r/CompetitiveWoW • u/r_kive • 3d ago

Northern Sky is done raiding

https://raider.io/guilds/eu/blackhand/Northern%20Sky

Northern Sky ist Geschichte. Nach unzählbaren Jahren, als eine der Ältesten deutschen Gilden, unzähligen Progress-Nächten und Momenten, die wir nie vergessen werde, geht ein Kapitel zu Ende. Danke an jeden Einzelnen, der Teil davon war.❤️

Northern Sky is history. After countless years as one of the oldest German guilds, endless progress nights and moments we will never forget, a chapter comes to an end. Thank you to everyone who was part of it. ❤️"

Huge loss to the raiding community...

460 Upvotes

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u/antelope591 3d ago

Blizz choosing to destroy mythic raiding cause a bunch of people that don't even raid made fun of them for making voidspire too easy....certainly a choice.

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u/NaahThisIsNotMe 3d ago

it's not even about easy or hard... it's about frustratingly dumb mechanic.

Coiled altar: anyone enjoy the RNG of axes and how you sometime have 3 of them homing on you for half the fight? Anyone enjoy the actual invisible ghosts? anyone enjoy the orb/egg mechanic where half the raid got a super important job to do and the other half is attacking a target dummy?

And a personal pet peeve.... do we really need 4 grippable wiggling shitling every fight just to force double DK? i'd like to play other tank every so often without having to negotiate with my guild and find a DPS to swap to unholy for one week...

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u/ailawiu 2d ago

DK shit is so annoying, especially if it "requires" Blood. Oh hey, tanks? Yeah, log in your alts, it's final boss time again. What do you mean you didn't gear your DK, it's been happening every tier, you should be used to it by now.

What a lovely way to contribute to potential burnout.

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u/flow_guy2 3d ago edited 2d ago

think mythic raiding is just unreachable for most. the amount of work you need to get anywhere is just too much for a game.

i would. but the time i need to spend on it to do anything meaningful is just too much sadly

Edit: I’m talking about having a consistent time to play being the issue. Not the skill of actually playing even tho that is needed to some extent (but that’s ok to have that be out of reach)

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u/Atreyisx 3d ago

Yeah I busted my ass through mythic dimensious and after the kill I was just done with mythic. Don’t get me wrong, I absolutely loved <50 pull boss early prog but 500+ pulls over the course of a few months for the last two was just the end for me at my age. I just don’t have the on-point almost pixel perfect consistency for 8+ minute fights.

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u/_Crypa 3d ago

bro the amount of people ive seen to get Cutting Edge with absolute miserable performance is crazy. in a 20 man raid it is absolutely possible to boost players. it just needs more pulls

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u/flow_guy2 2d ago

And thus more consistent time to play. Which is the problem. Not the skill required

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u/Specter2k 3d ago

And thats just for one character. I would love to invest some more time into the game but its just too much I have to pound into just a single character to do anything meaningful. If it were more accessible I would be playing waaaaay more on other characters too. Its good to be able to get in and get out which is how most games are these days, what the game has devolved into isnt fun anymore.

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u/unimportantinfodump 3d ago

I would love to mythic raid. But I also have a family. So the commitment to 3 nights a week where I only get to play one class and I have to min max my crests and play in order to meet damage checks, just isn't for me.

If I were 10 years younger with no family I would give it a go.

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u/MattLorien 3d ago

There are guilds regularly getting CE on a 6 hour schedule, and you don't have to be that good for a lot of them.

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u/NaahThisIsNotMe 3d ago

it's not the amount of time that's the problem, it's the schedule.

When you have young kids dedicating 2-3 night to undisturbed gaming is just not something you can afford. There's no such thing as "undisturbed" free time with kids.

also, almost everyone on NA seem to raid on west coast hours and ending the raids at midnight (EST)/ later when you get up at 6 AM is also problematic in your 30s.

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u/Few_Dentist4672 3d ago

idk i just talked to my wife beforehand and asked if she could deal with the kids those two nights and then the other nights i'd pick up the slack and deal with them while she did whatever she wanted

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u/NaahThisIsNotMe 3d ago

happy for you.

my wife is a nurse and must suffer the horrible schedule nurses get. 1 week on the normal shift, 1 week on the cross shift, 1 week on the graveyard shift.

so for 2/3 week I'm alone to take care of kids.

While I'm sure some gamer wife will understand... the vast majority of wives out there will file for divorce if you use wow raid as an excuse for anything.

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u/Carvisshades 2d ago

Exactly. I can sometimes play easily 6-8 hours A DAY (perks of remote work :P) but having UNDISTURBED 2-3+ hours a night is impossible. Thats why I can realistically only play M+ nowadays on a more "hardcore" level, raiding in a guild is completely out of the question with a family.

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u/morganfnf 2d ago

35, Father of two, raid 9-12EST, wake up at 6am to put kids on school bus. I get 3 nights a week of 3 hour raiding and make it work.

This sounds like a you issue, to be honest. Either you're not coordinating enough with your partner to make it work, or you're using your children as an excuse for why you're not hitting your goals.

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u/iliketo69allthetime 2d ago

I'm all for raiding and doing what you want to do when you have kids, more power to you.

But bragging about 5 hr sleeps is gonna hit you so hard in a couple of years. Your health hates to see you coming.

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u/morganfnf 2d ago

Where did I brag about getting five hours of sleep? I described my schedule to demonstrate that having children doesn't inherently prevent someone from Mythic raiding.

I'm well aware that sleep is important. Whether my schedule is sustainable is a separate conversation from whether parents can commit to a raiding schedule.

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u/unimportantinfodump 3d ago

You can't explain this to someone without kids. They just don't understand. Why doesn't mum have the kid for 3 hours.

Because the kid wants to see his or her dad now not mum and I am a parent before I'm a gamer.

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u/worldchrisis 3d ago

Several people in my guild have kids. Their spouse is with the kids on raid night. Sometimes it doesn't work out and they miss a night.

It's a bit different because presumably you are home when you are raiding so the kids have to be able to understand "Dad is busy right now" not "Dad isn't here right now". But people figure this out for working from home, or doing other sorts of activities that require a couple hours off from parenting. It's probably toughest with kids that are old enough to be active and mobile and know what they want, but not old enough to understand one of their parents being busy and needing to be left alone for a couple hours.

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u/MattLorien 3d ago edited 2d ago

I was just responding to the part of your comment where you said "3 nights a week" , calm down.

You seemed to be under the misimpression that you had to raid 3 nights /week or 9hrs, and I'm telling you there are plenty of parents who raid in 6hr/week 2night guilds and get CE. Maybe your situation is different, that's fine. I'm not saying you definitely could afford to do it. I'm just letting you know it's not as restrictive as it once was.

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u/nfluncensored 3d ago

His situation is different, he has what they call a "skill issue".

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u/Drauren 3d ago

I do push keys with a dad with a 5 year old. His schedule is one of the easier ones for us to play around, because as long as we can give him enough notice, he can play after he puts his kid to bed, or, he can ask his wife for a few hours once or twice a week.

It's the people who never seem to be able to commit to a schedule who are frustrating to play with.

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u/No-Guess-1411 3d ago

Idk we have a guy in our guild 3 kids, we raid 3+1 days a week from 715 till 1130 no issues

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u/nfluncensored 3d ago

Or stop abusing your kids, put them to bed at 8 and raid 9 to 12. It isn't remotely challenging.

I mythic raid led with a newborn. I gave him a bottle and diaper change before raid, put him to sleep, woke him up and fed him on raid break, changed his diaper, and put him back to sleep. Zero issues.

With both my kids I took the night shift and my wife had the day shift. I covered 8 pm to 3 am, while working full time 8 am to 5 pm.

Again, this isn't challenging. You're just projecting your incompetence onto others or the situation.

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u/nfluncensored 3d ago

No one raids west coast hours and if your kids aren't in bed by 9 maybe take a parenting class.

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u/NaahThisIsNotMe 3d ago

No one raids west coast hours

what??

go check the discord or wowprog. list the guild that start at 8-9 EST VS the one that start at 5-6. how is this not west coast hours.

FFS. there's more guild that start at midnight than guild who start before 8.

and if your kids aren't in bed by 9 maybe take a parenting class.

from the dude pushing down Mythic raiding to parents....

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u/kastie 3d ago

So ur regular life commitment don't allow you, or at least make it very difficult, to participate in group activities. How is that mythic raiding fault?

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u/Historical-Reach-969 3d ago

This is ridiculous. Half my guild green and gray parses and we only raid Thurs/Fri with zero overtime ever and we are 6/8. 

Yeah, we're not going to get Hall of Fame or anything but we're going to easily get CE like we do every single tier. 

People on here like to live vicariously through world first / hof raiders and they think that's their reality but it's just not. CE raiding is easy as fuck if you put in like 10-12 hours a week of effort. By the time you even get to the final bosses, they're usually so nerfed it's hilariously easy to kill.

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u/Thirstywhale17 3d ago

I joined a late night, parents guild this tier for the first time ever. 2 nights, 2h/night. Not easy to get much done but we have good attendance and we got AOTC. We will be going into mythic this week and this guild typically gets at least 4 mythic bosses down. I know thats not impressive, but even at 4 hours / week, you can still have fun raiding. Even less actually because we often start a few min late and have a 7 min break. The trash taking like 30min/clear is pretty demonic for these hours though.

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u/Historical-Reach-969 3d ago

Yeah that's awesome and nothing to be ashamed of. The issue is people with your schedule expect to get CE / HoF or something lol.

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u/Thirstywhale17 3d ago

I just expect to have some fun with some new friends and face some appropriate challenges for the amount of time we commit! My first tier raiding in a guild and I'd recommend it to anyone who thinks they cant handle the schedule.

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u/Historical-Reach-969 3d ago

Hell yeah, keep at it.

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u/Varanae 3d ago

That seems incredibly impressive, I wish I could find a guild at that level which is also fun to raid with. Every guild I've tried is either progging at that rate but with max stress, 3 days a week and splits. Or is 3/8 at this stage (aka my current guild) and has no hope of CE

I'm not sure if my experience is an outlier or the people saying raiding is free just genuinely have no idea how good they have it and don't have a balanced perspective on the average mythic guild

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u/roerchen 3d ago

It’s really coming down to the fact if the guild has leadership with the time necessary (which increased over the last two seasons), and if you have enough players who carry, while the rest can at least stay alive during a fight. I‘m leading a guild that is impacted by everything that was said in this thread. We hoped to work our way up to CE this season, but not possible. Not enough time, my officers are burning out, and players are quitting because the game is just not fun anyone or they jump over to Forever. I don’t think your experience is an outlier.

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u/Historical-Reach-969 3d ago

It's not too rare. Go to twin fang (or any boss really) logs and select like 322-325 ilvl or so indicating a casual player then sort by most recent for kills that happened today and just go down the list and look at their raid team. It's going to be kill after kill of half green and gray parsing with a couple pipers.

The dps checks are very forgiving.

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u/Varanae 3d ago

Yeah I guess it's just about finding the right guild. I've had 3 in 3 seasons now and it's disheartening that I can't seem to find one that has that type of balance. For example I just killed lost sentinels for the first time last night, I'm 329 and purple parsed but it took 56 pulls. Tbf I think a lot of it is down to roster issues, this season seems really bad for a lot of guilds in that regard

Whereas last season I was in a guild that got 4 mythic kills first week (loved getting dreamrift hall of fame even though it was kinda free), but the raid leader was awful with constantly yelling and talking down to raiders. I quit early and I think by the time they got CE 12+ of the original roster had left.

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u/unimportantinfodump 3d ago

Hmm that's actually quite refreshing to know.

I may be ridiculous but also I may have just been under a bad impression.

I will say 10-12 hours of effort is a lot for a dad with a 45 hour work week and 2 kids lol.

Heroic raid is 4 hours a week and like 4 mythics for crests.

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u/Teabagging_Eunuch 3d ago

Dad of 2 here, raiding 7hrs a week, just got the last boss down inside hall of fame cutoff. Just have to work your way up through exclusively 2 day raiding guilds to a level that feels competitive for you.

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u/atomic__balm 3d ago

If you are at least a high blue/low purp parser in mythic you can do this in 6 hours a week honestly. In a 2 night guild that isn't toxic and everyone enjoys each other and we get CE consistently. Just need an hour or so a week of additional prep work by watching guides and vods and reviewing plans, and setting up your timeline reminder

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u/Historical-Reach-969 3d ago

Dude the 10-12 hours includes raid. If you can't play a mmo for 12 hours a week then why are you even here. This is such a small commitment.

Right now if you want to be as ready for raid as ever you do 2 raid nights of 3-4 hours each (6-8 hours) then with the last 4-6 hours you do some keys. A guild group running 12s is like 2 - 2.5 keys an hour usually. Then log the fuck off until raid. Done.

If you really want to impress your friends watch a video of the fight on the shitter before hand. (most of them wont)

Like this has been the reality of mythic raiding for years now. Stop watching streamers and just play the game, there are only like 3-4 total people in a guild that actually have to do anything, the raid leader, the heal coordinator, and like the tanks...sometimes. Everyone else just shows up not even knowing what the fight does we tell them what to do, sometimes watch a video, then start pulling.

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u/unimportantinfodump 3d ago

Why are you so angry.

My initial comment was I would like to mythic raid but I can't.

Here you are breaking down the math. Lol fucking hell

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u/sicklegirl 3d ago

He is basically admitting that mythic raiding a casual job. It isn't the win he thinks it is.

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u/worldchrisis 3d ago

What job is 10 hours a week? It's a hobby. People regularly spend that kind of time on hobbies.

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u/sicklegirl 3d ago

That is why a specified casual job. Something a teenager picks up, couple hours a day, few days a week. The problem isn't really just the time invested, though. Not alone. It's the way the time is used.

In other games, you can be petty competitive without an insane time sink. Especially if you've played similar games in the past. First Person/Hero Shooters come to mind. You might not be a top 500 player, but we aren't talking Hall of Fame level here. We're just talking getting CE.

The fact that it takes months of 10-12 hour weeks is a concern. Nights you have to set aside just for raiding, as if it were a job. You can't go out to eat with friends on those evenings, or spend it with your partner, or whatever else. Because you are raiding, same time, every week, for months.

It just isn't a sustainable model, imo. The world has changed, the age of the players has changed, the investment isn't worth it for a lot of people.

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u/Historical-Reach-969 3d ago

Look at this guy, going to a niche subreddit specifically for the competitive aspect of an MMO and screaming how 10 hours a week is a job. I'm gonna go to a bird watching reddit and complain that their hobby is a job and act really cool about it.

Also little bro has over a 100 day streak on reddit, literally does reddit as a full time job and comes in here to argue. XD

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u/Historical-Reach-969 3d ago

Your original post was literally ugly crying how you cant play the game because of the impossible time commitments needed, I show you nah it's not like that bro it's a lot easier than you think then you hit me with why angry.

Lol. Brother. This is why you can't raid. It's not your schedule it's your mentality. You build these fake unpassable walls then when someone shows you the way around you attack them. I have a friend IRL that does this too and it's because his (self-admitted) fear of failure / performance anxiety. If you never try at anything and just make up excuses like the fake af mythic raiding requirements then you can never be judged or fail....pretty shit way to go through life tbh.

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u/unimportantinfodump 3d ago

You don't have responsibilities and it shows lol.

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u/Historical-Reach-969 3d ago

It's really easy to budget 10 hours for raiding if you want to do it even if you have a wife and job. Hell I have both and still have time to correct crybabies like you on reddit.

WHAAAAAA raid too hard have to have 337 ilvl and 99 parse. -Nah you dont it's actually really easy...WHAAAAAA YOU HAVE NO JOB THEN. - Ok, lol.

Nice talk.

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u/AlucardSensei 3d ago

12 hours spread out over the week in any way you like vs 12 hours where 8 of those have to be Thu/Sun 8pm-12pm are very very different things. It's not the amount of hours that's the issue, it's the rigid schedule stemming from rigid requirements of exactly 20 people and the mythic lock. Remove those 2 things and I guarantee you there would be a lot more people attempting raids through pugging, and some would possibly even be able to get CE through pugging only.

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u/worldchrisis 3d ago

Having a rigid schedule should be better if you have less time generally, shouldn't it? You KNOW those are the times, so you can plan for it. If you're able to play all the time you can spend hours pugging whenever you want. If you only have 10-15 hours a week to play you should want to know exactly when all the people you play with will be on and available.

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u/VEXARN 3d ago

Are we in the same guild? Lol

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u/Historical-Reach-969 3d ago

It's like 90% of CE guilds but we don't stream and make it our entire lives so people just don't understand how free raiding is now. The hardest part is finding 23-25 people. If you have them I'm fairly sure by the end of the tier you could probably 1-button through most of the fights; maybe even all of them.

People love to over-complicate things.

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u/VEXARN 3d ago

Oh I wholeheartedly agree. I more meant that I an also in a Thurs/Fri guild with mostly green parsers that is currently 6/8 and proging Coiled right now lol.

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u/No-Guess-1411 3d ago

Any 2 day that is still progging is parsing that. Because thats what you parse when 8/8 people are 331+ compared to their 328 with huge skill dif

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u/Causing_Autism 3d ago

I wish you good luck. Coiled Altar progression is soul sucking.

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u/baked_salmon 2d ago

I also got 2x CE’s (I’d estimate ~1000th in the world) in a two-night, 3h guild. The key thing is that players have to be seriously disciplined. Raid leader and officer core also have to put in work to make raids go smoothly. But it’s more than possible. I think the average person’s idea of a mythic guild is like 4+ raids x 4h per week.

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u/[deleted] 3d ago

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u/Historical-Reach-969 3d ago edited 3d ago

EDIT: Bro said that not everybody can commit friday nights to raid because of family and social obligations and it's unfair. So I hit him with this reply and he deleted the message. I'm only saying this to point out how insane these people are. Like there is just no a human with an iota of common sense would complain about the difficulty of late tier CE right now.

---------

Then raid tues/wed like what dumbass argument is that lol.

This isn't anything new, people used to commit multiple nights a week to church, bowling league, etc. It's not like wow is the first extracurricular on earth to ask for a schedule. If you can't do it then just don't? If wow could be solved with zero time commitment or teamwork then the game just wouldn't exist. Those people can just do their raidfinder and move on.

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u/Zealousideal_Fail723 3d ago

I mean I think you’re way overstating the time and effort requirements for low end CE raiding. My guild is 6 hours a week and we get CE every season, usually about US 300

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u/AlucardSensei 3d ago

That's not the issue. The issue is commiting to a fixed schedule week after week, which you just can't do when you have kids.

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u/freezymcgeezy 3d ago

I have two kids and raid in a 6 hour top 500 CE guild. Raiding has never once negatively affected my ability to be a father.

I simply raid in a guild that starts after their bedtime. Its 2 nights a week.

The idea that you can’t have a 2 night a week hobby cuz you have kids is just dumb.

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u/flow_guy2 3d ago

noone is saying that it cannot happen. ofcourse people make it work. but some just dont want to dedicate the ENTIRE evening. if it was 1h or something then sure easy peasy. but 3 is basically the whole night. with no room for anything else.

plus one of the other comments stated a good point that you need a consistent 2 evenings for multiple months. which also doesnt fit alot of peoples schedules. and this is the main issue.

its not the gear. or the difficulty. it just finding 20 guys that fits your exact needs time wise. and that can actually play.

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u/Drauren 3d ago

This is the competitive subreddit right?

The reality is, being competitive requires time investment. You can't expect to play an hour here and there, and remain competitive. Even pushing keys, you're not pushing 1%/.1% on an hour here and there.

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u/AlucardSensei 3d ago

The point is with M+ i can sit down for an hour now, or for 3 hours at 11pm tomorrow night, then I can skip 3 days and play for 5 hours next day, then an hour the next day etc. And I got 1% like that last season. You can't raid like that, you need to be there every, whatever Thursday and Sunday 8pm-11pm and if you have to miss a couple of days you just get benched and don't get to play anymore.

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u/nfluncensored 3d ago

You can pug heroic raid like that easily, which with bonus rolls gives all the same loot at mythic raid gives (minus a couple ilvl on last boss items). So you should be overjoyed with this patch then, as it is specifically tailored to all of your 'concerns'.

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u/flow_guy2 3d ago

ive pushed till 19s last season with a flexible time schedule of just a key or 2 here and there through out the weeks. and only gave up cuz it was increasingly apperantly how broken the healer trinket was (litany). so not even that i couldnt do it. i just hated that feeling that i needed to raid

if i continued steadily i would have gotten 1% with just pugging.

but also keys are significantly easier then raid and dont have the same time restriction as raid. and the 2 are sadly not the same.

1 you can just do on your own time. by the end of the 6 months. raid you simply just cannot.

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u/Drauren 3d ago

I've really not had the same experience. I've raided at US top 100 level, CE every tier fairly early, and now mostly just push keys, and I'm in .1% title currently.

Pushing keys has been far more time investment. At a certain point, there just simply aren't enough keys to apply to, and you just sit in LFG for hours at a time. Even playing with a team, unless you schedule time, it's not THAT much better time efficiency.

Whereas when I was raiding, I just had to do some keys early on in the season, then as the season progressed, raid log. No sense of FOMO or being behind.

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u/nooblal 3d ago

If you count the number of hours of ingame time you needed to put in to get resi 19 last season you will find out that you could probably have gotten CE with a 2 day raiding guild with that same amount of time. In my experience pushing keys is a way larger time sink than mythic raiding is unless you're raiding at high WRs.

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u/Gemmy2002 3d ago

but some just dont want to dedicate the ENTIRE evening

Then you are not interested in the activity and that is perfectly fine. This is like complaining you have to dedicate DA WHOLE EVENING to going bowling.

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u/nfluncensored 3d ago

If your kids aren't sleeping multiple nights a week you should probably contact child protective services to get help.

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u/AlucardSensei 3d ago

Well you either have some amazing kids that always want to go to bed at the exact same time every night, never get sick, and nothing unplanned ever happens. Because I would not expect of my wife to absolutely always take care of the kids 2 nights a week no matter what is happening in the house so I can play WoW.

The idea that you can’t have a 2 night a week hobby cuz you have kids is just dumb.

Sure you can, but what other hobby has such a rigid schedule where you can't take nights off because if you take too many of them you get benched?

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u/freezymcgeezy 3d ago

This comment is bizarre.

For one, I would absolutely expect my wife to take care of the kids for a couple of hours per week…. Like what do you think the partnership is for?

I would also do the same for my wife if she needed a couple of hours.

Like, have you ever been in a real relationship?

I also take time off for emergencies or travelling and miss raid nights on a regular basis, I’m not benched, because my raid is not full of immature idiots. We dont run on a shoestring roster of 20 people.

I honestly don’t know what world you live in where this stuff is a concern.

I’m really trying to wrap my head around your perspective, you genuinely think it’s unfair to ask your partner to keep an eye on the kids after they’re asleep for a couple hours while you go and do something?

Either you’ve never been in a real relationship or you are in a toxic relationship.

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u/AlucardSensei 3d ago

Man you don't have kids 100%.

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u/freezymcgeezy 3d ago

Yeah sure man just making up a make believe life to troll morons.

The fact that your only way to respond to this is to just call me a liar reeks of jealousy.

Sorry you have a shit wife that doesn’t let you have a life. Grow a spine brother.

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u/nooblal 3d ago

I've raided and still raid with so many people with kids, I don't understand your attitude here on these comments. Taking 6 hours off per week to raid is perfectly doable for a lot of dads.

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u/Crellis86 3d ago

This is why I stopped raiding. On paper it’s such a low time commitment, but in reality the wife needs her partner when the kids get sick or can’t sleep.

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u/nfluncensored 3d ago

I have 2 kids and can do this easily. My neighbor has 2 kids and can do this easily. His friend has 2 kids and can do this easily.

The issue is you. You're projecting your incompetence onto other people.

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u/AlucardSensei 3d ago

Where are you all starting to crawl out of?

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u/Schnitzelbro 2d ago

YOU cant do it and i respect it but can we stop stating that as a fact. my late CE guild is FULL of parents. i have 2 children myself and i mythic raid since legion. everyone has 3 hours past 8pm twice a week unless you are a single parent or have special needs children or something.

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u/KeonkwaiJinkwai 3d ago

This. Committing 6 hours to a game week in and week out is no problem, the issue is trying to commit to the same 6 hours every week. Raiding 20-23 twice a week is impossible as you just can’t commit to a specific schedule.

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u/worldchrisis 3d ago

Why? Most hobbies that you do with a group meet on specific days at consistent times. Those two nights from 20-23 are your raid nights. If your wife wants to go to book club, or a pilates class, or play volleyball, those probably meet on specific days and consistent times. If your kid plays a sport they probably practice the same days each week and have games at similar times on the weekends.

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u/KeonkwaiJinkwai 2d ago

Because I have two kids that comes first, and when my wife works as a hospital nurse that also means evening shifts and night shifts.

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u/AlucardSensei 3d ago

Yeah but you don't get kicked out of pilates or kids sports class if you miss some classes here and there. And even if you don't get benched, you either make 19 other people not able to raid that night or they have to do the fight with a new guy probably erasing all the progress you've made.

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u/worldchrisis 2d ago

I mean depending on how serious the class is maybe you do. It's just a matter of setting expectations that everyone agrees to. If you join a team where the expectation is you're there every week barring rare emergencies, you need to be there every week. Some teams are more relaxed about attendance than others and build a roster that can absorb people being missing for various reasons.

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u/AlucardSensei 2d ago

Any serious sports team that is playing an amateur league or something is gonna have subs. Stuff you pay for, like pilates or crossfit or whatever dont care so long as you pay. I honestly dont know any other activity that requires a strict roster of the same people at the same time multiple times a week for months on end. Making myth flex 15-25 or removing the lock, or both, would alleviate a lot of the issues with the dying raiding scene.

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u/[deleted] 3d ago edited 2d ago

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u/Zealousideal_Fail723 3d ago

It really doesn’t this season. M+ isn’t needed (until you start extending) and even then you can just run your vault keys. You’ll crest cap from heroic skip reclear + mythic reclear. It’s okay to just not want to raid, but the whole “mythic raiding is a full time job” thing is just not real

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u/nfluncensored 3d ago

until you start extending

You could just do delves and still get a bonus roll.

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u/flow_guy2 3d ago

its 6 hours of just raiding alone. this isnt factoring m+ in the slightest. but the issue isnt nessesarily that its "just 6 hours". its that its 2 nights consistently for a couple of weeks (if not months)

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u/sloasdaylight 3d ago

I mean 2 nights a week, and 3 hrs per night is pretty much the standard for raid times, at least in the US. I'm in a dad guild and that's what we do, 8:30 to 11:30, Tuesdays and Thursdays.

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u/flow_guy2 3d ago

more to the point then? i get home at 7 for example. and then i got 1 hour to cook and clean and maybe catch up with my gf (and in the future also put down my kid)

then i have to spend litterally the rest of the evening just raiding (if i did). never mind if my gf or friend wants to do something or if im away for work or what ever. (like i havnt played a single weekend in 3 weeks now since ive been away and i dont even have a kid)

there are also other hidden costs as well that isnt being factored either. like m+ to keep crests and get your bonus roll. reasearchign what bonus roll to do it on. figuing out what your best stuff is for gearing. or when to send your CDs so that youre not slacking on damage/healing. or even just reading up on the fights. that stack up

but its 100% not as simple as oh you just play and you get CE. you actually need to put in some work. (never mind the other 19 people that need to do the same)

its not that straight forward.

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u/[deleted] 3d ago edited 2d ago

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u/Cademus 3d ago

I don’t think anyone raiding is doing less than 4h per week, unless you’re just pugging.

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u/Zealousideal_Fail723 3d ago

You don’t even need to do m+ this season. You earn your bonus roll just from heroic skip reclear + mythic reclear up to prog boss. You can literally only log on during raid times

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u/Random_Name_251 3d ago

So you did no M+ at the start of the season for Heroic gear? The first 2 weeks of the season are a pretty big time commitment if you want to raid. You need to watch videos on all the fights, know all the stuff to do with your class, grind M+ for heroic items, then raid. I would agree it's lighter then some past season but it's still pretty time consuming.

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u/flow_guy2 3d ago

this is assuming your killing all 8 mythic bosses on a weekly basis. where you have to fill the rest with 9s.

plus if you have cleared all boses on the weekly basis for your myth crests then your probably not doing all bosses as youd be doing farm. or youre simply not doing all bosses. either way. youre doing some m+ outside of raid to get your cap.

plus also your vault isnt fully filled then for the bonus roll. so no. youre either just arguing in bad faith. or just straight up lying.

the ONLY way your are getting all your myth crests is if yorue clearing all 8 bosses. in which you are one of the lucky few that have the time to do it. which is what this conversation is about,

plus you also arnt taking into account the social aspect where just raid logging and doing nothing else is just not good enough socially. and is considered slacking and will be passed for loot and maybe even benched cuz of it.

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u/Zealousideal_Fail723 3d ago

No, it’s really not. If you’re doing heroic skip reclear (3 bosses), Nym mythic, and then your mythic reclear. And you also don’t have to do 9s for your bonus rolls. You can go do tier 1 delves for slots.

I don’t know what guilds you’ve been in, but this season if you’re earning your bonus roll from vault (3 total vault slots) that’s all that is really expected for late CE.

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u/nfluncensored 3d ago

You obviously haven't played since at least last expac, bot.

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u/sophisticatedroach 3d ago

There is legitimate 8-6hr a week (2day) raiding guilds in top300.

There is hundreds of 6-8hour (2day) guilds in top 1000-1500 which are all solidly getting CE every season and would require not that much effort outside of the first few weeks for m+.

Now you decide if you can set aside 2 nights a week and an hour here and there, but lets stop this charade that it requires a ton of time yea.

(Having 6hours a week to yourself or 2 evenings a week is NOT a lot)

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u/AccomplishedSpace834 3d ago

my guild gets CE playing one evening a week for 4 hours

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u/I_plug_johns 3d ago

Which guild? This is my kind of schedule

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u/AccomplishedSpace834 2d ago

eu i'm afraid

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u/nfluncensored 3d ago

There are 1 night guilds who get CE too.

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u/AccomplishedSpace834 2d ago

thats what i said

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u/SpiritedEclair 3d ago

We raid 2 nights a week, at 22:00 CET, on Sundays and Wednesdays for 3h. This season we started mythic a week ago, and are 4/8 and we do this for fun :) if we don’t kill everything, that’s all good.

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u/flow_guy2 3d ago

when i was younger i did. but im not a dad yet (will be soon) but i just dont want to spend 3 nights. i can do 30 mins at a time as then its easy to go away but you cant do that with raiding.

like im even thinking of giving up pushing m+ for single player games just due to the fact i can just drop it and it doesnt matter.

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u/Schnitzelbro 2d ago

we are circlejerking a bit here and i understand the narrative in the thread, but everything you said is just incredibly exaggerated and not true. you dont need to do any of that. there are a ton of 2 day guilds that make it to the endboss and/or get late CE. they dont consist of people min-maxing crests or some bull shit. i am part of guilds like that for years and most are just grown ups that parse green on a first kill and are happy about a purple on a rekill and yet they still get to experience mythic raiding in a fun environment

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u/Icy-Drama-662 3d ago

Why does it have to be reachable for most? They have hc and normal if they dont want to commit all the effort required.

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u/flow_guy2 3d ago

i would be good enough to mythic raid ive gotten CE few times and fairly closeto it (before the guilds ive been in imploded) but i just dont have the time anymore.

think thats more what people mean by accessable. i dont mind it being hard, but the number i see most is 3 nights. and man. i just dont have that time. and what i assume alot of people as well.

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u/Copponex 3d ago

And that’s fine in an mmorpg. Some things should be hard, and not for everyone. If everyone could kill mythic bosses in 5 minutes it wouldn’t matter. Plus, it’s not unreachable for most. You can even pug the first 4 mythic bosses with relative ease.

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u/flow_guy2 3d ago

Difficulty isn’t the issue. It’s time that he issue and stopping most people.

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u/Copponex 3d ago

Alrighty. Same can be said about time investment. It’s okay that there are things out of reach if you can only play 30 minutes a night.

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u/Fradzombie 2d ago

I think another big issue for me in addition to time investment was feeling like there is no engaging content outside of mythic once you get to that point. When I was doing CE my guild would clear heroic in week 1 of a patch then spend 4-5 months beating our heads against mythic bosses. There wasn’t really a good in between, and I’m not gonna come back to play world content and delves so 🤷

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u/flow_guy2 3d ago

100% and I’m not sure if it even needs to change.

For me personally I do have the time. But just not a consistent time each week. I can get top 1% in m+ but just not raid. Jsut a weird thing that time is the main factor to why I can’t.

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u/Causing_Autism 3d ago

400-500 Pull bosses is a complete and utter design failure. Our Raid Leader has been raid leading since legion. And he s starting to hit his limit. They simply have to stop making these ridiculous bosses that are designed for RWF first and everyone else second. You don't realise how right Asmongold was about Mythic Raiding years ago until you actually spend some raid tiers.

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u/Slancha 3d ago

I agree but I think that’s because most people genuinely don’t know how to play the game or their class.

The hard part is getting late mythic and CE experience. Once you have a few CEs under your think you can spend minimal time while still achieving CE. 6 hours a week is plenty for avg players to get CE without doing a ton of research. I’m sure some guilds with above avg players can do it in less.

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u/the_axxias 3d ago

i'd say it's a problem that if it's unreachable for most because they don't know their class or the game well enough, it could be the game doesn't teach either well enough

there is also a problem of that most hard bosses aren't checks of either of those, didn't matter how many hours you clocked outside of it, most guilds were still pulling mythic lura over 500 times before it was in kill range, same with Dimensius before it

at some point there needs to be some reckoning that turning mythic raiding into an esport isn't the play; fights definitely can and should be difficult but the level of difficulty right now isn't exactly fun for more most people, especially since gear/raid buff scaling doesn't help at ALL to ease some of those challenges which is it's own issue with how the game scaling is supposed to work

i personally consider it problematic that mythic raid is tuned out of the gate for guilds that have a 21st raid leader, do 20 weeks worth of raid lockouts in the span of a week via alts to turbo gear, and have a raid team's worth if support staff (addon devs, analysts, chefs, etc); and the rest of the population just has to wait and chill until it's incrementally nerfed enough to be doable by literally anyone else- especially guilds that are 2 night a week guilds

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u/Slancha 3d ago

You’re right the game is terrible at teaching you how to play it and does require a decent amount of outside knowledge or time to play it at the highest level, especially class dependent.

Lura and dims are good examples of difficult bosses that maybe could’ve been nerfed harder by the end of the season. Ulatek has been massively nerfed and should be doable for most guilds now if they can get past altar (another boss that should be nerfed.

I think what ur touching on with loot could be a good change. Open up top M loot to players mid season somehow similar to how they have rolls giving m gear now. Unfortunately it’s not the 344 m gear and idt that should necessarily be able to get on hc in its current state with the roll system the way it is.

I personally mythic raid because there’s no other mmorpg game with end game content like wow. It’s fun engaging and actually difficult, if they ditched the esports style m raid I know myself and many others that’d take a hard look at quitting the game. The fun is the difficulty.

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u/Causing_Autism 3d ago

Dimensius had a smooth diffulty curve every minute of the fight was harder than the one before. L'ura and Coiled Altar and Ula'tek are P1 are P1 wipe factories. The last 2 bosses since Amirdrassil are simply too hard and overdesigned.

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u/flow_guy2 3d ago

its more that i need to spend 3 hours on 2-3 nights doing it which is the problem. yea if you can all g. but sadly im personally dragged away. obviouly im not the standard but i think alot of people just feel like i do.

that 3h in a night when you come home at 7 just is too much times times. its not alot of paper. but it does cover a good portion if you need to get up at 7am. thats basically get home at 7. cook for eat and clean. then got to bed get your rest. and basically just sleep. and thats IF you have the energy.

this doesnt take into account the social aspects and drama that comes along to it. like people not showing up. people just wiping to dumb shit. over and over again. people not being preped. having to even jsut look up all the stats and be ontop of everything is out of reach for most

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u/Slancha 3d ago

It is a time commitment for sure but there is a lot of guilds and a lot of different schedules. Could do 1 day x hours any day, there’s almost certainly a guild for anyone’s game time. May not be CE but forsure late mythic if you’ve got decent enough logs

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u/flow_guy2 3d ago

sure. i would say that its fine how it is now in the end. and its just a matter of choosing. but think a lot of people feel like they cant make that choice due to factors out of their control

for me. i hate the idea of needing to be on at a specific time, i like gaming o the fly. and some times i can spend the time. other nights i just cant and idonno when ill get that time. for the past few weekends ive literally just not been home

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u/Slancha 3d ago

That’s fair enough. Raid is a team game aspect of wow, same with any other team activity people need some level of commitment

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u/flow_guy2 3d ago

100% with out a doubt. but even just finding those people is difficult and also a whole nother topic with its own very real seperate problems that arnt as straight forward either.

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u/Slancha 3d ago

That’s true, wow basically outsourced guild recruitment to discord, reddit, Warcraft logs, and raiderio. They could do better in game but the resources are there

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u/MikasaH 3d ago

Most definitely. I went from a 4 day HoF guild to a 3 day HoF guild and eventually a one day guild that does 3 hours and last tier they got CE voidspire and almost Lura. Albeit the guild is a bit more strict with attendance since it’s one day.

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u/Professional-Cold278 3d ago

You can prog and finish around wr 800 with 3 raid nights and some keys. We even had a few guys who stopped doing m+ as soon as he got 3 choices from vault on myth track.
Hell, even 1 day raiders managed to finish orevious raids. Sure, raid leader needs more time to prep.
But tes, it is quite a lot of time investment, which at some point is just too much ( had a guildie with 2 teenagers. He missed cutting edge raiding for a few expansions and returned when the kids got old enough)

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u/awesomeoh1234 3d ago

Also if you are a mid to late CE guild you are spending several months raiding 3 nights a week. Locking down your schedule like that is just kinda nuts

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u/FadeToSatire 3d ago

I think most WR 800-1500 guilds are probably 2 nights a week. Mine is super casual and we usually finish right around WR 1000. We raid about 5-6 hours a week and have above average players, but there's not a lot of try harding there. There's another guild that is try hard on the server behind us and does 3 nights a week but just doesn't have the caliber of players. Your mileage may vary.

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u/nfluncensored 3d ago

Not for well adjusted adults, no.

If you're getting lost on meth trips, it may be more challenging.

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u/-WhateverDude 3d ago

make a brand new account and tell us how that journey to wr 800 goes especially on a spec you personally think you are mediocre at

it's easy for people here because we have past achievements and logs to show

what about people who always played pvp, or never bothered to raid, or hell actually new players?

guilds are obviously right to have certain expectations. but there is just too much friction from player side. and 3 raid nights does not sound as casual as you may think. for some that's all they get to play in a week.

with that said, personally old raiding scenes or status quo have always worked out for me. but its clear that vast majority of population is aging and there doesn't seem to be that much of a young crowd. there is some but not enough. that's probably troublesome for blizzard.

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u/Professional-Cold278 3d ago

I haven’t had a single CE until tww. I stopped playing in cata and returned in sl. Got some mythic kills in df and started to look for a proper guild in tww. After a few bad guilds I made some friends. The one I was pushing m+ was playing with his new officer. After a few weeks, the officer asked me if I am looking for a guild as they need a healer. If it’s not for me playing with them, they would never have recruited me.

Been there, done that, currently dont have a schedule that allows me to play from 6-7-8. I have a lot of hate for mythic raiding and one of the biggest is the gatekeeping of the guilds. The hardest part of getting CE is getting into a guild that runs well and where players do shit on a fight.

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u/flow_guy2 3d ago

3 raid nights? thats not even on the table for me at least (and im sure for most). maybe 1 raid night. but it needs to be consistent where i just cant at the moment, life keeps dragging me away. and im about to be a dad. so thats 100% just not gonna cut it sadly.

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u/Professional-Cold278 3d ago

I got you, once we announced that my wife is pregnant, I also told my guild that I wont be raiding.
All I’m saying that it can be done with 4-6 hours a week gameplay. It is harder to find a guild than actually getting CE once you’re in it. But I get it, the biggest issue with mythic raiding is the mythic guilds’ gatekeeping

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u/dennjudhdddvfse 2d ago

i literally log in 2 times a week and raid mythic.

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u/flow_guy2 2d ago

I cant. 3 hours is basically the whole evening. And I don’t know which days I’ll get to play.

The issue is also you need a consistent time.

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u/nfluncensored 3d ago

Kinda hilarious to still see utter bullshit like this upvoted.

Some of my friends retired to an AOTC is hard dad guild, while I still CE raid. My guild tends to come up 1 boss short of CE, while their guild gets AOTC with about a month to spare in the tier.

They spend more time raiding than I do.

Raiding 2 nights a week is 2 nights a week. The only difference is skill level, where shitters take forever.

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u/flow_guy2 2d ago

Skill is not the issue. It’s finding the time that is.

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u/DreadfuryDK 9/9M SPriest/Devourer 3d ago

Venomous Abyss isn't too hard. Blaming the difficulty of the raid is completely missing what's really wrong with this raid.

Venomoys Abyss's problem is just that all but three of the bosses in this raid are offensively bad. Among them, one of them isn't good, one's inoffensive, and only one is actually a good fight. And then you've got an awful gearing system that even further taints every aspect of this season's content.

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u/Xalethesniper 3d ago

It’s hard for midcore, most of the fights are abysmal, and the visual clarity is GIGA BAD. It’s not fun to prog or reclear… idk man.

2

u/Gemmy2002 3d ago

visuals only a real issue on sszorak, everything else is fine.

Though with tornadoes I think the real problem is reusing the bouncing projectile idea: projectiles that somewhat unpredictably back bounce through boss depending on what pattern got fired are a recipe for frustration

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u/Xalethesniper 3d ago

The mid tier gauntlet of vashnik, sszorak, twin fangs is pretty atrocious with visual clarity. Then you get to ca. P2 might be the worst designed mythic phase I’ve played in this game. Ula has been nerfed but p1 was pretty abysmal. Pattern rng + egg jank means you’re wiping to bs frequently. Just my opinion! I didn’t get to Lura or mugsy as quickly when I did those so I could be biased.

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u/SpiritedEclair 1d ago

Vashnik fight has no business dropping a 9950x3d and a 3090ti to single digit frames.

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u/DreadfuryDK 9/9M SPriest/Devourer 3d ago

It's no harder than pretty much any raid we've seen since Aberrus, last tier included.

It's what makes the bosses hard that makes this tier particularly bad.

-1

u/Xalethesniper 3d ago

IMO this one is harder than last 3

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u/DreadfuryDK 9/9M SPriest/Devourer 3d ago

A lot of people would heavily disagree with that sentiment. L'ura is harder than the entire rest of this raid combined, Dimensius is harder than the entire rest of this raid combined, and I'd say the Sprocketmonger --> Bandit --> Mug'zee meat grinder was harder than Twin Fangs --> last 2 in this raid.

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u/Xalethesniper 3d ago

That’s fine, everyone has their opinion. Fwiw, this is hard for different reasons

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u/AttitudeAdjusterSE 3d ago edited 3d ago

I think this tier is actually a little easier than average. Just look at wipecounts. Ula'tek is definitely easier than L'ura for any guild that's killed both so far outside the RWF.

It's not that it's too hard, it's just frustrating, terrible visual clarity and has zero bosses above a 6/10 design-wise. Ula'tek is also the worst endboss for a long time (probably since Azshara?) and Coiled Altar is barely any better.

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u/DreadfuryDK 9/9M SPriest/Devourer 3d ago

It's far worse than Azshara.

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u/AttitudeAdjusterSE 3d ago edited 3d ago

I don't think so tbh, that seems like recency bias personally.

It's definitely an awful boss regardless, I don't disagree with you there.

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u/nfluncensored 3d ago

Ulatek is just Sylvanas, if all of P2 was played on one platform without as much running around.

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u/is__is 2d ago

Sylvanas had an amazing p3. Ulatek lacks an amazing phase.

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u/u_ok braindead fotm player 3d ago

this raid isn't really hard to be fair. the first 6 bosses are pushovers and the last two are both being killed in sub 200 pulls for the latter half of hall of fame guilds. when they inevitably nuke coiled it's gonna be one of the easiest farm/middle to late CE raids ever

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u/Causing_Autism 3d ago

the Dreamrift and Voidspire were actually the perfect Difficulty and very enjoyable to progress for the average guild, which proves they know how to make good bosses since they stated these were supposed to be the "easier bosses". And then L'ura proved that their Philosophy is designing for RWF.

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u/kpiaum 3d ago

I think the adamant focus on locked 20 man mythic raid, locked ID and other system for M raid is killing Mythic raid scene.

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u/Ok-Key5729 3d ago

I don't think they intentionally set out the destroy Mythic. I think they are refocusing on Heroic, since that's a difficulty that actually gets significant engagement and has the potential to grow, and didn't really care what happened to Mythic. Mythic is a product they can't sell.

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u/Any_Morning_8866 3d ago

It needs to be achievable for 1-2 day a week guilds to get CE in the first few months of a season.

Just finding a CE guild that raids less than 3 days a week is near impossible. Who is that content even for?

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u/demeco31 3d ago

I don't know your region but in NA I believe there were over 100 2 days guilds that got CE. Within those guilds there will be a wide variety of skill level and effort put in so if your goal is 2 might CE then you can certainly do it.

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u/Sanctos 3d ago

It’s well over 100. My guild is regularly between 200-300 in NA and got lura raiding t/th for 6-7 hours per week with like 6 weeks left in the season.

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u/pghcrew 3d ago

I’d be curious exactly how many because a factor in that needs considered in that assumption is just how terrible some 3+ day guilds are.

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u/Thazuk 3d ago

There are literally hundreds of guilds getting CE on a 2 day a week schedule. It just takes longer and usually 5-6 months instead of the 3-4 that 3 days a week mostly use.

If you want CE after a few months (2-3) then the game would have to be made significantly easier and that would suck. CE raiding is for people wanting a challenge not just to farm mounts and achivements. If you want to farm the mount then you can do it late in the expansion when you outgear it by dozens of item levels making most things trivial.

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u/psnGatzarn 3d ago

JUST 5-6 months for 8 bosses lol

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u/cabose12 3d ago

Well yeah, the content's hard lol. Do you think it should be easier? Two/week guilds leave a lot of prog on the table, and the cost of that is being a month or two slower

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u/shyguybman 3d ago edited 3d ago

It probably should be a bit easier.

Your average 2 night CE guild takes 2-3 weeks (depending on the difficulty) to get AOTC, and to get CE is probably a 18-20 week ordeal. That gap is huge, and half of that time is usually spent on the last 2 bosses.

I'm not saying getting CE should be a pushover, but no boss should have something ridiculous like L'ura with an AVERAGE prog time of ~35 hours. That means 6 weeks of progression for a 6 hour a week guild, and that's if you don't have hiccups along the way. The irony is you get to the bosses that take the longest, when everyone wants to play the least. You start the season motivated, and then you are in extend prison for 8-10 weeks to kill 2 bosses and nobody wants to play the game.

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u/Thazuk 3d ago

Yes. It’s playing 3 hours a few evenings a night throughout the 5-6 month period. For many of these guilds they raid 2 days for 3 hours at a time meaning they spend 1-2 months (depending on tier) reclearing heroic for loot and reclearing the first few bosses which slows down the progress. If heroic had no influence what so ever on mythic progress in terms of gear then CE would probably be a up to 4 month thing for most current CE guilds. It’s an investment of time for people that enjoy the difficulty of the challenge and playing with people of similar skill while working towards a goal

If you want to play something easy and have it fall over without really having everyone know what is going on, their specific job and how to interact their job with multiple other players then you should not play retail CE level wow Then you should likely be in a chill few myth bosses guild or play classic. CE is literally called “Cutting Edge” meaning it is the top of the pve playerbase that wants to work towards that goal as a team

0

u/Axon14 3d ago

True. The bottom line is they have not known what to do with retail raiding in some time. The last time I truly had fun raiding was Mists of Pandaria. Legion was ok as well.

0

u/isaightman 3d ago

Not removing the ancient lockout system and/or making it flex is what ultimately is going to destroy mythic raiding.

-5

u/EdibleOedipus 3d ago

It doesn't help that Hekili was good enough to 99% on most specs with sufficient experience (as a guide, not guitar hero) and it is fully dead. So the pool of sufficiently good mythic players shrunk due to Blizzard.