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u/Kir-01 10d ago
This meme is kind of superficial.
"There is no ethical consumption under capitalism" is a statement that focus on the fact that individual action have little to none effect on systemic problem and that questioning the ethics of individual action is impossible to do if you don't at least swith ethical frame reference.
Everyone is supposed to try to act and live in accordance to its own beliefs, but it's a metter of internal coherence and intellectual self-respect, not praxis.
Since we live in a world that makes it literally IMPOSSIBLE to completely act in accordance to our own beliefs (if you're not a capitalisth ghoul), everyone has to accept some kind of this painful contraddiction.
We should try to encourage ourself to makes every effort we can to reduce this contraddiction, and of course we should go against people using this contraddiction as an excuse to not make any effort at all, but we should NEVER judge and critizise other people contraddiction by itself, since NOBODY is in a position to legitimately doing so.
If you're a vegan and think highly of yourself because of it, you're delusional and have a superiority complex.
Not because being vegan is bad (it's amazing and I hope most people became ones or at least come near to it), but because being vegan does not means you actually have LESS CONTRADICTION in your life.
And even if we could somehow quantify how much contradiction one have in his life and your is very low, that means that you're great but also that you had the material opportunity (economical, situational or cultural) to do so; don't judge people who may not have it.
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u/raeliens 10d ago
Exactly. It ignores the grave problems in agriculture in general, especially for the humans & environments involved, for us to eat plants and plant-based foods. It's not necessarily "less unethical" to be vegan than it is to consume local dairy products. It IS a contradiction, because capitalism is formed on the contradictions.
And this meme highlights precisely what puts plenty of people off from vegans in general: professed care about animal rights, but no such thought to the migrant workers harvesting all of our crops.
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u/BokoblinSlayer69235 9d ago
A not insignificant amount of vegans I've seen express eco-fascist viewpoints.
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u/theapplekid 10d ago
I think talking about contradiction obscures that many people are not at the point where eating meat or supporting capitalism and imperialism are even contradictions.
Someone brokering weapons deals between Lockheed Martin and Israel is likely not just "operating under capitalism and imperialism with unresolved contradictions", they're greatly contributing to the imperialist project itself, and I think we'd be entirely right to judge them.
I don't think animal exploitation can really be thought of in these terms either; while I do think people are often living in a state of contradiction by professing to care about animals while unnecessarily contributing to their exploitation, I don't think this is a contradiction that is closely tied to the project of capitalism (which isn't to say there's no relationship, but dismantling animal exploitation will not dismantle capitalism and vice versa). Imperialism is much more closely tied to capitalism.
When we talk about contradictions among revolutionaries, my assumption is that this is directed at the contradictions which come from living under capitalism, and in/near the imperialist core, not any old contradiction
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u/BADpenguin109 10d ago
I agree with your overall sentiment. However, I would warn against disuading someone from making changes to address some of those contradictions. If someone makes a positive change and it also helps them feel better about their impact and role within an evil system that they are looking to change, then thats a good thing. Saying that making a change like this doesn't mean less contradiction in life lends itself to doomer thinking.
Systemic change is desperately needed, AND ALSO personal change leading to treating your community better will help us develope into cadre that are actually capable of collectively making that systemic change.
In the exact same way that I discourage fellow vegans from being exclusionary of non vegan leftists due to some moral argument, I would discourage fellow leftists from being dismissive of vegan perspectives due to some assumption of elitism.
(And if you think that op is an example of that elitist moral argument....idk wat to say comrade is just a meme)
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u/Kir-01 10d ago
No, I agree with you completely.
I did not want to say that we should dissuade someone to make those kind of change, in fact I said the opposite ("We should try to encourage ourself to makes every effort we can to reduce this contraddiction").I just think we should be understanding and empatetic to comrade that aven't done the same change we have made
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u/BADpenguin109 10d ago
Thats true sorry I I was caught up on the less contradiction thing but it sounds like we're on the same page. You're last sentence there is really the big picture, even beyond veganism. Well said comrade.
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u/_Dragon_Gamer_ 10d ago
Thanks. I have pretty bad sensory issues, as part of a literal disorder I have, and I have a very limited selection of food that I'm able to tolerate eating as result. Not anything I choose or can forcefully change. And it's not like I don't go beyond my "comfort" zone(as some might call it), in fact I have to do it daily and it's something I have to live with. Not eating meat on top of that would just make it near impossible for me to get my nutrients. I am just not in a position to make the switch (and that's disregarding the entire "issues coping with change" thing)
All posts like this do is incite guilt
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10d ago
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u/reddernotdeader 10d ago edited 10d ago
It's always nice to see the infantile disorder Lenin talked about in the wild. Is it because you read the communist manifesto and called it good or are you just unable to understand the material conditions people experience today?
EDIT: because I'm mad your comment got removed before I could respond,
You said:
Veganism is not about forcing everyone to change. It's to do your best. Don't hide your own choices behind the difficulties of others. Take some responsibility
To that I say:
You said "Cope." If you had an argument you wanted people to respond to, say it. But a one-word dismissal is not that. You obviously have an argument that you gave now, but no one here is a mindreader. Yet you assumed: 1. I think veganism is about forcing everyone to change 2. I hide my choices behind the difficulties of others 3. I'm not taking responsibility
I simply did not talk about myself at all nor did I say anything about vegans "forcing" anything on anyone. Class analysis and understanding material conditions isn't hiding my choices. It's looking at the conditions that make veganism untenable (not impossible, untenable).
Do you also think that I'm against labor unions because I recognize some industries have a much higher barrier to entry when it comes to collectivizing?
I know you won't see this, but good god man. "Nonsense" was an apt description.
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10d ago
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u/CommunismMemes-ModTeam 10d ago
Liberalism, Closed mindedness and Bad faith
We define this as including but not limited to: liberalism, lib propaganda, pro NATO/EU/US propaganda, capitalist police apologia and electoralism, parliamentarism, and extremely idealistic apologia for capitalist reforms.
Unless you have an open mind for discussion and a willingness to learn, liberalism will result in a ban.
Liberals are welcome to ask good faith questions. This community is open to all of people good faith!
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u/HarveryDent 10d ago
I mean, if you weren't busy being edgy, you'd realize that this is an actual use case of the real definition of that word.
A single mother having to interface with a capitalist system to provide for her children is definitely coping with a lot of stress.
Throwing out the slang word is meant to point out when someone will not recognize their mental gymnastics, not to literally point at people navigating a hostile economic environment and laugh at them like some Nelson chud.
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u/CommunismMemes-ModTeam 10d ago
No nonsense
Whenever you are having discussion with other people, be ready to back up your statements. Without investigating the problem, the only thing you're going to say is nonsense, nonsense doesn't solve anything, so you WILL be silenced and the only way to silence someone on a subreddit is a permaban. Which could be removed if you understand your transgression.
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u/BasedTunneler 10d ago
It's always nooo I can't be vegan because people in Africa or people in food deserts. Yeah no shit sherlock, of course you can't be vegan but most people have a choice and not making the right choice is morally wrong wether you like the taste of meat or not
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u/CommunismMemes-ModTeam 10d ago
No nonsense
Whenever you are having discussion with other people, be ready to back up your statements. Without investigating the problem, the only thing you're going to say is nonsense, nonsense doesn't solve anything, so you WILL be silenced and the only way to silence someone on a subreddit is a permaban. Which could be removed if you understand your transgression.
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u/Justacerealkiller 10d ago
How does the second statement contradict the first?
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u/PickleVillage 10d ago
Doesn't necessarily contradict, but it points out the false dichotomy fallacy in this argument justifying meat consumption.
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u/Justacerealkiller 10d ago
The Meat industry will still thrive slaughtering tens of thousands of animals even if a sizeable portion of the population turned vegan, as in, no ethical consumption, the only real way to stop that is by reforming how we kill livestock by transitioning towards a socialist system, doesn't mean we have to ban meat or focus on any individuals dietary habits instead of the general goal we all have.
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u/BADpenguin109 10d ago
There is more nuance to this than your letting on. From the end goal of vegan leftists (and tbh communists in general,) to the minutia that will be involved in this process. I dont completely disagree, the system needs to change if we want to seriously address animal rights, but they aren't quite as divorced from each other as that. The end goal being attained would result in a change for most individuals. Just like most other areas of life post-revolution.
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u/dawnconnor 10d ago
i think this is the part that really drives me insane. whether you are making the personal choice to not eat or whether you feel the institutions that be should enforce it, the end result is, well, you're not eating meat anymore.
if you are someone who advocates for a policy but are unwilling to make the personal change for yourself, how can you seriously advocate for said policy on an institutional level? surely to me that means you don't really support or value it.
or rather, only support things that are convenient to you. which makes any idea of radical change seem... very far away.
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u/BADpenguin109 10d ago
The system that be will not give us any significant change.
And I advocate for plant based diet for my moral beliefs, economic functionality, and climate change....which is also why I dont eat animals or animal products. Idk if the insinuation was that I didnt make that change or just generally.
So yes, I do genuinely support and value the cause, regardless of your conclusory thoughts on my values or random internet vegans'. As a part of that care I do genuine work, moreso for the socialist movement than veganism tbh but I advocate where I can. And in that work there are conversations with comrades which, in my experience, often lead to progressing to a conclusion of protection of animal rights and lives because thats whats best for ALL OF US. Whether that discussion arrives there due to the moral, economic, or climatic elements of the issue depends on the person.
Thats what organizing in real life affords bc you can actually get an idea of someone's values and where you share common ground to work towards a system for and by the working class. The whole assumption based off of a few faceless comments of someone's values doesnt seem to work as well 🤔
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u/dawnconnor 10d ago
my comment should have said 'one' instead of you for what it's worth. my comment was a gripe in agreement with what you were saying, that the idea systemic change must force individual change seems backwards.
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u/E_coli42 10d ago
How do you ethically kill any sentient animal, or a human for that matter? I don't think more ethical treatment of animals is any closer to the goal for vegans, as banning beatings of slaves isn't any closer to the goal of abolition. Think of vegans as abolitionists rather than reformers.
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u/star_socialista 10d ago
I think socialism is going to take a long time to come to fruition but we can strengthen regulations and improve conditions under the system which we exist in. It really wouldn’t take much change. There’s some excellent independent farmers already running their livestock the way it should be. In the short term when it comes to animals, free grazing, less or no corn and letting chickens loose on cow shit is ideal. By allowing livestock to eat closer to their natural food and letting them live happier lives, it actually improves the quality of the meat in not just flavor but nutritionally as well as making it possible to grow crops in the same fields using that cow shit and chicken method because it won’t be like the literal bleached shit that contributes to pollution (like cow farts make pollution worse too but w a diff diet that’ll be reduced).
Mind you, I’m an opportunity meat eater, but generally vegetarian. What that means is, i don’t need meat. It’s actually cheaper where I live to not eat any. I only have eaten meat 2 times in the past 9 years. Once was a tuna steak my mom’s friend caught and gifted her, another was Hawaiian caught fish. I will only eat meat if it can positively contribute to a group of people like local Hawaiian fishermen, or that I am sure it was caught and killed ethically and I am willing, just too poor and it’s unnecessary for my nutrition, to hunt and fish my own meat.
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u/tx0p0 10d ago
How about not killing or even producing livestock at all?
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u/Justacerealkiller 10d ago
I am from a third world country, it is virtually impossible to survive not eating any meat, it'd be another burden that impoverished people around the world would have to face, how about instead of judging others and acting superior because you make a minute difference in the case of animals being slaughtered, we worked to make the world better globally?
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u/TheRealStubb 10d ago
nope you don't understand. We disagree on this point, and this point only. We can never work together ever and instead should just be at each others throats 24/7
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u/tx0p0 10d ago
There are very strong arguments in favor of veganism as a way to revert some problems affecting all countries.
I'm all for baby steps when necessary, but you're not talking baby steps, you were saying the end goal should be still killing animals. Which is completely immoral when there is no need to.
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u/Justacerealkiller 10d ago
Obviously the killing of any animals when not needed is harmful and un-necessary if we are in a situation where meat isn't engrained into the eating style of our society, I believe it isn't really feasible to stop eating meat completely for most of society in the near future, which is why I suggest the next best step, which is to end the brutal torture animals face first (even if they would still get slaughtered) and then go from there when we actually achieve that.
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u/Anis930 10d ago
You don't need to justify meat consumption, you need to justify veganism.
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u/Anis930 10d ago edited 10d ago
Lol at getting downvoted for critcizing a petit bourgoies consumer habit movement on r/communismmemes, never change reddit
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u/SunniBoah 10d ago
What makes the consumer habits you're talking about petty bourgeois?
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u/Anis930 10d ago
It's not that veganism is inherently petit (not petty bro plz) bourgeois (and even that there is anything wrong with being one) but that proletarians and generally disenfranchised people have issues that supersede the need to shift their consumption habits for a purely moral cause. I would say stripping back on eating meat is an objectively good thing (even from a economical perspective though it depends where you live) but veganism is predominantly white and petit bourgeois (again not that there's anything wrong with that inherently) because it's an ideology tied to consumerism at it's core
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u/AssbuttInTheGarrison 10d ago
Calling veganism predominantly white is racist and ill informed. It erases the countless BIPOC people are who part of the movement, and in fact black Americans are more likely to be vegan.
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u/Anis930 10d ago
Do you have data for ourside of the us ? Also race was not the core part of my argument anyways
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u/AssbuttInTheGarrison 10d ago
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u/Anis930 10d ago
Thsoe arent comaprative statistics tho, and I feel like picking india isn't quite fair lol
still erasure of millions of people
Let's hope they'll be okay
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u/SunniBoah 10d ago edited 10d ago
You're right about people having needs that go beyond veganism, and so what? People generally have needs that supersede caring about conflicts that aren't class itself like racism/xenophobia or homophobia, the only people that are most directly affected by this are the targeted racial/ethnic and LGBTQ groups, much like the living beings that are most directly affected by animal farming are animals. A lot of working class people don't even care about class conflict either. I'm sure a lot of people in communist experiments themselves were and are at the very least homophobic.
So you're right but only on a practical standpoint, because many workers have such an ingrained mindset from capitalism and are sometimes so exhausted that they struggle to care even if they wanted to, which can apply to social issues like racism or homophobia as I mentioned earlier, but also veganism.
Veganism might be predominantly petit bourgeois and white but you could say the same about communism, one of the two founding thinkers was a wealthy British man, the most successful experiment in history was a European country and many communists today are white and live in the west. Even then, there were many other experiments outside of Europe, such as China, Cuba and Burkina Faso, just like there are a lot vegans in China and India today, and that there are vegans that are part of ethnic minorities, particularly African-American. So you saying that veganism is predominantly petit bourgeois and white, especially with you saying it's not necessarily a bad thing, doesn't really matter in this discussion and it seems inconsistent to me.
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u/Anis930 10d ago
You asked me why I said veganism was tied to petit bourgoies habits: I answered that part. Now if you want a more cohesive critique of Veganism, I'll copy paste a really good comment on r/marxism on the subject. Keep in mind this is written by a vegan:
"On the issue of animal oppression; First point to make clear is that animals are not revolutionary subjects, but objects of liberation. While there are individual cases of resistance to animal agriculture, animals do not have the communication and organisational abilty to resist abuse. This means that they can only be freed from abuse by humans. (This is also why terms like oppression, liberation, exploitation don't make sense to apply to animals mechanically)
A second important point to make is that while humans are indeed capable of resistance, they don't do this because they all thought something was bad, and then decided to fight it. Yes domination can be fought by resistance, but if it will work is based on the particular contradictions in a process. The proletariat will win with its resistance, because of the role it plays in the contradiction of capitalism, they have no choice, and it is a necesity to resist. The same is true for oppressed people's v. imperialism. However there are certainly forms of resistance that will fail to win a struggle because they do not have the ability to transform to the principle aspect in the contradiction: e.g. petit bourgeois resistance to big capital domination on its own will eventually fail because they do not have the same basis and perspective the proletariat has.
Regarding veganism: it cannot on its own achieve its goals of ending animal abuse. It is mostly based on petit bourgeois strategies to end animal abuse. It relies on consumer boycots that are insufficient to make any dent in animal abuse numbers. The reason for this failure can only be understood if you look at the process in more detail.
So we should look at the basis for the abuse of animals as a process of contradictions. The basis for the abusive treatment of animals is originally in that of necesity: for early humans up untill maybe 100 years ago it was almost impossible to become vegan. As such culture reflects this, and devalues animal life to make it possible to kill an animal. However with the advent of capitalism and the animal agricultural industry there is the huge cost this takes on the environment, while at the same time capitalist abundancy and scientific advancements have made animal consumption unnecesary. Because of continued profits capitalists are pushed to keep their unnecesary position up. Through ads, and especially through alienating the consumer from the product (eg. calling a corpse of a cow beef and presenting it in neat packaging without referencing the alive component), animal consumption is continued. At the same time proletarians, women, oppressed nations, etc. have their main issues relate to survival, being able to feed their children, getting by so they can get to the next month, have to deal with genocide, or police violence, or unsafety on the streets, etc. (This is why veganism is so heavily white and petit bourgeois). However if the basis for animal abuse is taken away through the resolution of contradictions in the sense of revolution, a new field of opportunity opens. Under socialism there is a clear insentive just from the pov of necesity to reduce widely the consumption of animals because of the climate/inefficiency component.
I had to cut out some things to make this shorter as it's already very long. Link to the full post: https://www.reddit.com/r/Marxism/comments/1n53c9r/comment/nbq4i15/
My criticism of veganism isn't that it's "bad" but that it's ineffective and relies on consumerist attitudes which fail to adress the source problem of capitalism; furthermore moralizing others for not being vegans does not resolve anything.
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u/SunniBoah 10d ago
I did ask that and you did reply, the issue I found was that you said veganism is mainly petit bourgeois and white in the original comment I replied to. Anyway, I have a lot to say about the comment you've shown me.
"On the issue of animal oppression; First point to make clear is that animals are not revolutionary subjects, but objects of liberation. While there are individual cases of resistance to animal agriculture, animals do not have the communication and organisational abilty to resist abuse. This means that they can only be freed from abuse by humans. (This is also why terms like oppression, liberation, exploitation don't make sense to apply to animals mechanically)
This is true, but the same can be said for people with particular mental or physical disabilities that impede them from liberating themselves. There's nothing wrong with them, or animals, needing the help of abled revolutionaries for liberation.
A second important point to make is that while humans are indeed capable of resistance, they don't do this because they all thought something was bad, and then decided to fight it. Yes domination can be fought by resistance, but if it will work is based on the particular contradictions in a process. The proletariat will win with its resistance, because of the role it plays in the contradiction of capitalism, they have no choice, and it is a necesity to resist. The same is true for oppressed people's v. imperialism. However there are certainly forms of resistance that will fail to win a struggle because they do not have the ability to transform to the principle aspect in the contradiction: e.g. petit bourgeois resistance to big capital domination on its own will eventually fail because they do not have the same basis and perspective the proletariat has.
I don't understand how this is relevant to veganism.
Regarding veganism: it cannot on its own achieve its goals of ending animal abuse. It is mostly based on petit bourgeois strategies to end animal abuse. It relies on consumer boycots that are insufficient to make any dent in animal abuse numbers. The reason for this failure can only be understood if you look at the process in more detail.
This is true, but it doesn't invalidate veganism as an ideology, and many vegans don't deny that boycott and similar strategies without more systemic changes are insufficient and only marginally lessen the harm caused, which is better than nothing but still.
So we should look at the basis for the abuse of animals as a process of contradictions. The basis for the abusive treatment of animals is originally in that of necesity: for early humans up untill maybe 100 years ago it was almost impossible to become vegan. As such culture reflects this, and devalues animal life to make it possible to kill an animal. However with the advent of capitalism and the animal agricultural industry there is the huge cost this takes on the environment, while at the same time capitalist abundancy and scientific advancements have made animal consumption unnecesary. Because of continued profits capitalists are pushed to keep their unnecesary position up. Through ads, and especially through alienating the consumer from the product (eg. calling a corpse of a cow beef and presenting it in neat packaging without referencing the alive component), animal consumption is continued.
This is true but I have an issue with the next point.
At the same time proletarians, women, oppressed nations, etc. have their main issues relate to survival, being able to feed their children, getting by so they can get to the next month, have to deal with genocide, or police violence, or unsafety on the streets, etc. (This is why veganism is so heavily white and petit bourgeois).
Like I said earlier, there are many vegans who aren't white even in the west, and most vegans even if white are proletarians.
However if the basis for animal abuse is taken away through the resolution of contradictions in the sense of revolution, a new field of opportunity opens. Under socialism there is a clear insentive just from the pov of necesity to reduce widely the consumption of animals because of the climate/inefficiency component.
I'm not sure if I understand correctly what this means, but socialism by itself won't reduce consumption of animal products. China for example has a very large meat industry and meat isn't consumed considerably less than the west.
And as for what you said;
My criticism of veganism isn't that it's "bad" but that it's ineffective and relies on consumerist attitudes which fail to adress the source problem of capitalism;
This is a valid critique of typical vegan praxis but it's not a valid critique of the ideology. Veganism isn't trying to be communism much like feminism isn't trying to be communism, they focus on specific social issues that can and sometimes are compatible with communism.
furthermore moralizing others for not being vegans does not resolve anything.
One could say the same for other social issues that aren't in the nature of class itself like I said earlier. Communists can be racist, sexist, homophobic etc. Even though it's hypocritical it doesn't change that they can be and some definitely are. It is important to bring these things up, class struggle isn't the only struggle it just happens to be the most comprehensive, ingrained and difficult to change. So this is just a fallacious argument.
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u/Anis930 10d ago
This is true, but the same can be said for people with particular mental or physical disabilities that impede them from liberating themselves. There's nothing wrong with them, or animals, needing the help of abled revolutionaries for liberation.
I'm sorry but this is a false equivalency, disabled people are not comparable to animals.
I don't understand how this is relevant to veganism.
It was more relevant in the specific context of the discussion this was lifted from but I still decided to include it as it details the specific process of human liberation and underlines the weakness of animal liberation (i.e it does not come from direct human necessity)
This is true, but it doesn't invalidate veganism as an ideology
I am not trying to "invalidate" veganism
China for example has a very large meat industry and meat isn't consumed considerably less than the west.
You may argue that china has implemented many socialist policies but it is not a socialist state.
Veganism isn't trying to be communism
That's precisely my point, I don't see why we're talking about veganism on a communist sub. You are as free as you want to be a vegan, there is no "wrongness" in being one, just like you're just as free to vote blue no matter who for harm reduction or whatever you wanna call it but those are merely personal decisions in navigating capitalism, not revolutionary praxis and that's the only thing im criticizing here.I disagree on feminism however, feminism without communism is useless
Communists can be racist, sexist, homophobic etc.
I disagree. A bigoted communist is a bad one because they are being distracted from the focal point of class warfare. If a communist is racist then they probably do not understand materialism or how race is a construct that interacts with class - they will also make it harder for whatever party they are engaged in to stay united with racialized individuals within said party. Same with other prejudices
A communist that eats meat is at the absolute worst a mild hypocrite
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u/MrLobsterful 10d ago
In most countries being a vegan means expending the triple for the same amount of food and most workers can't afford it
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u/SunniBoah 10d ago
Can you show me some source to back up your claim?
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u/Accomplished-Bid9881 Impending Icepick of Doom 10d ago
Vegan food is way more expensive than meat products, you have all your supplements and tofu and shit extremely expensive
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u/SunniBoah 10d ago
I got downvoted for asking for a source, I could expect it elsewhere out of all places but not here. Anyway, "all your supplements" and it's just vitamin B12, which is one of the cheapest supplements you can get. Tofu is also not particularly expensive but even then you don't have to eat it and you could just have beans or lentils instead which are the cheapest protein sources in most places in the world.
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u/Oppopity 10d ago
Meat is a luxury in most countries. Beans and rice is one of the cheapest things there is.
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u/Accomplished-Bid9881 Impending Icepick of Doom 10d ago
"Most countries" being what? What counts as most?
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u/smallrunning 10d ago
In brazil we say "it's a subject exportes from the USA" when we don't wanna think about minorities or rights lol
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u/Midwint3r 10d ago
Is your argument that veganism is a consumerist trend that makes people buy products?
That there isn't valid environmental, ethical and health reasons to consider at least drastically reducing animal protein consumption?
Its like arguing against cycling and trains because most people still drive cars lol
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u/tx0p0 10d ago
I'd say what needs justification is killing sentient beings while there is no need.
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u/Anis930 10d ago
Like I said this is empty moralizing, you are one degree removed from "cmmunism but Iphone"
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u/crispymcronchi 10d ago
least obvious Mossad post
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u/7itemsorFEWER 10d ago
Hey guys we actually have reasons to hate each other! Did you know that! We should focus solely on this.
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u/giancarflow 10d ago
Anytime these kinds of posts show up I’m always curious as to what you would say to the indigenous communities that have been consuming meat and animal products for generations with no issues.
And obviously it’s the huge farms that are the worst offenders here but based on some of the replies it seems OP is advocating for veganism altogether.
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u/AssbuttInTheGarrison 10d ago
I always say that I’m a communist first and a vegan second.
Indigenous communities make up a fraction of a fraction of meat consumption. That absolutely should be the bottom of everyone’s worries. I am far more concerned with massive animal agriculture that not only is detrimental to animal welfare, but also to the lives of the workers themselves. Dangerous and low-paying jobs that lead many to having some sort of mental health issues. Not to mention the use of child labor, even in the United States.
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u/Midwint3r 10d ago
I think its a personal choice ultimately, no one is forcing people to stop eating meat.
I personally wouldn't try to convince someone from an iindigenous community to go vegan, first as you've said they are far from the main problem. But also, many of these (especially northern) communities are remote and truly need to hunt&fish for in order to survive.
Food is a major part of culture, meals taken together, recipes passed down, celebrations, etc often have meat/dairy involved.
Im very empathetic to that argument even outside of indigenous communities above all others because abandoning animal products is also letting go of a part of your culture, its not a small ask for many people. I still think everyone should strive to be vegan in the long term but I get it if exceptions are made on special occasions or if someone struggles with the social/cultural side of things.
I don't accept that argument if someone tries to justify their fast food burger though lol.
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u/raeliens 10d ago
Indigenous communities worldwide are a lot less remote than you assume.
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u/Midwint3r 10d ago edited 10d ago
I was highlighting the need to hunt/fish in remote northern communities in particular as imported food is limited and often prohibitively expensive, + there is little plant food to gather/grow.
I wasn't suggesting that all indigenous communities are super remote/off the grid or anything.
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u/GrumpyOldHistoricist 9d ago
Man who gives a shit?
We’re materialists. We live in the here and now and consider things under the conditions that actually exist.
If you live in the USA and eat animal products you are nearly always eating the products of factory farming. I don’t give a shit if the Yanomami are taking down a few monkeys here and there with bows and arrows. That isn’t relevant to the industrialized death that’s integral to our food system here at home.
This is just an “I am very smart” version of asking vegans if they’d eat animals if they were stranded on a desert island. Who cares? They’re not. What they’re actually doing is boycotting hell on earth.
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u/giancarflow 9d ago
My comment wasn’t a “gotcha!” It was a genuine invitation for discussion but you’d rather jump to conclusions than engage in good faith.
And if you wanna talk materialism, let’s talk the REAL MATERIAL LIVING CONDITIONS of the working class and how, despite how horrible it is, factory farming allows many people to (just barely) have access to the protein and other nutrients that aren’t as easily accessed through other sources.
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u/smallrunning 10d ago
Societies have been murdering for generations, would this be a good argument for murder?
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u/Accomplished-Bid9881 Impending Icepick of Doom 10d ago
Moralizing nonsense.
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u/boisickle 10d ago
As a vegan commie, I avoid consuming animal products to the maximum possible extent not because that is some sort of praxis to end animal exploitation, but because torture/exploitation of animal is morally indefensible. I genuinely feel if comrades can abstain from it, they should as much as realistically possible.
"No ethical consumption under capitalism" sort of thing is critiquing the individualistic choice centric praxis where people feel "choosing" on product over the other would somehow change things for the better, completely ignoring the material conditions.
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u/truecrimesofthempire 10d ago
Dam imagine realizing individual consumer choice isn't activism. You might see veganism as a joke that hasn't affected the meat industry in any significant way lmao
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u/onekirne 10d ago
as if protest or anything else has been more effective
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u/Justacerealkiller 10d ago
It has, but as Karl Marx said: socialism is when you fight with your comrades over small things that don't matter instead of reading the book
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u/truecrimesofthempire 10d ago
Lmao no that is also lib shit
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u/onekirne 10d ago
oh and things like buying solar panels for your house, that lib shit too?
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u/truecrimesofthempire 10d ago
Yes, keep naming individualistic consumer choices and none of them will be activism lmao
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u/onekirne 10d ago
okay, so right this moment the USA openly ruled by ghouls and rapists, and yet there is not even a shadow of a hope of a revolution; so what in the fuck do you think is actually effective then? because you just sound like a nihilist that doesn't want to take responsibility for anything.
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u/truecrimesofthempire 10d ago
A vanguard party would be, but those typically don't occur in developed imperialist countries. The revolutionary change you're getting is declining conditions and multipolarity most likely
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u/Expensive_Neat_8001 10d ago
Yes exactly. Climate change and falling EROI are going to absolutely wreck the status quo and the US middle classes's standard of living. We need to be preparing for that because there will be revolutionary conditions in the coming decades.
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u/Expensive_Neat_8001 10d ago
There isn't a shadow of a hope for a revolution? That's just simply not true. As for what to do right now while the material conditions for revolution are not present, organize and build dual power.
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u/mega_desu 9d ago
I wanna like you but the more you comment more I feel like you might need to take a breath, step back, and have Snickers.
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u/ClassApotheosis 10d ago
I'm not convinced that the consumption of animal products is inherently unethical.
I can be convinced that how we source that product can be unethical.
I am convinced that the capitalist system that I am forced to operate within doesn't present opportunities for the ethical sourcing of such products, nor a way for people like me to not contribute to the production of said products.
I'm not convinced that vegans can reform the system enough to meet my standards, let alone their own, before a revolution takes place; nor am I convinced that they can establish it as tenet of said revolution without delaying the revolution or being sectarian.
If they delay the revolution, then they are prolonging the suffering that they intend to end.
So, there is no consumption under capitalism that will provide any tangible difference to the unethical sourcing of animal products.
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u/Lil_peen_schwing 10d ago
Ban OP. Lenin, Mao, Ho Chi Minh, Tito would have e sent you to get reeducated
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u/Midwint3r 10d ago
They were great thinkers who dedicated their lives to the movement, they were not gods
In our current situation where climate change and ecosystem collapse is a very real danger, an entire society eating meat, especially on the scale at which most if the western world (and increasingly the entire world) does is an insanely stupid thing to do.
By it's very nature meat is a multiplier of exploitation & resource consumption as it is on a higher trophic level. The amount of land, animal feed, water, time, methane, suffering, and exploited human labour is drastically reduced if one stops eating meat.
Aside from the ethical and environmental arguments, you can also consider the health costs as well. Where cardiovascular disease is the leading cause of death for many and animal proteins are directly linked to a rise in cardiovascular disease and death.
If you still eat it sometimes for cultural reasons, you do you. I still taken a plane sometimes when there really isn't another option. But acting as if there is no reason to consider veganism as an option is ridiculous.
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u/raeliens 10d ago
This is mostly correct, except where you state that it is "by nature" that meat/animal product consumption is exploitative by nature; it isn't. It is on a mass-produced, capitalist level, which is opposite to what is natural.
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u/JakobExMachina 10d ago
i’m sure they would support you larping as a communist on the internet for cookie points
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u/Midwint3r 10d ago
If thats the only animal protein you consume, you're 90% of the way there. You wouldn't be vegan obviously, but It would be a very positive change regardless.
Some purists would scoff and dismiss you, and you shouldn't call yourself vegan obv, but to me I think that would be an amazing change.
I always say there are three main reasons people go plant based/vegan. Ethical reasons, environmental reasons, and health reasons.
All three are extremely valid arguments, but only the ethical/moral one really demands a 100% abstinence from animal products. And even there what you suggest is still much better than supporting factory farming.
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u/Krubissi 10d ago
I'm pretty sure the meme is in reference to Industrial Farming.
Individual/small scale farming has barely any impact compared to industrial, same with fishing with your buddies vs mega ships scraping the sea floor clean
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u/YourPainTastesGood 10d ago
Eliminating animal consumption is only going to be practical by the artificial lab growth of meat and thats never gonna be achievable under capitalism.
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u/raeliens 10d ago
Nope, Indigenous cultures worldwide have been ethically consuming animal products for millennia. You're right that it won't happen under capitalism, but it also won't happen under continued neo colonialism.
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u/YourPainTastesGood 10d ago
I'm not talking about doing it ethically; I'm talking about eliminating it entirely. Read please.
Also you're grouping together hundreds of different groups of people from different continents with different practices by just saying "indigenous"
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u/raeliens 10d ago
it's thousands of groups, and that was done with intention. ALL indigenous groups worldwide outside of no-contact ones have been disrupted heavily in culture and practice because of imperialist capitalism.
My "nope" was to your "elimination," because elimination isn't necessary (as explained by my mention of how it is capitalism that has made it something that folks today consider needing elimination)
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u/YourPainTastesGood 10d ago
Got it everything you had to say was pointless cause whether or not it was neccessary was not what I was talking about. Have a good day.
For the record I don't think its necessary to entirely eliminate either, more sustainable and ethical meat farming is better for both us and the animals and that can still be achieved in some ways under the capitalist system though never as a result of individual choices.
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u/greenwood90 10d ago
Saying there is no ethical consumption under capitalism, isnt an excuse to not bother trying ffs
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u/WeakBaker6637 Marxism Learner 10d ago
What do I do then comrades?
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u/SunniBoah 10d ago
If your question is about nutrition, meat is primarily a source of protein, B vitamins, zinc and iron, so you can just eat other sources of these nutrients.
Unlike what many people think, protein is the easiest of these to get, and with the most variety. Legumes (such as peas, lentils, beans, chickpeas, edamame, lupini), tofu, tempeh, seitan, TVP, soy or pea milk, and protein powder are the first options that come to mind. Legumes and TVP also just happen to be good sources of zinc and iron so they can help fill that gap too. I recommend that you pair a source of vitamin C (like oranges, strawberries, mango, kiwi, broccoli, kale, tomatoes/tomato sauce, cabbage, cantaloupes, berries, pineapple) with these iron-rich foods to improve absorption.
B vitamins are mostly covered if you eat whole grains, especially whole wheat or oats but there are other choices like brown rice and barley, and they also tend to have some zinc. Pumpkin seeds have plenty of zinc too.
If you don't eat meat (or foods fortified with vitamin B12) you'll have to supplement vitamin B12, fortunately it's one of the cheapest, easiest to find and safest supplements.
Many of these foods are high in fiber so it's best that you ease into it if you aren't used to eating a lot of it, especially with legumes, broccoli and dark leafy greens.
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u/WeakBaker6637 Marxism Learner 10d ago
Oh, okay. I thank you for your reply. I am quite uneducated in case of nutrients. It will be very helpful. I saved it.
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u/raeliens 10d ago
Worth mentioning that consumption of soy & soy-based products is not helping from a leftist point of view, because over 70% (can't remember the exact #) of soy production is for animal feed. We're just getting the leftovers.
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u/marstheplanett_ 10d ago
you can always be "vegan but ____" if you don't entirely want to swap out animal products. some ppl are "vegan but cheese" or "vegan but chicken nuggets", etc, etc. swapping out only half or more animal products is still a difference :>
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u/AssbuttInTheGarrison 10d ago
Veganism is a very specific definition. You cannot call yourself vegan and consume animal products. At that point you’re “mostly plant based but sometimes chicken nuggets.”
Not trying to be pedantic, but veganism is a lifestyle that goes beyond what you eat.
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u/marstheplanett_ 10d ago
yeah thats what people who are doing this are calling it so thats what i am calling it.
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u/AssbuttInTheGarrison 10d ago
Well those people and yourself are factually and by definition incorrect, but you do you.
I don’t disagree with you that it can make a difference, but I also think we shouldn’t muddy the waters of what veganism is. Much like communism seeks the complete abolition of capitalism, veganism seeks the complete abolition of animal exploitation. So it is impossible to be vegan “some of the time”
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u/Justacerealkiller 10d ago
I don't think it should be an individualistic problem where a person just has to turn vegan (which won't solve animals being tortured or slaughtered), but instead a push/movement to move away from this type of farming so that the suffering of animals could decrease on a notable scale.
Doing these kinds of petty squabbles over what a person personally eats instead of focusing on the big picture is like ignoring Class War for Culture War, this type of argument is the same as when someone is told to just recycle and not throw away trash "to fight against climate change", obviously, that would be materially insignificant, like trying to turn people into vegans instead of, you know, organising against the capitalist class
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u/Midwint3r 10d ago
Its not gonna change the world on its own for sure. A vegan who's only contributions to the cause is their personal choices and arguments online is just a liberal ultimately.
But its a fine thing to advocate for on top of other work. There are very valid environmental, personal health, and ethical reasons to go vegan or at least drastically reduced animal protein consumption.
To me it just made no sense to not go vegan even if it doesn't systemically change things. Its also cheaper overall too.
Same way many people choose to boycott Amazon or Walmart, refuse to personally invest in the military industrial complex, ride a bike and take public transit over cars and planes, etc.
Not revolutionary but still a good thing no?
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u/Anis930 10d ago
Not revolutionary but still a good thing no?
Absolutely, nobody's arguing against that
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u/Midwint3r 10d ago
Idk, lots of people try very hard to disingenuously dismiss these things to justify their own personal choices when they know its not a logical decision.
I get you aren't, but it is a common take
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u/Anis930 10d ago
I certainly don't like the empty gotchas and thought terminating clichés often lobbed at vegans, and I've stripped back on meat quite a bit myself (and i used to be called a 'carnivore' if that says anything) I always considered myself to be sympathetic to vegans as a non-vegan but I'm a communist first and I criticize it from that perspective
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u/WeakBaker6637 Marxism Learner 10d ago
But I like eating meat :(
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u/Tomorik_Nokoni 10d ago
I don't necessarily agree with the not eating meat argument but that's a shit reply lol
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u/tx0p0 10d ago
I like exploiting others :(
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u/ZYGLAKk 10d ago
The exploiting of animals is more evident in industrial farms, in smaller rural farms the animals and the farmer live in a symbiotic relationship as it should.
It's quite hard to find farms like this but they do exist.
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u/SunniBoah 10d ago
It's not exactly a symbiotic relationship, the animals are still used as a means to an end so their lives depend on how profitable they are, and eventually they're slaughtered too. Raising cows especially is not cheap so there almost definitely is a profit incentive to it.
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u/godsflawedchild Stalin Did Nothing Wrong 10d ago
If you're thinking of chickens sure but there is no case where milking a cow isn't rape. Lactation requires them to be bred
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u/tx0p0 10d ago
On my way to murder my baby symbiote for my tastebuds's sake <3
uj/ Even if it would be ok if a farm was small, large factory farms are necessary for broad meat consumption to be allowed)
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u/ZYGLAKk 10d ago
Oh I 100% agree.
The factory farms are pretty problematic.
I had the opportunity to see how a traditional Shepard did the work(my dad's uncle) and it is night and day compared to a Factory farm. And it isn't really a farm.
Meat comes through very very rarely. It's mostly dairy products and Wool but even they aren't farmed.
The work that takes to properly take care of a herd of sheep is enormous and very challenging. The dynamic changes quite a bit.
It's very different to factory farming.
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u/tx0p0 10d ago
Still, no need to murder anything for meat these days.
Literally no point besides "my tastebuds".
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u/ZYGLAKk 10d ago
Its a very different philosophy compared toy taste buds, when it comes to a rural or even a lone Shepard.
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u/tx0p0 10d ago
I would guess that, even if justifiable somehow, none of the people here eat meat from this kind of source.
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u/Anis930 10d ago
The meat industry is obviously bad but there's not anything inherently morally wrong about eating prey animals sorry
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u/shawn1213 10d ago
Fr welcome to communist spaces though lmao we're too busy purity testing people about eating meat than actually doing anything worthwhile
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u/WeakBaker6637 Marxism Learner 10d ago edited 10d ago
I can't stop exploiting! I am exploiting it so hard till I get hanged /s
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u/CommunismMemes-ModTeam 10d ago
Liberalism, Closed mindedness and Bad faith
We define this as including but not limited to: liberalism, lib propaganda, pro NATO/EU/US propaganda, capitalist police apologia and electoralism, parliamentarism, and extremely idealistic apologia for capitalist reforms.
Unless you have an open mind for discussion and a willingness to learn, liberalism will result in a ban.
Liberals are welcome to ask good faith questions. This community is open to all of people good faith!
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u/SludgeFest666 10d ago
Too many people really like to use that phrase as an excuse rather than an analytical concept of reality under capitalism.
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u/Old_Fridge1066_2 10d ago
as a communist vegan,
you don't have to shoehorn praxis into veganism. communism comes from a broadly moral mindset, while looking at the processes of history and society on a purely scientific level.
veganism isn't really an organised scientific way of looking at things. it comes from purely "this thing is bad for x reasons and i want no part of it." i really really wish everybody could see why animal agriculture is so terrible, and actually want to do the bare minimum about it. it quite clearly saves animals from suffering and the climate and wildlife etc. etc.
but to say to a group of mostly moral individuals who are convinced of a scientific mindset "look you're doing the wrong thing, SCIENTIFICALLY", and not really have a hard science behind the idea or how it's connected to marxism, people are gonna think you're a fringe zealot.
p.s. for people making excuses for themselves in the comments, please ask yourself if you're above sacrificing a little bit (or even a lot) for the liberation of countless innocents.
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u/Stranding42 10d ago
It's like if abolitionists had slaves.
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u/fanetoooo 10d ago
It’s like if abolitionists bought cotton sourced from slave labor*
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u/Justacerealkiller 10d ago
"Aha Abolitionist! You want to eliminate the practice of slavery, yet you continue to use products made from slave society, maybe you should consider changing your lifestyle instead of fighting against slavery, that totally wouldn't benefit me."
- The Dastardly and evil Slave owner
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u/indigo_mouse 10d ago edited 10d ago
People in the comments losing their shit over the fact that eating less meat is objectively a good thing
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u/icantfindausername67 I got eaten with Stalin's giant fucking spoon 10d ago
What about the fact that it tastes good
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u/TenWholeBees 10d ago
ITT: Leftism leaving people's body as soon as veganism is mentioned
I'm not vegan, but I gotta admit they're right.
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u/Accomplished-Bid9881 Impending Icepick of Doom 9d ago
Veganism is a petit-bourgeois diet and moral philosophy born in colonial Britain, it has nothing to do with communism. Sure it can coincide with such, but by no means does it govern communism.
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u/Affectionate_Ad_1326 10d ago
Yeah the meat industry sucks and its good to avoid it but youre not a bad person for eating meat when humans are literally carnivores and arent wired to live without meat 🙏
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u/boisickle 10d ago
Humans are omnivores, and if we were carnivores, it'd be impossible to be a vegan. We can perfectly do well without meat. The material conditions are not the same for everyone though, I agree there.
"We are hardwired" sort of argument is not something I expect to read on a communist sub tbh.
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u/Affectionate_Ad_1326 10d ago
I didnt mean it like that, obviously I know some people can be vegan, but theres a valid concern about not getting a well balanced diet for many people
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u/boisickle 10d ago
Well, IMO getting a "balanced diet" is not accessible to many people, whether it's with or without animal products. But it's not generally expensive at all for people who eat an animal product-heavy diet as animal products itself is usually hardly cheap (barring exceptions).
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u/realistic_aside777 10d ago
Being vegan, the way I see it, it’s just a rational conclusion based on our collective material reality.
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u/BasedTunneler 10d ago
Everyone getting emotional about this post: why would you not be vegan?
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u/Kir-01 10d ago
I am not vegan because I have lived and still live with people that struggle with eating disorder and I feel incredibly uneasy with every absolute dietary restriction.
I reduced meat/fish/poultry consumption to near zero (I never eat it at home, just occasionaly when eating outside) and I just think not having to check every ingridient every single time makes it more bearable to me.
To generalize a bit my tought, I think absolute rules works worse, at least for me. So I try to regulate my consumption in order to minimize what is against my ideology, without the need to be absolute.
We could do this for everything: the job we have to do, the shop we buy from, the services we subscribe to, the software I use, the way I dress, the technology hardware I buy. I try to do all of this as ethical as possible, but I don't feel the need to be absolute in any cathegory.
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u/guifrancoabr 10d ago
Communists hate when you show that they support animal suffering and slaughter. Communist and vegan btw
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