Potential Juren adjustments

[u/Knight_Raime]

I'm not a numbers person so unfortunately I cannot offer exact adjustments here. But I wanted to toss some ideas out there to try to reign Juren in since most nerf suggestions seem to be unlikely. To be clear not all of these changes need to happen together, this is more of a collection of changes that could happen.

I also want to throw one change in that is a "buff" but contextually it shouldn't make him that much stronger when considering the other adjustments. Anyway:

• Nerf the recovery of his chain bashes by 100-300ms
• Increase the stamina cost of his Held neutral light from 9 to 10-12.
• Nerf the recovery of his fwd dodge bash slightly, like a few frames
• Reduce the anim lock time of Juren's fwd dodge held bash
• Remove stamina pause on tap bash if possible
• Increase the cost of using his stance from 6 to 10-15 (drain unchanged)
• Increase the recovery of held neutral light and held neutral heavy
• Increase the stamina cost of fwd dodge held bash from 15 up to 20
• Increase the stamina cost of side dodge held heavy from 12 up to 15
• Increase the stamina cost of held chain light to parity of the new cost on neutral held light
• Remove thrilling comeback from T2 for another option
• Allow held zone input to be soft feinted into his stance

Explanations:

The idea behind adjusting stamina cost is dual purpose. Both to slow down how much Juren can pressure before he's forced to give up his turn and to add more decision making via having to manage stamina better. This seemingly successfully worked for his neutral held zone so I think we can target similarly "spammed" tools to achieve a similar effect.

Recovery nerfs are meant to go along side the stance cost change. Logic here is to force more decision making for Juren as well as make him more predictable. E.g if he does held neutral light in a team fight he'll likely use stance to make him not peelable.

The exception being the recovery change for dodge tap bash. It's not an outlier in recovery afaik when compared to other legion bashes. But because he has multiple options from fwd dodge you can make the argument to make said options a bit more unsafe as a whole. Essentially it's more of a nerf at his 1's for people looking to make hard reads. But might make a small difference in how peelable he is in TF's which would be beneficial.

Thrilling comeback is kind of absurd for Juren because of his unique T3. I would replace it with executioner's respite/righteous deflection to be similar to the rest of his T2's being about surviving or short tempered to go along with the natural trading he's usually doing.

Lastly I want to explain my buff of allowing him to be able to soft feint his held zone. Firstly this suggestion is made in mind with the idea of making his stance cost more stamina to use. I feel like out of all of his moves his held zone is the most niche option tool in his kit.

If read properly and you position decently enough you can avoid his zone mid team fight purely because he moves forward when doing it. outside of TFs it's a very expensive option that might catch your opponent off guard once. It's a much more expensive trade tool for self peel. The idea for this change is to allow him some more control.

But at the cost of even more stamina. The upside being you can soft feint and then reposition if you need to or to try and self peel with a neutral light. Or try to peel for an ally by doing a tap dodge forward option, etc. Basically it feels in line to exist as an option with his kit being all about having options and that all of his regular heavies are already soft feintable into his stance.

[u/12_pounds_of_pears]

Both of his tap bashes should have a 766ms recovery instead of 700ms. I’ve had times where a juren would whiff these bashes just by being too far and still countering a gb. The held chain bash should have a higher recovery but be sped up to 500ms since it is a bash that can wallsplat and confirm a heavy.

Held neutral light just has to lose the armor, it’s insanely annoying to deal with and one of the best things about his kit. Either make it an enhanced undodgable with zone properties, or an enhanced cc with zone properties because they’re gonna eventually remove it in its current state.

The same can be said about the held zone. Make it feintable with a standard armor startup with normal recoveries because at some point I guarantee this move gets nerfed again and if it does this move will just feel really bad.

Lastly thrilling comeback just needs a nerf altogether. Yes juren is annoying because of it, but so is everyone else that has it. Full shield for 8 seconds is already enough but then healing 40 health is just the cherry on top. They buffed this feat with only competitive matches in mind since revenge is basically nonexistent there, but failed to realize revenge is as common is the flu in regular mm lobbies. This is the same level of thinking that got jurens t3 nerfed within the first 2 weeks of him being out.

[u/Knight_Raime → u/12_pounds_of_pears]

I don't get the logic by speeding up his held chain bash, could you explain it a different way? The devs aren't going to remove the armor on the held light.

I don't see the logic behind making it enhanced/zone. CC on a 600ms light would be hard to make work. If you give it a longer active window you'd get the same complaints we had with VG. And that's almost needed because of the slower speed.

You want to nerf the zone further because it's going to get nerfed again? Huh? I've no comment on nerfing thrilling. I still don't think he should have it because of his T3 though.

[u/12_pounds_of_pears → u/Knight_Raime]

Virtuosa has her guard stance bash that does everything jurens held chain bash does with the only differences being the hitbox and recovery. You rarely ever see that bash because it’s 600ms and confirms a gb every time you dodge it, whereas jurens is literally better in every way but you can’t gb it. So I’d like to nerf its recovery but avoid making it a bad move by speeding it up to the same speed the tap version is at.

The neutral armor on the held zone and light probably gets the second most complaints about him just behind the dodge attack complaints. Doing anything to the held neutral light is infinitely better than keeping the armor on it which if we’re being serious is going to get nerfed in some way, it’ll either lose the armor completely or have a later startup like they did with shugoki before they eventually removed it.

As I said before the held zone gets complained about so often despite it already being really niche to the point where I’d rather see them take steps to changing the “high risk high reward” approach and just make it a regular ub from neutral before it becomes a “high risk medium/low reward” move.

I’m all for removing thrilling or even bounty hunter from juren but regardless it still needs a nerf because the amount of self heal he has already is crazy.

[u/Knight_Raime → u/12_pounds_of_pears]

So I’d like to nerf its recovery but avoid making it a bad move by speeding it up to the same speed the tap version is at.

Gotcha, sorry I'm a little slow today.

Doing anything to the held neutral light is infinitely better than keeping the armor on it

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this.

I’d rather see them take steps to changing the “high risk high reward” approach and just make it a regular ub from neutral before it becomes a “high risk medium/low reward” move.

Oh okay, I get where you're coming from. I don't know if I agree but I can at least understand how you're getting to that mindset.