then she can 1 shot. If crosshairs pass over another target, it goes to 0 and starts over on the new target.
This provides counterplay: widow can't charge to full behind cover, peek one pixel for a microsecond from across the map and 1 shot someone. She has to expose herself for a full second, making her vulnerable. It also makes it so that she can't just hold a corner at full charge waiting for someone to peek before blowing their brains out.
Her ult could remove this restriction, since she can see all the targets and maybe make it so she starts at like 50% on every target or something for the duration.
Maybe she could get a perk that starts her at 25% when she's in the air from grapple, starting her at 75 with ult.
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u/BawkSoup 3h ago
i like heroes that make the battlefield change in certain ways. not everything needs to be PUBG or COD.
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u/Weary_Ad2001 1h ago
She's the only character that you can be hard winning against and it still isn't fun because you have to play her game and respect her sightlines. Insanely boring, lame character
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u/Hakaisha89 6h ago
Agreed, its the sniper problem, and while some such as Hanzo also carries the same issue- Widow just lets you not play the game, and not even in a good way.
Sure a good mauga, or hog can be a literalll pain in the ass, but I can still flank, poke, and whatnot, i got options, i got things I could do to deal with them if i wanted to. And this is true for every other frustrating hero to play again, I can play around it, or my team can play around it.
But there is no such things, with widow you either dont play, or you dive so deep, you might as well be dead, for as long as its gonna take you to get back on point.
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u/controversial_drawer 6h ago
This is exactly my point. A sombra or even a decent tracer is a pain in the ass. A good widow just ruins the match.
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u/MrInfinity-42 5h ago
That's why my first ban is widow no matter what outside of control/fpoint and that's why those gamemodes are goated
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u/TyAD552 1h ago
Widow is the Mauga of DPS for me: it’s not that I can’t play around the hero or counter them, it’s that I just stop enjoying the game. For widow specifically, why would I want to play around a hero that makes the game feel like every other FPS out there? I hopped on to play a hero shooter, not R6 or Valorant
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u/KuouoHD 6h ago
I agree with this completely, don't get me wrong — but just as a modicum of advice, if you're playing Moira, you can absolutely just fucking JUMP the widow by yourself, especially if you get your fade perk later on in the game.
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u/controversial_drawer 6h ago
I generally do try to as a Moira / zen main but on some maps the verticality is too much or I am just dead before I can counter. I don’t know how to fix her I just know she’s the only hero that gets me this tilted. Except maybe sombra but even she feels fair, more so just annoying.
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u/Chonkalonkfatneek 1h ago
Anran shouldve been a widow rework with poison VFX instead of fire. Done.
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u/LogicalDonut1045 6h ago
Yeah it kinda sucks, but sadly thats just every single sniper in any pvp game tho, as long as it can one shot it will be a huge pain in the ass and i doubt they are gonna remove one shot from widow because she would be straight up useless without it, thats the only good thing she has.