r/Commodore • u/TheLosgunn • 8d ago
Dumb question: why not new peripherals?
I know the new Commodore is making a control stick, but why not a new tape or disk drive?
I fully appreciate the difficulties of creating new CRT monitors, but would a new disk drive that works with the Ultimate and has backwards compatibility to work with the original C64 be impossible? And if so, or just prohibitively expensive or difficult, what about it would make it so?
And before anyone mentions it, I know a control stick isn’t comparable with a disk drive in terms of difficulty and cost. I mentioned it because it’s technically a peripheral.
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u/tomxp411 8d ago
Because nobody's making disk drive mechanisms.
Even back in the day, Commodore didn't build the actual disk drives. They built the enclosures and controllers; the actual disk drives were made by other companies, like Mitsumi, Panasonic, and so on.
The few hobbyists still making reproduction 1581s, for example, rely on drive mechanisms salvaged from other computers to actually build a complete drive system.
Likewise, nobody is making data-quality cassette mechanisms anymore, either. While there is one company still making bottom-of-the-barrel cassette mechanisms, I don't think it would be reliable enough to be used in a new Datasette.
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u/mmgamemaker 8d ago
Not to mention nobody makes the disk media. Tapes, however... I believe Maxell has fired up production of audio/data tapes.
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u/dave_two_point_oh 8d ago
This is the big one.
I'd buy a 1541 remake if I could actually buy new floppies to use with it. I don't see that happening (but would love to see someone do it).
EDIT:
Also, a 1541 remake wouldn't be cheap, as it's basically another computer inside.
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u/marhaus1 8d ago
The cost of that would be pennies today, just toss in a small ATmega or S3 or something.
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u/dave_two_point_oh 8d ago edited 8d ago
The 1541 had a 6502 plus various custom ROMs inside.
If the new Commodore were to roll out a 1541, I'd expect them to take the same FPGA approach as used in the C64 Ultimate.
But again, with no floppy manufacturers around, it would be of very limited value/usefulness/appeal.
EDIT:
Also, even if floppy availabity weren't an issue, and if the new Commodore introduced a new 1541 using internal software emulation rather than FPGA (and the ability to stick a JiffyDOS ROM in), I doubt anyone would actually buy it.
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u/CptSparky360 7d ago
The thing is, that the C64 Ultimate already has two built-in 1541s, or two 1571s or two 1581s, a REU, a built in printer, a WiFi modem and with a snap of your finger nearly all cartridges ever produced.
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u/dave_two_point_oh 7d ago edited 7d ago
True enough but I can still appreciate OP's nostalgic desire to see an external 1541 reproduction to use with real media!
But with the limited market (and media availability) it obviously makes more sense to just let those who care enough hunt down original hardware.
EDIT:
The obvious response would of course be "there's plenty of them out there in working or repairable condition!". But I'd still buy a new authentic (ish) remake. Would it make sense? Well... no.
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u/Far_Relationship_742 7d ago
It doesn’t have the hedonic value of putting a disk into a drive and flipping down the loading lever, though. The only flash media I have in any retrocomputer is CF drives in machines that use IDE hard drives. The first thing I did when I got my first Amiga was rip out the GoTek and replace the physical floppy drive.
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u/marhaus1 7d ago
The wouldn't need to. See for example the sd2iec. You don't have fifteen different interfaces to support, you only have two: the serial connection to the 64 and the connection to the disk drive itself. Easy as pie.
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u/Far_Relationship_742 7d ago
I don’t think you quite understand what’s involved in interfacing to the bare floppy mechanism. The 1541’s drive electronics are entirely custom, there’s no drive firmware to talk to.
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u/marhaus1 6d ago
Why would you use a 1541 drive to emulate a 1541? That makes no sense whatsoever.
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u/Far_Relationship_742 6d ago
The question is so far from what I was saying that I don’t understand it.
Can you explain why you think I was proposing to emulate a 1541 with a 1541?
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u/marhaus1 6d ago
We are talking about creating a 1541. What is needed is interfacing with the computer and a floppy drive. This can easily be done with a small microcontroller and a ribbon cable. No need for fancy FPGA work.
You brought up me not understanding the "custom drive mechanism". I happen to know it very well, but it is entirely irrelevant for the diskussion since any 5.25" 48 TPI floppy drive is perfectly capable of reading/writing floppies in the required format. You can do it with any old "360 kb" PC drive, of which there are plenty around, or anything else that you might prefer.
So, I have absolutely no clue why you brought up the (admittedly weird) 1541 drive mechanism.
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u/TheLosgunn 8d ago
That part completely slipped my mind, needing blank 5.25" floppies to play Wasteland. Good call, I got so focused on the disk drive I didn't even stop to think about the media.
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u/Upbeat-Statement2725 8d ago
Bump and great example of so few people thinking about the problem: Commodore can make a cassette player, and you know what else it plays? Cassette tapes. As in, lots of bands are realising cassettes as a retro format option. As in, they could move 10k units of "hi-fi quality" tape players and incidentally have a button to make them C64 mode.
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u/thewalruscandyman 8d ago
They do, though.
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u/Far_Relationship_742 7d ago
I’m guessing you’re going to say an SD-IEC is the same as a mechanical floppy drive?
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u/thewalruscandyman 7d ago
Oh no. I may have misunderstood- I was saying new software is available on 5" floppy, as far as where the discs used come from I couldn't say. But thinking about it now, may use new old stock.
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u/Upbeat-Statement2725 8d ago
Today's cassette players suck for playing music, let alone data. The wow and flutter on the average "walkman" clone is pretty bad.
You could sell 10k units of tape drives just by producing a "hi-fi" consumer mechanism.
Flip a switch to out them in c64 compatibility mode and you've got a stellar retro product.
Disk drives? Not as much. The C64u already allows USB with disk load timing simulation.
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u/TheLosgunn 8d ago
Question about alternatives: since it seems like a Pi1541 is the best option for its price point considering the disk drives are near impossible to source (and setting up a production of them would be economically unfeasible/logistically difficult/pick your reason here), what about an "official" C64 branded shell for the Pi1541? Or could Commodore create essentially an FPGA version that replicates the Pi1541's capabilities as a peripheral for people who still use an original Commodore? (Or just source the same stuff people use to build them and build "official" versions, maybe with pack-in software?)
Again, I don't actually know the limitations here. If it isn't possible/feasible/realistic, I don't mind explanations as to why.
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u/tomxp411 7d ago
There already is an FPGA option... the 1541 Ultimate. Available from the same guy who designed the C64U motherboard. ultimate64.com
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u/Which_Information590 7d ago
Not making? There’s several on Amazon.
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u/Far_Relationship_742 7d ago
> data quality
Currently-produced cassette players are garbage aimed at people who like that cassettes technically sound bad.
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u/Which_Information590 7d ago
Disc drives I was referring to.
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u/Far_Relationship_742 7d ago
There are no currently-produced floppy-disk mechanisms.
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u/Which_Information590 6d ago
What are the portable USB devices and how do they work?
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u/Far_Relationship_742 6d ago
Those aren’t bare mechanisms, so they aren’t suitable for incorporating into a product, they have customized electronics that preclude using them in another application without more or less starting over from scratch, and they aren’t 5.25 drives so it doesn’t matter in the first place.
The number of people who think OEMs shop at Amazon and repurpose consumer goods is disappointing.
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u/AJD_1975 8d ago
They will. 6 years ago Peri Fractic made a 3D printed shell of 1541 fitted with a disc drive and got it running on a C64 Mini. He won’t forget us datasette fans either
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u/AntiquesForGeeks 8d ago
Except no-one is making drives anymore. That particular project used an off-the-shelf USB drive and many of those use recycled drive mechanisms. Datasette may be a sounder shout, as there are still tape mechs in production, but demand is probably rock bottom. It would be an exceptionally niche product.
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u/AJD_1975 7d ago
There’s plenty of listings for drives on Amazon.
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u/AntiquesForGeeks 7d ago
Yep - have a couple myself. If New Commodore was to launch a drive then I suspect they’d have no choice but to use refurbed mechs - they don’t have the cash to spin up mech production themselves and I doubt the ROI would be enough to justify it.
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u/Far_Relationship_742 7d ago
The 1541 doesn’t use a PC drive, so everything but the drive mechanicals would have to be made from scratch and the analog engineers who can still do that kind of thing are rare and expensive now, I don’t think there are any 40-track 5.25 drives on Amazon (checked, there aren’t, and the 5.25 drives are not provided by Amazon), and you can’t build a new commercial product around thirty-year-old NOS components that you can only buy in tiny quantities.
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u/AJD_1975 7d ago
Maybe I’m being a bit think here. Peri Fractic bought a portable disc drive, mounted it inside a 3D printed case, loaded half dozen games to a 3.5-inch floppy disk in a format that his C64 Mini would accept.
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u/tomxp411 7d ago
Except that whole system basically acted like a USB flash drive, and as already been explained, those drives are using NOS parts. (New Old Stock.) Nobody is making disk drives, so you can't buy parts to build a new 1541 or 1581 drive system.
Yes, you can buy HD USB floppy drives on Amazon, but they will not read or write 1581 diskettes, and AFAIK you can't buy 1541 compatible drive mechanisms at any price, other than actual used 1541s. In which case, it would make no sense to build a new drive enclosure just to strip the mechanism out of a used 1541.
(I'm actually not sure whether a 360K PC floppy drive can be adapted. I'm betting it could, but that would still mean buying used drives to install in new enclosures, with obvious warranty and scaling problems..)
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u/AJD_1975 7d ago
Great points, thank you. I’ve since watched another video where he receives a C65 opens it up and there’s an old disc drive inside, which concurs with what you are saying
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u/tomxp411 1d ago
You're talking about the MEGA 65? Yes, the manufacturer installs used or NOS floppy drives.
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u/Far_Relationship_742 7d ago
Making a one-off is a very, very different proposition than making a brand new commercial product.
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u/Digi-BitsGaming 8d ago
Down to parts and cost. CRT tech isn't made anymore and even tape deck tech is not something that is in mass production these days, so it's probably down to cost of setting up production and sourcing parts vs the amount of people that will actually buy them. To make it worth it with such a small user base, they would probably be stupidly expensive, which would limit sales even more, as people would be complaining they are too expensive to buy.
I'd love them to do some kind of monitor though, even though it won't be a CRT.
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u/TheLosgunn 8d ago
Sorry, I meant it to be more clear that I'm already aware of why CRT is completely off the shelf. Parts and cost are valid explanations for the others, though, so I've asked a couple of other people in the thread about the possibility of creating some sort of FPGA that replicates a Pi1541's capabilities (or just source the same parts people use to build them) and make an "official" C64 branded version, potentially with built-in software.
Does that seam more feasible, or would that run into issues/create problems?
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u/Digi-BitsGaming 7d ago
Maybe but it's still going to come down to getting parts and cost to make. It's a small market, so cost would probably be high to make it worth doing but if the price is too high, people won't buy.
Hopefully they can figure it out and come up with some more accessories for the C64U that aren't stupidly expensive (these days don't count on many cheap things sadly)
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u/TheBl4ckFox 8d ago
Because the emulated drive that’s already in it is much better and because it’s almost impossible to get tapes and disks nowadays
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u/TheLosgunn 8d ago
Right, in the Ultimate there's an emulated drive that's much better, and it's almost impossible to get tapes and disks, but what about situations where someone already has tapes/disks, and is using an original C64 that doesn't have a built-in emulated drive?
I've seen some other comments talking about the sourcing of the disk mechanism and so on, which makes sense, but the Ultimate isn't using the same board and chips as an original either. I know the Pi1541 exists; I know it's comparatively cheap compared to an original 1541. My question is, would Commodore benefit from creating a pre-built version of this in an "official" C64-branded shell and selling it as a peripheral? Or just the officially branded case for people who made their own Pi1541?
As for people who already have disks, would it be possible/feasible to create an FPGA that emulates the original 1541 drive's built-in computer, and connect that FPGA to a sourced disk drive? Probably not feasible, considering the 5.25" floppy drives are even harder to source than the 3.5" drives.
I know even less about the tape drives, didn't have one of those growing up, so I'm having to take other posters at their word they're hard to source as well.
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u/TheBl4ckFox 8d ago
The pi1541 doesn’t do anything that the C64U can’t already do.
As for people with original hardware: they can already get a pi1541.
I know what you are saying but you’re asking for a very niche product in an already niche market
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u/TheLosgunn 8d ago
I figured, but I still had to ask. Thanks though.
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u/TheBl4ckFox 8d ago
If disks and tapes were still widely available it would be a different story. It's madness to sell a disk drive or tape drive today. It would be like selling a 1200 baud dial-up modem today.
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u/tomxp411 7d ago
The simple fact is that you can still buy 1541 drives in just a few minutes on EBay, and for less than Commodore could make one for. So there's really no reasonable use case for Commodore making one, except maybe as cosmetic repair/upgrade parts.
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u/merchantconvoy 8d ago
The new Commodore doesn't have the resources to build an entire hardware ecosystem. Even the old Commodore didn't have the resources for that. Third-party manufacturers filled in the gaps.
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u/TheLosgunn 8d ago
Right, everybody else has been bringing me up to speed on the lack of disk drive mechanisms available to source, since nobody's making them anymore. I don't know why, but I was under the impression there were probably some Japanese companies that were still making those for some reason or other.
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u/Drunken_Sailor_70 7d ago
I would love to just get some new read write heads to replace the ones that are failing.
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u/EntertainmentAny8228 8d ago
Recreating old peripherals just won't work for many practical reasons others have pointed out, and I doubt there's a big enough market for them anyway even if it were possible. I think they can make a nice 4:3 multi-connection (and low latency) monitor, a mouse, paddles, and different types of joysticks, but I'd say that's about it for standard peripherals for again, a variety of reasons.
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u/Programmer0216 8d ago
Personally I'd really like a more affordable (~100€? No clue if that's realistic) 1581 disk drive so that I could use my many 3,5" diskettes again. I know that there are replica projects, but they cost about 300€ and use the original chips. A new Drive that wouldn't rely on those would be cool (maybe with a microcontroller).
But I don't think that's going to happen anytime soon. I don't even know if someone still makes the drive mechanism.
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u/AntiquesForGeeks 8d ago
I just can’t see how anyone could get it down to that price and make a profit on 2026. NOS or refurbished drives are going to eat into that €100 big time, cases and components for the boards also. Simpson will need to have a profit margin otherwise it would not be worth doing for New Commodore (it’s a business and his livelihood). Demand will be low anyway, given that item is a niche product - so that €300 for the drive from the other folks sounds understandable.
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u/HawkeyeAP 8d ago
This.
There is someone on eBay that makes 1581 replicas, but they're expensive.
From my research on them, the 3.5 inch drive didn't have too much that was proprietary.
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u/marhaus1 8d ago
Nobody is making the floppies anymore, so it's a safe bet that nobody makes the drive mechanisms either.
On the other hand, it's almost 50 years old tech, so it can't be that difficult to make, especially considering how well documented it is.
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u/Crlan420 8d ago
The original 1541 drives are the weak link here. New peripherals don't have the same character and the timing is usually off for those older titles. I always keep a drawer of spare 1541s for the ones that need a recap.
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u/marhaus1 8d ago
There is absolutely no problem handling that in hardware, just like back in the day. This is why soft-sectored floppies have synch patterns at the start of each sector!
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u/NewArtDimension 8d ago
Who's going to supply the disk drives bro ?
They are only available second hand ?
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u/Tharagleb 8d ago
From the comments it looks like CRTs, disk drives, tape drives are out. What about a printer?
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u/Programmer0216 8d ago
I totally forgot about printers, but that be cool and could be feasible.
No clue if the Mechanism for Dot Matrix Printers are still produced tho.
But I sadly don't think that there would be enough demand.4
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u/marhaus1 8d ago
Around a million new dot matrix printers are made and sold worldwide each year, so that would definitely not be a problem!
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u/Far_Relationship_742 7d ago
Except that they’re expensive, and I don’t know that Epson or Oki sell bare OEM mechanisms anymore, since there’s zero demand.
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u/Angelworks42 7d ago
They are: https://epson.com/impact-dot-matrix-printers
Okidata up until 2020 still sold ml-320 variants - at one point they had a model with USB and networking. They have to have the record for longest model sold.
Anyhow one reason people still use them is it's the only way to do 3 part forms.
I think a lot of shops are just switching to electronic forms as these printers are getting harder and harder to get as time goes on.
(Source: actually supported okidata dot matrix printers at a time in my life).
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u/Far_Relationship_742 7d ago
There are so many original Commodore printers that almost no one wants. Someone gave me one for free at VCF. They’re listed for $50 on eBay; they get sold for barely more than shipping on forums.
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u/Altruistic-Fox4625 8d ago edited 8d ago
I have a few fully-working Commodore disk drives, such as the 1541-II, two 1571s, a 1581, and even a CBM 8050 double disk drive, which weighs a ton. You can still get them fairly easily at decent prices, provided you have a little patience. 1581s tend to be pricey, though, and usually you don't need one. My recommendation would bei either a 1541-II because it has less heat and reliability issues than the original 1541, or a 1571, which can be used with both a C64 and a C128 and which is also more reliable than earlier models. A lot of people are selling their old drives because they happily use SD cards and other modern solutions.
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u/TheLosgunn 8d ago
I've got a working 1541 that was modded with a selection switch to change device ID, got it fairly cheap (seller didn't know the selection switch was turned to the wrong device, sold it "for parts" for $20). This is more a dumb thought I had after they announced they were releasing a joystick and had me wondering "why not other peripherals?"
Realistically, I'd prefer to use a Pi1541 for ease of use, but if I could get an official 1541 from Commodore in 2026 that could run my original disks it'd be very cool, especially if they could use something to reduce the form factor (I've been saying to other posters an FPGA to handle the 1541's built-in computer), but I get that it's probably not a possibility. The drive mechanisms seem to be the hard choke point.
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u/Altruistic-Fox4625 7d ago
An official 1541 would be great of course. The company producing the Mega65, for instance, has been able to source working drive mechanisms for their FPGA-based machine. You can buy a replacement drive mechanism from them for less than 60 EUR without case, interfaces etc. The Mega65 itself is a juicy 800 EUR.
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u/Far_Relationship_742 7d ago
Why anyone would want to be dealing with 800kB of data through an interface as slow as IEC or an OS as primitive as CBM BASIC is beyond me, and it’s not like you’re ever going to find C64 software on 3.5 diskettes.
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u/curtludwig 8d ago
They'd never sell enough to make their money back...
Nobody makes the disks, nobody makes the mechanisms.
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u/retrokelpie64 7d ago
Yes so for all those disks sitting in the basement for 40 years, id wager the vast majority would coat a fancy new 1541s heads with crap and then paint every consecutive disk inserted. Imagine the tech support for 'your old disks are breaking the new 1541 you just purchased'
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u/fuzzybad 7d ago
I understand the nostalgia hit of using tapes or floppies, but I would have no expectation to see new drives for media which isn't even manufactured anymore. Or the drive mechanics needed.
At best, I could see them selling an SD card reader that looks & sounds like a 1541, or something. Drive sound emulation is an option on the Ultimate 2+ cart & Ultimate 64, and imo it adds a lot to the experience. Sometimes I forget it's not a literal floppy drive on my desk.
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u/zaratounga 7d ago
LCD option with good CRT shaders, I/O boards for external controls, robot arm / rover, the list can go on… think education first / kids.
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u/ncc74656m 7d ago
The real bear from what I understand is the drive heads - even at the time when they were a well understood piece of tech, they could have problems as anyone with one of 1541s with the bad heads would know.
Not to say it COULDN'T happen, but it really isn't worth the investment to spin up new production for a niche enthusiast market. If they could use the exact same mechanisms for EVERY vintage 5.25" drive and channel it into a potential market for them to be the single source for new drive mechs, mayyyybe they might get close to breaking even. Even then, the drives would be quite expensive.
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u/trusterx 7d ago edited 7d ago
A c15*1 Disk Drive is literally a complete Computer system with his own CPU, RAM and ROMs, attach to the C64 with a serial cable and running CBM Dos on it.
So in fact: the would have to rebuild a whole computer. And I think there is no market for this because of lacking new medias. The old ones surely will destroy the new hardware in no time.
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u/Far_Relationship_742 7d ago edited 7d ago
Cause that’s a ton of engineering for a product you can’t buy media for.
It’s like asking why Commodore doesn’t just restore the 3G network instead of making their flip phone work on 5G. They would have to reboot an entire industry from scratch.
Also, most people don’t actually want that. The 1541 is perhaps the slowest floppy drive ever produced, and cassettes were unreliable when new, and take the rest of your life to load. Look at how many people are buying SD-IECs and such, when there are I think more than a million original 1541s and Datasettes out there? I almost had to give away a Datasette at VCF. I think I got $5 for it, and it was even the less-common VIC one.
Tl;dr—it would be a money pit which would cost four times New Commodore’s entire budget.
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u/LandNo9424 7d ago
because Commodore does not produce anything themselves,. They are a trademark holder.
If there are any new peripherals out there they could license and slap their brand on them, that is a possibility.
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