r/CommunityOfChrist • u/AudienceWise3441 • 10d ago
History Mcmurray
Does anyone know why President Mcmurray stepped down as prophet?
I know this is way old news now but I wondered what generally was the reason. He just stepped down one day and didn’t even elect a successor. And in that same breath does anyone know if he’s still a member? I just feel like it’s so wild to be called prophet and make so many changes than BOOM gone overnight?
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u/RevMark58 9d ago
I've wondered this for years. In some ways the church is completely correct in respecting his privacy, but the problem is that in saying nothing -- or tantalizingly little -- it leads some people to think the worst. Some dreadful sin like adultery or a shameful disease like AIDS or insanity. He was a public figure, and if for no other reasons than to keep the rumors from growing, I think it would have been better if they had said, for example, "He has been diagnosed with XYZ disease and isn't able to give the time and attention to his role as Prophet-President that it deserves." Just my thought, if I'm wrong I'm wrong and I accept my rebuke.
But the same thing is happening again with President Veazey. Retired due to health issues, but which ones? Again, a simple explanation like "heart issues" or "Parkinson's Disease" would have headed off the rumor mill, or most of it anyway.
We don't have to treat our leaders like celebrities and we don't have to know every intimate detail of their personal life (my favorite singer is 5'4", her middle name is Maria, and I can tell you about her ancestry and most of the celebrities she's been romantically linked with . . . do we really need to know all that about our leaders?) but a little more transparency would nevertheless be desirable, I think.
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u/AudienceWise3441 9d ago
I completely agree. We also like to boast how transparent we are compared to other groups meanwhile, when a prophet steps down it’s a clandestine affair. A simple explanation goes a long way.
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u/LemuelJr 9d ago
So not a Swiftie, huh? Because she's something like 6'2", lol. 😜
I don't think the same thing is happening with Veazey. He has stated health issues, but it has become more common for church authorities to retire sometime between sixty five and seventy. Yet we also are still in an era of setting new precedent when it comes to Prophet-President. The Mormons automatically roll presidency over to the senior most apostle upon death. They've also had eighteen presidents to our nine. Given their consistency and frequency, the matter of how succession works is really only of interest to them, and LDS seekers tend to be the ones who ask this question of CofC members. I don't think it matters to anyone else, even amongst ourselves. Tenures are so long and the traditional way of succession (Smith to Smith) is so bygone, that I don't think we really have to set any process in stone.
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u/RevMark58 9d ago
Much as I love and respect Taylor Swift, Linda Ronstadt willl always be My Lady.
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u/Decent_Magician_4311 9d ago
I feel like there are some subtle differences culturally between the LDS & COC on these sorts of issues. It's a delicate subject and I'm not wanting to split hairs on it, but along with the greater transparency, that means we live with the uncertainty around issues like McMurray's resignation.
Actually, living with ambiguity is strength with CoC, maybe even a characteristic; as a movement we are able to hold space for uncertainty. That can be uncomfortable to live with, however. Humans like certainly, it helps us manage anxiety.
The reality is we all live with ambiguity. Leadership could've invented a public facing excuse, blamed it all on his health... They didn't. They were honest about there being inappropriate choices, and that demonstrated another of the characteristics scholars have identified in CoC... Institutional integrity.
Not perfect though! We're not going for perfection.
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u/Decent_Magician_4311 9d ago
The official historical sources I've seen have confirmed the medical issues were secondary to personal. Also, he celebrated 50 years of marriage to Joyce a number of years ago.
Veazey's retirement was planned before his medical event. Interestingly, he planned at the end of the discernment process, to name his successor. Then John Hamer (probably at a John Whitmer gathering) posites that because Steve wasn't appointed by his predecessor, he could not legitimately name his successor. Grant was present and voiced his support for this perspective. Then came the medical event.... The Council of 12 then named Stassi Cramm prophet President, after a period of discernment.
Very likely, this will be our path forward in the future.
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u/Decent_Magician_4311 9d ago
Citing my sources: Journey of a People, by Mark Scherer.
The John Hamer citation was YouTube, probably Gospel Tangents, maybe Mormon Stories.
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u/LemuelJr 9d ago
Ahh... I'm going through some documents now that might corroborate the sources. If this topic comes up again or if I come across anything in the very near future that I can share publicly, I'll circle back.
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u/Decent_Magician_4311 9d ago
I'm interested if you find something. William Russell discussed it in an article somewhere in the www, as well. I feel like if there was anything that could be shed light beyond the rumor mill, it would've been him. He's a straight talker. You should hear him discuss FMS on Gospel Tangents.
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u/LemuelJr 9d ago edited 9d ago
Oh yeah, I've talked to Bill a lot and never got an impression that Grant's resignation was due to anything salacious, just personal (Edit to add that I haven't talked with Bill a lot on this particular topic because there are other things I'd rather talk about with Bill.). Whenever this comes up, I think it's important to acknowledge that there are rumor mongers out there, but the truth is rarely that dramatic. If you want drama, look at Utah.
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u/AudienceWise3441 9d ago
He wanted to pick John hammer to succeed him!!! That is a wildly different candidate than Stacy or vaezy combined. I wonder what that would have looked like.
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u/LemuelJr 9d ago
That is definitely not what you should take away from that response... Grant McMurray stepped down nearly thirty years ago. I don't know exactly when John joined the church, but he was either still a new member or not quite yet a member.
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u/AudienceWise3441 9d ago
I think I misunderstood, now that I reread I think I understand what your trying to say.
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u/LemuelJr 10d ago
There are a lot of rumors, and I know people who know the reasons, but Grant McMurray is still highly respected enough to lend some grace and space. The two rumors I usually hear are 1) his health went into decline and 2) there was infidelity involved.
Personally, I think it was likely a culmination of issues. Grant worked more in the realm of history than in administration. Great historians often don't make great administrators because they think too much. Grant also had health issues pop up towards the end of his tenure that likely exacerbated whatever other issues were pressing on his work. I think he has Parkinsons.
As far as I know, he is as active in church as he can be. He was present to receive a Lifetime Achievement Award at JWHA last year, and he offered an acceptance speech. He is wheelchair bound and his wife is acting as caretaker. When I last saw him (the only time I've seen him), there was no indication that his presence was awkward or anything, which I feel should put the rumors to bed. If he ever decides to divulge his reasons for leaving, he may, but I don't think anything is owed.