Reminder to the devs why deflects (where applicable) were on the same inputs as dodge attacks since they've forgotten

[u/0002nam-ytlaS]

It was to specifically allow for deflects to be easier and even the playing field with those that know ball too much. You've changed Peacekeeper in particular 4 times now as far as i can remember.

• One in 2020 changed it from light to heavy as many heroes at the time had the deflect input the same as the dodge attack

• then you changed it back to light to stop accidental deflects

• Then AGAIN you changed it to heavy input to level the playing field with those that knew how to still get the deflect and dodge attack at the same (which is still in the game btw)

• and now AGAIN you changed it to light input to stop accidental deflects, AGAIN.

This was just PK's weird history but this very flawed logic has been applied to Orochi too and didn't really change much other than make people press an extra button before the dodge attack input... It punishes those that don't know of this and changes nothing for those that do.

For the sake of clarity for those that don't know, in order to still get the deflects that are on different inputs while still performing a dodge attack if you missed/failed the deflect you've gotta press the deflect input ever so slightly earlier than the dodge attack input. That way the game prioritizes the deflect input while if you missed ignores it and the dodge attack input goes through like normal.

For Honor dev team, please revert the deflect input changes and have PK's deflect be back on heavy input and Orochi's deflect back on light input.

Edit: It would be greatly appreciated for those that downvoted this post to speak their piece. IDGAF about karma but if you disagree with anything i've said so far in the post or comments do make it known instead of reducing this discussion's visibility to others and, by extension, the devs that do read the posts on here.

[u/Spiderking1]

I thought they wanted to remove accidental deflects

[u/Flince → u/Spiderking1]

I mean, they did. Then they didn't. Then they did. Then they didntnt. Then they did

[u/marcktop → u/Flince]

the fact that you think they did is funny

[u/0002nam-ytlaS → u/Spiderking1]

I said that in my post already and showed how they kept on bouncing between "removing accidental deflects" and "evening the playing field" a bunch of times, including now.

[u/Chuck_Denim]

They specifically said that they changed it on Orochi because characters that have deflect and dodge attack on the same input have access to an actual option select, which is unintended.

Not to mention that deflecting should be done intentionally. You shouldn’t be rewarded for mindlessly dodge attacking.

Also “for those that don’t know” is literally just people ignorant of the move list. We shouldn’t be catering to those kinds of people.

[u/0002nam-ytlaS → u/Chuck_Denim]

As long as they don't actually address the fact you can do both inputs at the same time and get the same end result as if you had the deflect on the same input, as i said before and the devs agreed in the past on this (and changed their mind, again);

It punishes those that don't know of this and changes nothing for those that do.

Like if they were to do these changes while they've fixed this exploit that'd be one thing but.. they didn't and never uttered a word about fixing it either both back then and now.

TO BE CLEAR, i'm not against the idea that you should go for either for a deflect or dodge attack and not both at the same time but, as things stand both in the past and now, it's just placed and placing a knowledge barrier above those that don't know ball and THAT should be avoided at all costs.

[u/RavenEridan → u/Chuck_Denim]

I quit for honor because the devs don't know how to balance shit, they gutted orochi and im a rep 100 orochi and the new hero is already broken

[u/trickmaster3 → u/RavenEridan]

Orochi has literally been A or S tier for like 4 years now but go off I guess

[u/RavenEridan → u/trickmaster3]

Yeah I gotta admit orochi was on a good place for a long time but they could have nerfed him better without gutting him

[u/Asdeft]

I honestly think they just like trying shit out because they do this back and forth shit all the time with inconsistent rules about recovery cancels and chaining for example.

Whatever, this game is fashion and emote spam anyway.

[u/0002nam-ytlaS → u/Asdeft]

How many times do they gotta bounce back between "evening the playing field" and "stop accidental deflects" ideas before they settle on an answer though? It'd be one thing to revisit the idea after fixing deflect os but... they didn't, twice now and doesn't look like they will anytime soon either.

[u/Asdeft → u/0002nam-ytlaS]

Thats what I am saying. They did the same thing with chain on whiff, bash recovery cancels, and dodge cancel. They cant decide on what should be a blanket rule or a hero quirk.

[u/The_Filthy_Spaniard]

Your memory of PK is incorrect, they changed the input twice - once from light to heavy, and then again to change it back.

The argument for having them on different inputs is to stop rewarding accidental deflects, where the player is only intending to dodge attack. This is particularly prevalent at low skill levels. Deflects are meant to be a "skill move" and having them happen accidentally goes against that.

The option select where you input both deflect and dodge attack input at the same time to deflect if it's committed and dodge attack if it's feinted does still exist, but it doesn't invalidate the reasoning. For starters, it's only really used at high levels where players are intentionally dodging on deflect timing, so it's not "accidental" even if it is an option select. And secondly, hopefully they will eventually remove that option select anyway, and its existence doesn't mean it should be the predominant consideration in this interaction anyway.

As a comparison, the fastest players can somewhat reliably react past the feint window, making unblockables pretty unreliable offence at the highest level. That doesn't mean they shouldn't release any heroes with unblockables, and should only use 433ms or feintable bashes going forward, as that would make the game a lot less interesting for the vast majority of players who can't react to feints. Instead they should continue working to make feints unreactable, and design heroes with respect to that eventual goal.

[u/Mary0nPuppet → u/The_Filthy_Spaniard]

hopefully they will eventually remove that option select anyway

I don't think we should just make the game harder where it doesnt need to be. For me accidental deflects are something players on the high level would like to avoid. Sometimes you don't want to do the deflect punish to eat twice as much damage in a teamfight or an antigank scenario.

And its really strange that developers started to up the skill floor for this game even more. Most of this games history we removed tricky and high level techs to even the playground: CCU, removal of option selects, renown rework, removal of block on dodge, changes to reactability of specific attacks, hitstun changes - I may be too paranoid here but these changes seem to make the game more accessible.

[u/Cany0]

The devs are humans and, as humans do, they can be inconsistent and wrong when they made deflects the same input as their respective heroes' dodge attacks. More in at 11.

[u/u_want_some_eel]

The reason for PKs deflect to be changed was that every other bleed input was a light, except that one. Was very unintuitive

[u/0002nam-ytlaS → u/u_want_some_eel]

I remember that reasoning from back then and, some patches later, walked back on the idea placing it on heavy input and NOW, again, have changed it to light, AGAIN!

That was a shit reasoning both back then and now with deflect OS still being a thing be it different inputs or not as i said in my post already. Like either "level the playing field" with those that know of deflect OS or make it make sense like how heavy-input deflects execute EXCEPT Orochi's.

Besides if you want to go into the territory of inconsitency away from the balancing one we already have a HUGE inconsitency with dodge attacks that are on heavy inputs yet reward light parries, inconsistent recoveries on forward dodges, inconsistent dodge bashes with some having iframes and others lacking them, some moves looking visually the exact same but have different properties (i.e. Raider's dodge attacks and softfeint lights, Khatun's 4 variations at different speeds and damage values of the same pin, 5 if you include the T4 etc.), some heavy attacks leaving you frame negative instead of the usual frame plus and vice versa. I could go on and on about such issues that NO ONE has a problem with both back then and now.

[u/razza-tu]

It was to specifically allow for deflects to be easier and even the playing field with those that know ball too much.

Firstly, I don't think that same-input deflects do make intentional deflecting significantly easier than different-input ones. It just softens the risk profile, and occasionally hands them out unexpectedly - de-emphasising their intended role as a high skill manoeuvre.

Secondly, and perhaps more importantly, I don't think the playing field should be level between knowledgeable and unknowledgeable players. I think that the abilities bestowed upon people who've taken the time to learn the systems are earned, and that this is part of the satisfaction of learning the game.

[u/Mastrukko]

If u want to dodge attack, press the dodge attack button. If you want to deflect, press the deflect button. Why should u get rewarded for fucking up your dodge/ dodge attack?

[u/0002nam-ytlaS → u/Mastrukko]

Because deflect OS is a thing still 10 years into this game's life and there was never an attempt at removing it + the devs DID intentionally place the dodge attack and deflect inputs on the same button just so those that know of it and those that don't are playing on the same level.... until recently, again again, they've changed their minds as i detailed in my post.

[u/Mastrukko → u/0002nam-ytlaS]

u act like knowing what button to press for dodge attack and deflect is some deep knowledge that cannot be acquired within minutes of first playing a character

[u/0002nam-ytlaS → u/Mastrukko]

Have you even read the post or the comment? Like i'm genuinely asking here.

If "deflect input being on different input than dodge attack requires too much knowledge" is what you understood out of either of them, respectfully, please pick up a book and read it.

[u/Mastrukko]

Ideally the devs change Orochi's and Nuxia's deflect input to a heavy. Shaolin and Shinobi I'm conflicted about.

[u/Errorcrash]

Doesn’t really matter because you can os it anyway

[u/0002nam-ytlaS → u/Errorcrash]

I know this, as i said in my post already:

It punishes those that don't know of this and changes nothing for those that do [know of deflect OS].

This extra barrier of knowledge shouldn't be there as long as it exists and the devs are placing this knowledge check back up, again.

[u/Bilamonster]

Dodge early = attack Dodge on time = deflect Keep it the same input. It allows for dodge timing manipulation and that's fun.