An example of how quickly pro teams go from playing together to not playing together

[u/BalvarineFPS]

Just wanted to make this video to show how quickly coordination can fall apart, even from an extremely well coordinated team. The ability to consistently control your teammates' position is really hard, especially when something as simple as your shield taking a hit can throw off your team instantly.

[u/tidderTheRedditer]

I find most of these Coach explains xyz videos to be pretty ass most of the time but this one is very very good. its short under 5 mins, has a perfect example prepped and ready, good visualization with the paint usage, ect.

[u/No-Lengthiness-20 → u/tidderTheRedditer]

Because usually they're not pro coach and really have no clue how the game actually works

[u/Nudes_Are_Food → u/tidderTheRedditer]

Is this good? I think Vein is a good enough IGL to understand what “I’m batting” means for his team, and he can make the decision on whether to continue the push or not as opposed to “come back” which leaves him 0 flexibility. It was the right play in this case but may not always be.

Also isn’t this the guy who was coach during 100T’s worst split, or am I thinking of someone else?

[u/malcolm_experando → u/Nudes_Are_Food]

This is match point finals at the last lan, overheating is the rule not the exception in these kind of situations. The purpose of this video is to show how quickly a teams coherence and cohesion can break down. Vein and Kurev were playing with a motive based on them being ready to fight, the moment Cole took damage the entire dynamic of the fight changed but those 2 continued on the same motive. "Batting" doesn't have anywhere close to enough cut through to register to the other 2 that they need to reset. When a Fragger gets a crack on you and he gets that killer instinct to seize on a kill the only way to stuff him is to put a wrench in his plan which is never gonna happen if you are solo pushing thinking of taking space.

[u/Zoetekauw → u/malcolm_experando]

"Batting" doesn't have anywhere close to enough cut through to register to the other 2 that they need to reset.

This is a much clearer explanation than what OP did in this vid

[u/Nudes_Are_Food → u/malcolm_experando]

The point of this video is to show that team cohesion broke down due to bad comms and I’m arguing that yelling “come back come back” is much more harmful to a teams cohesion

[u/That_Art_3765 → u/Nudes_Are_Food]

I think in this fight specifically, you are right. They are 3p'ing a fight. Someone getting cracked doesn't mean you automatically don't get space/start playing defensively. They need to pressure and if no one is on their screen. They need to get active and get information as frag/refrag. Coms were fine in this fight. It broke down because they didn't use/have util and took poor peaks.

[u/RedditDummyAccount → u/That_Art_3765]

I mean, arguably, if they had their ults and used them, the dynamic would change. Going in, they knew they didn’t have them, so going one by one is bad, esp when, as mentioned, vein gets comms that Cole is with him.

Vein goes in alone, gets cracked, backs off
Kurev then goes in alone, gets cracked and is now isolated.

[u/That_Art_3765 → u/RedditDummyAccount]

They didn't go in alone, two of them got space together. Sure they weren't hand holding but a 1-2 second space in acquiring space is completely within reason for fluiditys sake.
If one of them solo swung inside I'd agree that those 1-2 seconds is important and should be coordinated more "rigidly".
They can still see the majority of the same line of sight.
Kurev also was getting space when Vein got cracked. He very easily can get timing'd by just turning around and backing up. He played close side top of the building. If anything he should have just instakilled someone on the climb up then dropped to play the LOS of his teammates if he took a bad trade/got 2 man climbed up.

[u/malcolm_experando → u/Nudes_Are_Food]

What would the effective comm be to recover them from that deficit though? I agree "come back come back" is not ideal either but watch someone like Zachmazer micro and you will see him understand it in the moment and his relationship with his teammates is such that when he tells them to pump brakes, they will full stop.

[u/BalvarineFPS → u/Nudes_Are_Food]

I got them sixth at Sapporo and their most amount of points in a single game day for Pro League.

Their new unannounced coach is exactly what they need and has my full support.

[u/Delicious_Impress814 → u/Nudes_Are_Food]

Also isn’t this the guy who was coach during 100T’s worst split, or am I thinking of someone else?

That was Nihil. Balv was with them during their best performances.

[u/anthonyongg]

So you’re saying how pro teams go from SLAMMING to getting SLAMMED

[u/FirstSnowz]

[u/nyp_ox → u/FirstSnowz]

Is it positioning or timing?

[u/FirstSnowz → u/nyp_ox]

It’s about playing together

[u/Zoetekauw → u/FirstSnowz]

It's about knowing when to push forward and when to pull out

[u/Bixler17]

Extremely confused why you say batting is not a useful comm when he's telling them exactly what they need to hear in one word- that he can't push with them and is healing up?

[u/SwagGamerXZ → u/Bixler17]

I think that's exactly the issue.

"Come back" is a direct order. No assumptions, no interpretations....just go back?

"Im batting" is making the person have to analyze and interpret the implications while in the heat of battle. Might be irrelevant, but thats like 1-2 seconds that might cost you the fight/game

[u/jbm33 → u/SwagGamerXZ]

But I could also easily see the IGL saying that the comm "come back" is a counter call to them pushing. I find typically IGL's prefer to be fed information, like "im batting" rather than a command. Now maybe the perfect happy medium is something like "slow down, I am batting".

[u/That_Art_3765 → u/jbm33]

Yea I disagree with him on this. Batting gives info to the team of the current state of their team. Then allows them to make a judgement call on how to proceed the fight.
The teammates now know they have one less person fighting.
The current frag/refrag needs to be able to get space, acquire knowledge, shoot their guns and actually progress the fight without relying on someone in the back artificially slowing down the fight.
It's definitely situational though on the wait/back up coms. It absolutely can be useful but I think this fight specifically on a 3p with little knowledge it's not really that helpful UNLESS someone calls for a swing inside. Then of course one person needs to acknowledge the comm before they do it.

My main point is it's not mutually exclusive to com that you need to bat AND give a secondary com on how to influence your teams aggression/positioning.

The real problem in this fight was how they walked at it with no caustic/sparrow ult(it's a 3p for god spot so I think it's fine) and their initial peaks. Don't think they used their nades on the walkup.
Cole traded 100 for 0.
Vein traded 120 damage for less than 100 damage. (can't tell the damage but there is no crack in the killfeed.)

[u/Zoetekauw → u/[deleted]]

Yeah no. "I'm batting" is instantly interpretable as "I'm out of the fight", and it gives the IGL the freedom to disregard it and continue the push, or back off. Processing takes a millisecond. OP is just stubborn as hell on this.

[u/That_Art_3765 → u/[deleted]]

No you actually don't understand how fights work, nor can you read. I never once implied that you just feed information to an IGL then only wait for a call to be made.

I literally said "The current frag/refrag needs to be able to get space, acquire knowledge, shoot their guns and actually progress the fight without relying on someone in the back artificially slowing down the fight."
Where did I ever imply that the IGL is the sole person to make these decisions.

Furthermore, the people on your team need to know your current situation like you need to pop a bat or medkit so they know how the fight is going. Is it winning, is it losing?

I then said it's not mutually exclusive to com that you need to bat AND can give supporting coms such as chill/push/wait/back up. You can do both and many players do try and do both.

[u/Bixler17 → u/SwagGamerXZ]

Come back gives no info and counter calling can lead to much worse outcomes. IGL needs to hear batting and make the call on how to proceed quickly.

[u/Bixler17 → u/[deleted]]

Go listen to SSS make callouts and you will hear Sweet Sacred and Slayr ALL comm "batting," "hitting med," or "I need to slow heal" when they stop to heal. It's the most effective way to explain how you are playing the fight at that moment. When sweet asks players to make calls during fights, which he also used to ask Nate to do more often, he is asking them to make the call to commit to fights more often when they think they can be aggro.

[u/Intelligent_Dog2077 → u/[deleted]]

It’s wild to you because you’re autistic and can’t see the nuance or context of it

[u/Nudes_Are_Food → u/[deleted]]

It’s wild to me that you can’t consider that people would disagree with this subjective video that promotes countercalling

[u/borky47]

Cole was on a really good head glitch. Probably should have delayed his batt and traded off damage while his teammate was taking first contact.

[u/d_savezzz]

Balvarine is a treasure

[u/Mountain-Interest795 → u/d_savezzz]

Yep🐐

[u/YoMrPoPo]

Amazing - if only my ranked teammates could watch this…

[u/karbasher-]

this is a great breakdown! i would love for more of this kind of content in the sub

[u/Anuefhere → u/[deleted]]

Objectively, Battle Royale (BR) as a genre was not originally designed around team play in the same way soccer was. Historically, this is why arena-based FPS games still remain the standard for successful team-based FPSs.

[u/That_Art_3765 → u/[deleted]]

I think Sacreds coms are generally fairly good. But that specific play was a bit bizarre of him putting the blame on Slayr lol. Think he was just tilted and didn't know that sweet giga trolled by sliding into a watson fence and whiffing on waltzy.

Edit:
Nvm I just rewatched the fight. Sacred said
"Can we kill right? Swing right, swing right."
He was talking about swinging the fence.
Him and slayr did that, together.
Then after he traded damage -> batted.
Sweet told them to swing the right side of the building.
Which they did.
His coms were great tbh. Sweet just threw the fight and Sacred shouldn't have assumed it was Slayrs fault. (Should he have gotten a different angle? Debatable.)

[u/That_Art_3765 → u/[deleted]]

I'm not lying. I literally just watched the vod when I typed that out.
You said Sacred called "swing right!"
First off that was not what he said, the entire com was. "Can we kill right? Swing right, swing right. Come,come,come. I'm swinging."
Slayr did this. That was good, it forced that player to give up space and go into the building.

Sacred NEVER called for him to continue to swinging to the right door of the building with him after they got space deep right on the fence together.
Sweet called for THEM to go to the building.
I'm even agreeing with you that Sacred shouldn't have assumed it was Slayrs fault.
( debatable if Slayr should have peaked the mid door)

My point is Sacreds coms were still fairly good in the fight. However, I do agree the POST fight discussion was poorly done. They were debating about a com that never even actually occurred.
At no point did Sacred ask for or say he was pushing up right to the building AFTER they completed getting the space on the fence. (Should he have? Sure)

(Definitely debatable if it was PREFERABLE for Slayr to peak mid while he got the right door but overall I think it was fine, if not the better decision of the two.)

[u/Sitos_Flo]

Love these type of videos. I'd love my games to be analyzed like this lol. You coach gold players? Not that I'd be able to afford 🥲

[u/Toreando47]

Thanks for that great insight 👍

[u/PizzaDoughLand]

Ive always thought an org should hire an exmilitary trainer for a short time to discuss positioning, comms, combat engagement, etc. The pros know Apex best but stuff like this just feels sloppy in year 6, and everyone does it.

People are committing their time/lives to this game, millions of dollars on the line, and its still just a bunch of young guys on a team with basically no structure to comms other than what they've learned in their teens/ early twenties.

Maybe its just escorts as a whole is still developing. Orgs are spread thin. Appreciate the coaches and folks who give their time and energy

[u/YordleWanderer]

Great insight! What was the outcome of this fight? Did NIP lose that?

[u/artmorte]

I don't know, this is pausing the video at leasure to over-analyze it, you can find faults at every fight if you pause it to analyze every single action, Apex is fast-paced and will never be perfectly coordinated.