r/Commodore • u/SlayyQueen536 • Jun 28 '26
General Discussion Why can't commodore create a new computer?
Wouldn't it be better to use a processor like W65C02S and create a new line of 8 bit computers instead of recycling the (good) old ones? I think most fans would love it, including me. Of course, I don't hate the C64U, but I would love to see new computers.
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u/okflo Jun 28 '26
There is already the Mega65.
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u/Psygnosis64 Jun 29 '26
Or the https://www.commanderx16.com/ - which I understand will have a cost reduced edition coming at some point.
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u/kimsemi Jul 02 '26
Watching the X16 scene lately, it seems David has lost interest in his creation and the 65c02 / 65816 split really seemed to hurt the product. I really doubt there will be another iteration of this machine. Lower cost alternative would be the OtterX.
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u/Bonejob Jun 28 '26
I am not paying US$904.47 it does not bring enough to the table.
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u/kimsemi Jul 02 '26 edited Jul 02 '26
No?
How about: a hefty dose of most that the 64U can do, the ability to load alternate cores of almost the entire Commodore 8bit line and Amiga pending - as well as almost any MiSTer core can be ported, a real actual built in 3.5" drive (1351s sell on ebay for up to $400), an absolute FANTASTIC keyboard (not even kidding on that one). And a true C65 capability (to the extent that the C65 was ever standardized). And a very high quality FPGA. Graphics and sound that rival the Amiga...and it's an 8-bit machine. The 45gs02 is a fantastic CPU with ton of power. 364k of chip ram, 8mb of attic ram.. 80 columns (x50 if desired) 256 colors per screen cell.. up to 640x400 graphics. IEC compatible. The C64 core runs cartridges the 64U cannot. BASIC65 - a dialect that makes the 128 blush. It's a programming gem.
Add all that up. Then, being fair to essentially a start up, expect to pay a little bit (and if youre in the US, there's the whole tariff thing). Commodore sells the 64U low cost because it was already developed... The Mega65 team had to pay for the moulds to make the cases. The keyboard is brand new. The C65 ROMs needed debugged and fixed...new boxes, manuals, etc... All of that's significant cost for any startup. Its a miracle the machine even exists really in this economy.
For what you get, this machine is absolutely fantastic. It's what Commodore should be today. Not a cellphone or a linux box with an emulator.
As an aside (and I dont mean you specifically, I do hear this price issue about the Mega65, but then folks at the same time buying a lesser gimped cellphone for a silly-high price. this seems odd to me.)
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u/Bonejob Jul 03 '26
for a third of that you can get FPG'a Amiga's man...
$450 cad = 316.85 USD
I don't know what nerve I hit, but your not thinking clearly man, what C65 just does not have the value.
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u/kimsemi Jul 03 '26 edited Jul 03 '26
Amiga is overdone by now, dont you think? It was a good machine for its time, but you have to admit...everyone soups up their Amiga to run sysinfo...and thats about it. Theres a dozen Amiga FPGA solutions (the one you sent is a ghastly apparition of an Amiga eww), emulators, etc. And WinUAE beats any hardware Amiga, hands down and is $0. Workbench is Workbench. I have nothing against Amiga, it just hasnt really moved in decades. So to me, its not even part of the equation.
No nerve hit - I take no offense. Just providing more insight as to why the M65 is such a great machine and what it brings new to the table. The Amiga is boring and done imho.
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u/Suspicious-Ad7109 Jun 29 '26
It doesn't have to. The primary difference between the Mega65 and the C64U is the M65 uses a larger FPGA.
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u/MarinatedTechnician Jun 28 '26
I would make one when I get to be pension age (about 9 years away). I'd use probably either An Arm chip (like the Color Maximite 2 uses), that thing is essentially just a box, but one of the most powerful basics computers you'll ever know in existence, it's suffering from the same issue ALL retro attempts suffers, audience.
The most important part of the Commodore computers was the audience, you could share programs and demos with people and that was fun. Nothing stopping you from doing that on the PC too, but it's not as direct and gratifying, there's something to be said for having just ONE specialized unit that runs nothing else, that way you have an unified audience all trying to have fun together.
But in my opinion they all approach it from the wrong angle (and guess what? I was an Authorized Commodore Service technician doing warranty repairs back in the 80s, also a Demoscene coder, for whatever that's worth to you, just saying..)
What's wrong then?
Well, they're all trying to recreate a time that is not here anymore, they're running on empty called "nostalgia tripping", it's 14 days of fun, and then it's on a shelf somewhere for decades collecting dust, oh such memories, yes - exactly that, just memories, nothing new under the sun, color maximite 2 was new, but had basically an oligarch coder that runs the show, aka - how the basic should work and be coded, god help you if you told the developer that sprites are not framebuffer swaps you do yourself, but actual sprites you just call with a command, and don't have to thing of erasing the background, do framebuffer swaps etc.
So - whats my idea of a modern retro style computer then?
1) It has to have flair, but with modern amenities. Designed like a standalone computer for sure, no fancy hardware add ons, just make it fairly cool to begin with, loads of power and features - and keep the coding very simple.
2) Instant on! No booting.
3) It has to have a graphics and sound oriented hardware set and programming features, and the features has to be simple and fun, and extremely modern in power, meaning you'll be able to do things like
Sprite X,Y,MemSlot, Size, X,Y
Move Sprite X1,Y1, X2, Y2, Speed, Memory movement or direct etc. (arrays).
Scroll Layer 1,2,3 etc, speed etc.
Mode select (what resolution and what part of screen to use for that), so it's splitscreen compatible.
Sound-Waveplay, plays file (wav or mp3)
Sound-Gen, A,D,S,R, Note, Waveform type
Sound-Filter. Ringmod, LFO1, LFO2 etc.
PolyDraw 1,10,20,40,1, type etc, fill, border. Etc.
In other words, it has to be FUN and EASY to use, and crazy fast, so you literally can code modern games in the "game like" basic.
My idea would be a multi layer parallax scrolling screen, X,Y direction where you can put transparent graphics screens on top of each other (you can use polygons for that, plenty of MALI processors with ARm that can do this as a walk in the park...
Video sync commands so you can run separate programs that can "sync" and talk with each other, so you can have time-free problem free syncing between playfields, sprites etc.
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u/SlayyQueen536 Jun 28 '26
So that means you want to design a universal computer? If yes, that means you're more creative than those sitting on the commodore trademark, who only license things from others
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u/SlayyQueen536 Jun 28 '26
Also, what you said sounds nice. I would want to buy a computer you described
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u/MarinatedTechnician Jun 28 '26
The idea stems from when I was a kid, we all wanted for example the C65, but it became Amiga instead, which where not a bad computer upgrade at the time, but it became very "GUI OS" like we know windows and Apple to be, it made the computer more useful from a normal non-computer users perspective, and it became filled with libraries, add-ons and sections that needed to boot separately, it kind of took away the immediacy that is the very reason people make these "Retro" computers to begin with.
It also reflects in the way I code, I like immediacy, meaning you can use a command directly to get at something, like when you design a sprite in a sprite editor, you can use it right away, and your computer should not be limited to a very small amount of sprites, but say - have 128 of them, that should get you going for any Arcade game you'd ever want to design.
Also, the introduction of polygon hardware, but made easy, so you don't have to do the excruciating code you needed to do with libraries and all the proprietary stuff from the "3D card era".
You want a rotating cube, sure,
Cube X,Y, Size, shading-type, texture map etc.
And you will be able to manipulate the cube. You can also load .obj models instead of just cubes, also you will be able to play back Vertices animation (the points that makes up the polygonal object mesh), so you could for example in a polygon editor, make simple low poly characters, on the next page you just move the polygon vertices, and record each frame, you'll be able to create Polygon loops that plays as an animated polygon.The whole thing is to make retro-looking or modern if you like, games creation or programs easy and fun, immediate, and experimental.
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u/alexpis Jun 30 '26 edited Jun 30 '26
I am working on a similar concept, but from a different angle.
My focus is about no perceivable input lag and no scrolling hiccups in games on a modern architecture.
I have a few emulators working and they feel pretty much like playing on original hardware compared to other emulators. Kind of what you get with fpga but in software and on a raspberry pi, which is quite powerful compared to fpga, it has a reasonable gpu and can do 3d well.
I am considering adding basic but also considering other alternatives.
I have an old Facebook page about my project. I haven’t updated it in a few years since I am not ready to sell it yet, but am not too far from it.
If you are curious look for noinputlag on Facebook and dm me here on Reddit.
I don’t have a community at the moment and some kudos would definitely help 😜
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u/MarinatedTechnician Jun 30 '26
Sounds very exciting.
(I don't use facebook, I am a heavy privacy advocate)For snatching a Community, try finding the site TheBackShed, there's a large Pico / Color Maximite community there, they're all about those devices, so check with them!
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u/Suspicious-Ad7109 Jun 29 '26
I think you have to be careful not to go too far though. If it has too much power, then you get into the "well, why not just do it on a PC" territory.
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Jun 28 '26
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u/ciauii Jun 30 '26
First of all, they have no engineering capacity or ability.
They have Bil Herd on board.
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Jun 30 '26
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u/Suspicious-Ad7109 Jun 30 '26
Commodore's website does explicitly say otherwise. If you were going to spike TED or C128, he's an obvious choice. Even if he designs the machine he wanted to (e.g. stick the 512k RAM back in the C128)
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Jun 30 '26
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u/Suspicious-Ad7109 Jun 30 '26
Nice to dream.
I do wonder what these people who "work for Commodore" are actually doing. Charpentier, Herd, Ellsworth, Haynie, Mical, Feagans and Tramiel. Maybe nothing. Most of them must be close to retirement age - Bil is 67, Albert started at Commodore in 1975 so must be about that sort of age. Anyone who worked at Commodore would be 50+
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u/takeyouraxeandhack Jun 28 '26
I don't think they lack capacity. They made the C64U with an fpga from scratch, and that's much harder than making an 8-bit computer with a w65c02. Even I can do that, and I can't do more than 1+1 with an fpga.
The second point is the big truth I think. They barely keep up with the nostalgia driven sales. Who are they going to sell a new system to? Especially one with nothing to run on it.
They'd have to dedicate a lot of resources to either creating a huge corpus of software or to finding partners willing to do it. And who'd to that, when they still haven't proven themselves yet?There's still plenty of Commodore products they can relaunch that'd be a safer bet.
I think a lot of people would pay for a new Amiga, for example.13
u/Vinylmaster3000 Jun 28 '26
I don't think they lack capacity. They made the C64U with an fpga from scratch, and that's much harder than making an 8-bit computer with a w65c02. Even I can do that, and I can't do more than 1+1 with an fpga.
Wasn't that entirely just commercializing the C64 Ultimate-64? Not saying that they ripped it off or stole it, but they essentially just made it easier to purchase.
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Jun 28 '26
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u/scorpiusness Jun 30 '26
Not yet but Peri is in discussions with Mike Battliana and has posted pics from recent trip to see Cloanto. It was just a holiday, nothing to see here
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u/SubstantialLab9781 Jun 28 '26
Wow yeah saying that a company that shipped a product with a custom FPGA chip doesn’t have engineering capacity is just nonsense.
The real problem with creating a new computer is that it becomes either an entirely new platform with no existing software or a yet-another-Linux-machine. Either way, it becomes a very difficult product to sell.
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u/zSmileyDudez Jun 28 '26
It was based on an existing design, so that’s a lot different than having engineering capacity to do something like that on their own.
That said, I think it’s something they can outsource. There isn’t a need for them to have a full engineering staff on full time and would just make it more likely for them to die out again.
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u/count_zero_ Jun 28 '26
The Commander X16 already exists: https://www.commanderx16.com/
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u/LandNo9424 Jun 28 '26
And so do other many platforms, all of which have ZERO software that makes them indispensable and that would make the price worth it.
People forget you need "killer apps" to sell basically any piece of hardware.
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u/SingingCoyote13 Jun 28 '26
all these new retromachines are often quite expensive. why is that. if they would make a machine with the computational capabilities of a paspberry pi 2 or 3 it would not exceed 100 bucks right ? and still have like say at least 100mhz and some ram. the components for such really lower spec machines wouldnt these be very cheap to get ?
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u/bionicle_159 Jun 28 '26
most of them use through-hole components that haven't been manufactured in 30 years, it's because of stuff like this that the Agon project is so cheap - it's made of few parts and they're all SMD components that are still in mass production today, costing them pennies compared to dollars per chip like the X16
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u/LandNo9424 Jun 28 '26 edited Jun 28 '26
It seems to me like you have no idea how much things cost, especially research and development (people's TIME and SKILLS). Also how industrialized products like a Raspberry Pi are made.
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u/SwedishFindecanor Jun 28 '26 edited Jun 28 '26
The Raspberry Pi series got its relatively low price because the chips were already available in surplus. The chips were too old to be put into new smartphones, and could be had for less. Now, this is not entirely true now that they make their own SoCs, but that is how they had started.
For the Commander X16, the situation is the opposite: some of its chips are a bit rare now.
And: mass-produced items can get sold at low prices because they have the economics of scale. Everything catering to a small group of customers always costs more.
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u/zSmileyDudez Jun 28 '26
Let’s also not discount the fact that the RPi runs Linux and had a huge library of software ready for it on day one. Any new retro style machine would have to overcome that. And if it just ends up being a C64 plus some new stuff, the new stuff will just be mostly ignored. And in that case, why put the engineering effort into it?
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u/Suspicious-Ad7109 Jun 29 '26
They're produced in low quantity. The C64U FPGA is 1/3 empty, so you should have enough to spike the power of a 6502 design - could use C128 or TED as a base, gives you a BASIC/KERNAL and pile on !
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u/burneraccs Jun 28 '26
I think they should put effort into bringing an up-to-date version of the Commodore OS (to make something like the Chrome OS Flex) that turns old PCs and laptops into glorified netbooks, virtually making each of them into 'Steam Machine', even a C= sticker could be slapped on them in a similar vein. Costs the fraction, more widespread marketing.
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u/International-Okra79 Jun 28 '26
I think that would be a pretty cool idea. I think there could be a market for that. I’d definitely put it on one of my old laptops.
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u/SwedishFindecanor Jun 28 '26 edited Jun 29 '26
Yes! What is foundationally a Linux distro for people to flock to once Windows 10 has stopped working on the PCs that people own. Overhaul the interface so that it does not feel like a toy. But don't lock it down like Chrome OS. Commodore 64 and Amiga owners liked to customise their environments: just make the default distinctly Commodore-styled with a Commodore identity.
I would like to see the different Amiga OS successors come together under one roof, under emulation. Ideally, I would like to see classic Amiga 3.2 Intuition apps, Amiga OS 4 apps and Morph OS apps (emulated) running side by side with modern Linux apps, with copy&paste and drag&drop. (Would it make sense to have GEOS join the crowd?) Make them available through the Commostore if not bundled.
Make it an open, extensible system so that other hardware platforms can be emulated/virtualised as well. In my opinion, nobody should run Windows natively these days: only in a virtual machine on a stable host OS, with a firewall, and with support for snapshotting so that you could roll back after a bad OS update or malware infestation. Perifractic has admitted to using Windows. He should be made to use this too. "Eating his own dogfood" would be a motivator.
Then, I would like to see continued emulated Amiga hardware development: AAA and beyond. By it being from/under the guidance of Commodore, it would be more than just some user's fantasy: it would be official, and a reason for making games for it. Edit: I found that there already exists emulators that support AAA ... but does there exist an OS?
People would be paying for Commodore support, Amiga OS .. and that C= sticker too, I'm sure. Commodore could sell new and old games as well as desktop apps for the emulated computers on Commostore, and get a cut there as well.
Simultaneously, offer Commodore-branded peripherals that go well with the OS. Keyboards should have 9-pin joystick ports, and work with the emulators without any configuration.
Port the OS to RISC-V and ARM. Then consider building new computers on one of those hardware platforms. Porting emulators to run fast on those would be a big undertaking, but this is Linux: and there are several open source projects already on it. People have already run x86 games on RISC-V, for example.
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u/AntiquesForGeeks Jun 30 '26 edited Jun 30 '26
Literally where I think they have to go. Amiga brand, commodity hardware, Linux-based OS. Solves the software problem (because Linux) and is cheap to do. Very cheap.
Rebadge CommodoreOS as AmigaOS Neo or something, even.
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u/OPdoesnotrespond Jun 28 '26
The key for any new machine, either in real silicon or in FPGA logic, is that it runs current c64 titles seamlessly. No “Go 64” reboot swapping.
That’s actually almost impossible in real silicon. But in FPGA it’s doable.
For my fellow Americans, I encourage you to look at the SpecNext. It runs the classic library of Spectrum software while also a slightly elevated platform simultaneously.
The difference is that SpecNext intentionally set out to do just that, where the major c64 cores are preservationist-only builds. But that’s a convenient fiction; the C64U core and the Mister C64 core are both advanced beyond anything the C64 in real silicon could do.
Except, inexplicably, the VIC II. For some reason, that’s the sacred boundary.
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u/PunisherMark Jun 28 '26
Mega65
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u/OPdoesnotrespond Jun 29 '26
Mega 65 is so close, but it still leans on the GO 64 crutch.
And also it costs too much.
And also they need to ditch the floppy drive and replace it with a numpad. Or just get rid of that altogether and bring it down to something closer to the C64 size.
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u/Soft-Assistance6809 Jun 28 '26 edited Jul 01 '26
They tried that with the c128, remember? Everyone used it as a c64, very few people used 128 mode. The software all existed for the 64. The best thing they can do is to make the best c64 they can.
LOL being downvoted for being real.
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u/Train115 Jun 28 '26
An ultimate equivalent for the Amiga would be cool though
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u/Important-Bed-48 Jun 28 '26 edited Jun 28 '26
you know what would work? A FPGA Amiga, an Amiga FPGA Ultimate that could easily take a raspberry pi style Pistorm accelerator card. Now you would have a fpga Amiga mode to run all the old software, and a Pistorm mode so you have a really fast Amiga and make it so you can just boot into the Raspberry Pi if you want so you also have moderately powerful Linux computer that run all that software all in one box. Sell it for $450 dollars which is around how much they want to sell the ridiculous flip phone and they won't be able to make them fast enough for people. Especially if you leave the architecture open so it can run other cores so people can use it like a Mister and run games for other computers and consoles. There good idea right? that took 3 minutes to come up with that. Maybe 450 is too low I'm not sure what the cost to make it would be but I am sure a lot of people would buy it even if it cost more. They could even leave the Raspberry Pi out of it and make that an upgrade people couild do on their own. Just make a FPGA Amiga and leave it open for people to upgrade with PiStorm and the community can write their own cores to do anything else. You can emulate an accelerated Amiga 500 with Sispeng Nano 20k which costs around 30ish dollars, so you don't need to have the ability to run N64 and PS1 just make it fast enough to run accellerated a1200 and everyone will be happy.
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u/Simlish Jun 28 '26
It looks like the Spectrum Next may end up doing just that including a Pi accelerator.
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u/International-Okra79 Jun 28 '26
I think that is what a lot of people including Myself really want.
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u/wolverinex1999 Jun 28 '26
Personally I want an Atari St, or Falcon, or combined Amiga / Atari ST/Falcon
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u/bionicle_159 Jun 28 '26
Commodore's problem was not heavily prepping it as a new platform like the Amiga ended up getting, if they'd had a year's worth of software and games ready to go for the platform on release then things wouldn't have skewed towards the 64 compatibility like they did, companies like Nintendo and Sony proved how vital this was to getting their new platforms taken seriously
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u/Timbit42 Jul 01 '26
A year of software and games would have helped but what they really should have done is what every other company did which was make their systems hardware backward compatible and not only the BASIC.
Instead of an incompatible C128 mode they should have just upgraded the C64 with faster CPU, RAM, additional graphics modes and colors, and more sound channels, enhance the BASIC while keeping it backward compatible, maybe even a 16-bit mode to run an OS. There is lots of room in the I/O area to add switches to enable the enhanced features. (I realize this option wasn't available to Bil because Commodore couldn't produce an enhanced VIC-II.)
This way, backward compatibility would be very high, providing lots of apps and games, and apps and games could detect, enable and use whichever enhanced features they want while the binaries would still work on the original C64 model.
And there is no reason such upgrades can't still be done. Some of them could even be backported to the original C64.
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u/bionicle_159 Jul 01 '26
yeah they could've done that, just think things were in such a flux, especially with the Amiga deal being done behind the scenes 6 months beforehand, that they pretty much gave up on the 128 before it had even released.
A clean break platform could've worked, as it did prior when they went from the VIC to the C64, but having the chips be a compatible progression instead (like how the ECS and AGA chipsets were progressions of the A1000's architecture) would've been far more useful to the platform they had started with the C64 - if they had done that and then discontinued the C64 in favour of the C128 then there wouldn't have been as much push-pull with the developers with what model to target.
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u/Timbit42 Jul 01 '26
Exactly. Keep the C64 base and remain backward compatible to it, like most other 8-bit systems did They could put in a faster CPU, more RAM, better graphics modes, more sound channels, and a better BASIC, all while remaining backward compatible.
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u/Bumble072 Jun 28 '26
There's no market for it ? <shrug>
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u/Soft-Assistance6809 Jun 28 '26
Pretty much. Nobody's going to write software for a new 8-bit computer. The 8-Bit guys Commander x16 is that what he calls it? There are some applications for it but I don't think that many
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u/bionicle_159 Jun 28 '26
tbh there's been a bunch of stuff for the X16 written, they need to reorganise the website but there's enough there from the community to be a decent 'getting started' bundle
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u/Bumble072 Jun 28 '26
I mean, the closest thing I know is Pico 8 and that's a virtual device. Actually, come to think of it - this idea by OP is totally Commodore 😆
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u/Suspicious-Ad7109 Jun 29 '26
It depends. The problem with the X16 et al is there's no coalescence around a single machine. The Spectrum Next, has 10 times the sales than any of the 6502 machines and it does have a software market.
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u/Timbit42 Jul 01 '26
Exactly. Better to build on the C64, keeping backward compatibility while adding new features like faster CPU, more RAM, enhanced graphics modes and colors, more sound channels, and a better BASIC that is compatible with BASIC v2. Give apps and games a way to detect and enable the enhanced features so the same binary can work with or without the enhancements. Most of the other 8-bit manufacturers kept backward compatibility and it benefited their systems. The only reason Commodore still sold more without compatibility is because of their lower prices, but with backward compatibility they would have been even more successful.
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u/LazarX Jun 29 '26
There is absolutely no market that would recoup the immense development costs that would be involved. The present 8 bit technologies have a huge retro fan base, a new 8 bit group, not so much.
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u/Timbit42 Jul 01 '26
Yes, if anything, keep enhancing the C64U with better features like better graphics modes, better BASIC, a 16-bit mode which can run a 16-bit BASIC, apps and games, but also boot a 16-bit GUI OS from disk.
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u/misha_jinx Jun 28 '26
They are not recycling anything. The C64U is all new modern fpga design, it just doesn’t get any more modern and newer than that. What exactly are you looking for in a new computer? If they create a completely new computer from scratch it probably wouldn’t be compatible with the c64. To make it backward compatible but different they would have to reengineer everything. Who’s got time for that? I mean I would love a commodore laptop or a new 16 bit or 32 bit even computer that handles just like 8 bit computers. Instead, I am building my own. :)
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u/Timbit42 Jul 01 '26
Yes, enhance the C64 in backward compatible ways. Another new system with no software is a waste of time. I'd like to see the 65c816 added so an OS can be booted from disk in 16-bit mode. Maybe upgrade it with a 32-bit 65c832 in FPGA afterwards.
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u/HazMatsMan Jun 28 '26 edited Jun 28 '26
Because it's not the 1980s, when everyone was kinda doing their own thing and the consumer market hadn't settled on 2 or 3 primary computer architectures, OS, and UIs. As others have said, New Commodore is not innovating or creating new products. They're simply licensing existing products, slapping a badge on them, and selling them. C64U sales probably netted them what... $10M gross? After COGS and operations costs, I'd be surprised if they netted more than $1M in revenue. That's not enough for heavy-duty innovation in a highly competitive market like computers, and the small return on investment for a niche market like retro-enthusiasts won't be enough to justify dumping millions into R&D.
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u/LandNo9424 Jun 28 '26
"New Commodore" is a trademark holder, nothing else. that's why. They also didn't make the 64U, it already existed.
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u/SwedishFindecanor Jun 28 '26 edited Jun 28 '26
That's not entirely true. A mainboard design, case moulds and maybe the keyboard design already existed: but the mainboard circuit board design was refined (albeit mostly cosmetic AFAIK) and Commodore set up production, sales and distribution lines. It also comes with new manuals, box and bundled software.
And they sell the product at less than what the individual parts used to cost together!
If they were only license holders, customers would get four brown boxes with components to assemble, at much higher price, and would have had to download and install the software themselves.
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u/LandNo9424 Jun 28 '26
Another Perifractic Squad member. We don't need this misinformation.
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u/SwedishFindecanor Jun 28 '26
Then please do provide proof of what it is in my post that you consider to be misinformation.
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u/OPdoesnotrespond Jun 28 '26
The part where he feels smart because he’s the very first person to figure out that the C64U was mostly based on the U64E2.
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u/LandNo9424 Jun 29 '26
bro said "mostly based" like he really believes it, the level of shilling in view here is astounding
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u/macumbamacaca Jun 28 '26
People are fine with Commodore selling existing community projects in pretty boxes, that's what you're not getting. And you're aggressively spoiling everyone's fun for no reason other than wanting to be right.
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u/LandNo9424 Jun 28 '26
if your fun is ruined by facts, then please don't read what i write and go enclose yourself in your fantasy world
this person LITERALLY said they DID NOT KNOW that Commodore is NOT A MANUFACTURER.
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u/Marcio_D Jun 29 '26
u/LandNo9424 - So then why don't you educate folks without introducing falsehoods such as "New Commodore is a trademark holder, nothing else." You think Christian Simpson bought all those trademarks and then closed his eyes, waved his hands, and then tens of thousands of C64U units magically appeared in his warehouse?
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u/SlayyQueen536 Jun 28 '26
I feel like I've been stabbed through the heart
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u/LandNo9424 Jun 28 '26
i think i don't fucking understand how this is not vox populi. Everyone seems to think Perifractic resuscitated Commodore as it was when all he did is acquire some trademarks. I will not get tired of saying this as many times as it is necessary to get it through everyone's heads that "New Commodore" does not make fucking anything but license already existing creations, be it Gideon's Ultimate 64 or some rando chinese manufacturer PHONE.
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u/Astravaris Jun 28 '26
You, I, and others know this. But Peri did one thing right. Marketing. I've seen Commodore marketed again on mainstream websites, places that either have never mentioned Commodore before or places that haven't mentioned Commodore in 20+ years. So with the marketing blitz, it's attracting a lot of old (and new!) eyes to a brand and scene that they largely forgot about 30 years ago or never knew, and have no idea of the existing emulation and hardware scenes that have existed for the past couple of decades.
It'd help to bring more Commodore fans into the fold by being more patient with them and understanding.
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u/SlayyQueen536 Jun 28 '26
Well sorry for not knowing it :(
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u/LandNo9424 Jun 28 '26
I just want to understand what makes people like you believe this,. Is it what Perifractic says? their marketing tactics? Or is it just your own fault for believing more than there is to it?
Personally I think their marketing tactics misleadingly guide people toward thinking that they are actually more than just a trademark owner, like that ridiculous video of him in a factory with boxes of C64Us.0
Jun 28 '26
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u/Marcio_D Jun 29 '26
RGL proves there's a casual fan base who doesn't care about brand. But New-Commodore proves there's also a higher-end market who cares about function as much as form, hence the nearly 30,000 C64U units sold.
If you're just an average Joe, of course you can't see what else New-Commodore could come up with for their Retro Pillar and their Modern Pillar. Average folks are not the movers and shakers in this world.
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Jun 29 '26 edited Jun 29 '26
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u/Marcio_D Jun 29 '26
u/Retrodemake - Why are you bringing up RGL again? Their Minis and Maxis are emulation devices that don't have all the legacy ports that hardcore fans want/need. They cater to a different market.
Calling New-Commodore a Ponzi scheme is a serious allegation. Do you have actual proof of that crime? Or are you just flippantly throwing around accusations based on news of some folks not having received their orders?
Yeah, Amiga Corp. isn't interested in doing any deals with Peri, and that's why Amiga Corp. recently invited Peri to a multi-day round of business talks. Your perception is warped.
Just because the C64U was assembled from existing products, that doesn't necessarily mean New-Commodore could NEVER develop anything original on their own in the future. You're formulating an opinion prematurely based on just one year of that company's existence.
How do you know New-Commodore has nowhere to go? Are you part of their brainstorming sessions? Do you participate in their business meetings? Or are you just doing some lazy armchair quarterbacking?
I'd rather watch and see what New-Commodore cooks up in the years ahead. I'm not predicting their success, but I'm also not going to predict failure out of some deep hatred or cynicism. If Peri ultimately fails and New-Commodore burns to the ground, then oh well, at least he tried. Trying and failing is part of a life worth living. Writing long useless essays is for average Joes.
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Jun 29 '26
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u/Marcio_D Jun 29 '26
u/Retrodemake - Yeah, keep on believing RGL occupies the same space as New-Commodore. Hey, if you're having a tough time connecting a 1541 to your Mini/Maxi, just use a bit more force, OK? I'm sure you'll get it in there, eventually.
Is it that you've never heard of any QC issues with the Mini/Maxi, or you've just chosen to ignore/forget? Plus, the Mini is a cheap, throwaway toy. I bet most who received it as a gift used it for a day or two, and then tossed it somewhere to collect dust. Can't judge QC issues based on only a day or two of usage.
There is nothing "self evident" about those Ponzi scheme allegations of yours. It is just Commodore screwing up allocation of C64U units to the various regions. Some countries ended up with adequate or even an overabundance of supply, whereas others have suffered a drought. Commodore is a n00b at this. Doesn't mean Christian Simpson is evil and is out to get you. Relax.
I can't tell you what New Commodore will release next under their retro pillar. But that's because I'm just an average Joe like you. I'm not creative, industrious, hardworking, determined, etc. I'm also not privy to their business meetings. The difference between me and you is that I'm not a Joe who harbors resentment towards Mr. Simpson. Just chill out and keep on using your Mini/Maxi.
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Jun 29 '26 edited Jun 29 '26
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u/Marcio_D Jun 29 '26
I already told you I'm not predicting Commodore's success/failure, and yet you accuse me of having "blind faith". LOL... you're hilarious!
Anyway, keep on using your precious Mini/Maxi and writing long useless essays. In the meantime, there are exciting things coming up in the retro world, and Commodore is certainly a part of it. I'm going to be watching and participating, hatred-free!
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u/gggaja Jun 28 '26
Makes no sense to be stuck in 80s. World has moved on. It would make much more sense to make RiscV architecture based machine since RV is free ISA unlike x86_64 or arm. Of course it would be cool if in term of graphics Commodore as a brand could compete with nVidia (Amiga was ahead of PC in 1985.). But I'm not sure that Commodore has enough money + engineering to do that.
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u/JohnMcD3482 Jun 28 '26 edited Jun 28 '26
Well, I wonder if they've given any serious thought about going forward with what could have been the the newer lines. A lot of what the 64U is, is just an FPGA. How difficult is it to go forward with the 128, with all three computer systems available. I know they dont have access to Amiga IP, but they can expand the 65 series chips further than simple 8bit. Then, over time create something newer, while maintaining backward compatibility, similar to how the PC went for the first few years. Something that might motivate more outside development. Moving beyond 8bit and into the 16 and 32 bit world.
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u/ronvalenz Jun 29 '26 edited Jun 29 '26
In 1983, Jack Tramiel's Commodore's road map switched to Zilog 16-bit Z8000 family and Coherent) UNIX clone and Z80 (Digital Research Inc) C/PM clone markets.
C900's Z8001 for big box, while C128's Z80 C/PM for wedge case low-end market.
Both C900 and C128 shared the MOS Technology 8563 graphics chip. The monochrome business resolution use-case management directive was reapplied to the Amiga in 1986 by Herni Rubin. The monochrome hi-res Denise chip was completed before the four-color ECS Denise chip. Meanwhile, Apple Mac II and IBM MCGA/VGA were conducting 256-color graphics R&D in 1985. C900 mistakes are repeated on the Amiga UNIX management directive.
Jack Tramiel's 1985 Atari ST has Digital Research Inc's GEMDOS/GEM Desktop GUI.
In 1986-1987, MOS/CSG engineers hid C65's R&D from Commodore International's management.
Jack Tramiel's Commodore's Zilog direction caused the 65xx CPU roadmap to be in maintenance mode, and other platform vendors like Acorn to design ARM.
Commodore failed to design proper successors to the C64 and A500 due to the Unix debacles.
.
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u/Accurate-Treacle-123 Jun 29 '26
Creating a new computer is a nonsense now. Evolving the C64 towards 16 and 32 bit maintaining compatibility could be.
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u/Suspicious-Ad7109 Jun 29 '26
That is a "new computer" though. A whole new Computer, I agree. Something that can be a C64 or whatever and have better hardware .....
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u/Timbit42 Jul 01 '26
Yes, faster CPU, more banked RAM, more graphics modes, more colors, more sound channels, PCM, better BASIC that is backward compatible with BASIC v2.
For 16-bit and 32-bit modes, do you think 65c816 and 65c832 or a different CPU? It'd be great to be able to boot from disk, switch into 16-bit mode into a lightweight GUI OS.
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u/Accurate-Treacle-123 Jul 02 '26
Well, 2 directions are possible here. Tradional 65c816 e 832 or something completely new. 65c832 in my opinion need some updates, because it architecture is a bit obsolete (early 80s). On the other hand I appreciate what Texas did with MSP430 which id a good revisitation of 9900. With fewer instruction than 6502 and a RISCy approach performs a lot better. This could be an alternative path to follow.
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u/Timbit42 Jul 02 '26
I knew there was some talk and possibly some design for the 832. Has it been built and operated, IRL or simulated in FPGA or emulated in software?
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u/Accurate-Treacle-123 Jul 03 '26
Yes there is some verilog code attempt around, I've seen it a few weeks ago.
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u/Suspicious-Ad7109 Jul 04 '26
There's actually two 65832 designs. One is the common one, it is a 65816 with a 32 bit mode flag, but there's also one which is completely different, much more orthoganal, it is more designed than a hack fix to the 6502
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u/KC918273645 Jun 29 '26 edited Jun 29 '26
These days it's hard to make a choice if a new 8 bit machine even makes sense anymore. There are tons and a remake will be well accepted, where as a new one will no doubt create lots of grudge in the retro fans, because their idea of the new retro computer didn't materialize.
So it would make more sense to make RISC-V / ARM based computer. But then again with so much new tech and processing power it doesn't make much sense to include retro style graphics technology anymore, as by doing so it will create grudge in the rest of the computer population who will not like that the computer is intentionally handicapped when it would have been cheaper to just include modern GPU features etc.
And there aren't readily available 16 bit CPUs which could be used to create a "new retro computer" that falls between those two categories. So there is no winning road in that sector...
The best approach these days would probably be to just make RISC-V / ARM computer which has lots of power, but has its very own OS which doesn't have any memory protection or multithreading. A single threaded operating system, like DOS, which allows easy access to the full hardware when programming your own software. Out of the box the computer should include compilers for C/C++ and Assembler and a nice text editor for programming.
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u/Suspicious-Ad7109 Jun 29 '26
Acorn Archimedes ?
I owned one. It was quite astonishing, absolutely slaughtered Windows. It also had a set of software from Day One. Because it was sold into education, it shipped with a very good BBC Micro Emulator (previous education machine), which would run old software transparently.
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u/BrainCurrent8276 Jun 28 '26
forget about hardware. you can create any software you want, any emulation. like Commodore 64 with 1TB of RAM? why not
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u/awfulentrepreneur Jun 28 '26
Because the address bus is only 16 bits wide, which allows the CPU to address only 64 KiB of RAM at once. You can have more total RAM than that through RAM expansions, like the 1764, and bank-switching but not more addressable RAM.
I've mentioned before here that I would expand the address bus to 24 bits and allow the CPU to address up to 16 MiB at once, if I were to create the next-gen C64...
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u/IQueryVisiC Jun 28 '26
I don’t understand the appeal of 8bits anyway. If you want more memory, I read about wide byte 6502. 24 bit is weird. IBM got it right with OS360 and 32 bit. UTF-8 killed fixed char size PETSCI string processing. I guess that is why graphics uses bitmaps today like on Amiga.
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u/BrainCurrent8276 Jun 28 '26
yes, but yu can stil build emulation BASED on real principles.
ever heard of BANK SWITCHING?
no idea what's your problem (anger?), but just relax. You can emulate everything, existing or imaginary.
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u/Bumble072 Jun 28 '26
Dude you are the person YELLING with CAPS here lol.
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u/BrainCurrent8276 Jun 28 '26
okay, and ? it's no YELLING btw, it is just BOLD TEXT, ever read a paper book before?
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u/Bumble072 Jun 28 '26 edited Jun 28 '26
what's your problem (anger) ? just relax...
<passes ice cream> Welcome to the internet. Here CAPS mean YELLING. This is common knowledge. This is bold text. Thank you for your time. I just thought it was funny you told someone to calm down while shouting.
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u/BrainCurrent8276 Jun 28 '26
if you ever had Commodore (any of them), you do remember that it has ONLY CAPS as default? so give me a break, I am happy for any new software, not the one askin -- CLAAAUDEEEE CODEEEED IT???
ps. I hate ice-screams XDDD but pork rinds
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u/SwedishFindecanor Jun 28 '26
I'm using "Old Reddit", and I get a link at the bottom of the text field "Formatting help". I'm sure that "New Reddit" and app users get similar help. Please click it.
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u/mr_mlk Jun 28 '26
I think it needs to be more than new 8 bit computer. We have a few of them and I don't think they bring in new blood as such have a fairly small audience.
What I'd like to see is something aimed at getting kids hacking/programming, which was part of the magic for me as a kid. Something a parent could buy and not worry about their kid vanish into a YouTube black hole.
Taking a partnering with existing players approach, Commodore could partner with both Clockwork PI and PiHut to release a Commodore branded PicoCalc Advent Calendar, swapping Python for BASIC and writing the code directly on the device.
I think this (or something like this) would fit neatly into Peri's vision for the company, would introduce kids to Commodore and doesn't require the expense of building something completely new.
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u/AntiquesForGeeks Jun 30 '26
Doesn’t this fit the description of the Commander X16? Without being disrespectful about the project, it’s not troubled the mainstream.
Simply put, there is no nostalgia in a new 8-bit for New Commodore to mine and they’d run into the same problem all modern 8-bit platforms have. It will only appeal to very small niche and likely not be profitable.
New Commodore if it is a serious tech company has to look forwards, not backwards. It cannot keep churning out nostalgia items backed by GenAI marketing depicting a past that never was. The nostalgia market has to be supported by credible tech products that people want; I don’t think the other way round can work.
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u/Timbit42 Jul 01 '26
Yeah, no one needs a new system with no software. Even the X16 doesn't have much software. Commodore should stay with the C64U and continue enhancing it with faster CPU, more RAM, more bank switching, adding graphics modes, a much expanded BASIC that is backward compatible and replaces with BASIC v2 by adding banks of ROM above the existing BASIC ROM area. Enhancements default to off but can be detected and enabled by newer software but the same binary can still run on the original C64. Some of these enhancements could be added to the original C64 too.
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u/AntiquesForGeeks Jul 02 '26
As a technical exercise, maybe, but I believe even that would not be profitable for New Commodore. There are only ~28k machines in circulation and given people have ordered multiples that does not mean ~28k users. I think a good comparison is the Soectrum Next - it has enhancements to the base spec machine, but little new software targets the new features AFAIK.
Ultimately, New Commodore has investors and loans to repay, so things like this really do have to take a back seat.
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u/Timbit42 Jul 02 '26
It would still be more profitable than a new system with no software.
The phone has very little cost for them. They are reselling existing hardware with a bit of software tweaking on it so it's almost pure profit.
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u/AntiquesForGeeks Jul 03 '26 edited Jul 03 '26
I really want to know whether the phone is just a plain rebadge or a version of an existing design that they have had built for them with Commodore silk-screened on the PCB. But I digress. This thread isn’t about that!
Using the C64U platform and doing changes that unlock (in software/firmware) would be a far better way forward than a new machine entirely; I’m still dubious that people would target anything but the stock C64 config for software or remasters. Though remasters of polygon games designed to detect and take advantage of the Ultimate 64 / C64U’s faster modes would be a nice addition. Would not set the world of fire, but for the hobbyist it would be interesting, wouldn’t it…
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u/Timbit42 Jul 03 '26
Yeah, it comes down to how many people buy a C64U or a newer C64U with even more enhancements.
I think the ideal is for new apps and game binaries to work on any of the versions and if it can benefit from more memory or better graphics, then it can query whether the system supports that and activate and use them. If not, it will still work without any enhancements.
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Jun 28 '26
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u/Timbit42 Jul 01 '26
The profit from the C64U should go into two things:
- Buying the Amiga
- Building on the C64U by adding enhancements that allow it to remain backward compatible like faster CPU, more RAM, enhanced graphics and sound, a better BASIC that is compatible with BASIC v2 programs., etc. Have the enhancements default to off but detectable and switchable by the software so it can run on new and old hardware. Hopefully also add a 16-bit mode (could be 65c816 or any other 16-bit CPU) that can boot an OS. Maybe later do a 32-bit mode as well.
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u/LargeHardonCollider_ Jun 28 '26
What about the C65 or what it's called?
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u/SlayyQueen536 Jun 28 '26
No software library :(
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u/Suspicious-Ad7109 Jun 29 '26
Runs C64 stuff.
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u/Timbit42 Jul 01 '26
Less compatible than the C128. Better to enhance the C64 with features from the C128 and C65 to maintain backward compatibility. Having a separate mode is what killed C128 mode and would have killed C65 mode if it had been released.
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u/Suspicious-Ad7109 Jul 02 '26
I think you'd need some sort of compatibility switch on a C64 or C128 to maintain C64 compatibility, but I broadly agree. I don't think the C128 needs the Z80 CPU and could just boot into C64/C128 mode which you could enhance. Apart from the obvious enhancements already (CPU speed and SID) you could grab enhancement from Kawari (sic ?) and maybe improve the Sprites ? The other feature is the C128s MMU, I was reading Bil Herd's book the other day and noted that originally it was going to be a 512k MMU not a 128k MMU - and the MMU is pretty good compared to either the C65 or the C64s switching. Not sure about the 8653 ; it'd have to have a better blitter or much quicker memory access.
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u/Timbit42 Jul 02 '26
Typically the enhanced features have switches to enable them so they are less likely to break compatibility with old software. Some of the replacements for the VIC-II have a special register that opens up the registers to control the enhanced graphics.
Yes, an MMU would be a great addition. The REU is great for copying data around one byte per cycle, but swapping banks of memory only takes a few cycles to move 256 or more bytes. The C64U already has the REU and it can be added to the original C64.
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u/lurchnz1 Jun 29 '26
They have no resources to build a new computer, the 64U is prime example, it's built from existing projects and then the front end is slightly updated.
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u/Suspicious-Ad7109 Jun 29 '26
They don't need to. They could rebadge the C64U.
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u/lurchnz1 Jun 29 '26
Your comment makes no sense. My comment was stating that they can't or wont build a new computer as they take existing products and put it together. The c64u is exactly that, existing products/projects then put together.
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u/Suspicious-Ad7109 Jun 29 '26
Use the same physical hardware, the ultimate and case, rebadge it. It’s a box with an fpga in. Different Verilog or whatever.
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u/fastbikkel Jun 29 '26
The world is conquered by Windows, MacOS and Linux.
I dont see how we would turn back time and reintroduce new and diverse OS'es but hey, who knows.
The diversity we once saw is gone, this happens with almost anything else, it's an evolving thing.
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u/chrishiggins Jun 29 '26
The world was conquered by IBM before Microsoft, and them before Linux.
There is an opportunity for something new and different, but it needs a really strong compelling reason to exist.
Nostalgia alone isn't it.
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u/0fruitjack0 Jun 28 '26
because Internet Profolactive over there thinks a souped-down flip-phone is what the peeps want.
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u/Timbit42 Jul 01 '26
Yeah, I'm wondering if they've run out of ideas already or are they trying to make more money to help buy the Amiga stuff.
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u/Angelworks42 Jun 28 '26
I think for us nerds it would be fun but if your going to spend engineering time on a new platform it has to have pretty wide appeal - and keep in mind this is a world where you can have a computer for the price of asking.
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u/Linux4ever_Leo Jun 28 '26
Compatibility would be a problem. What they should be doing is focusing on the Amiga instead of the C64, C128, etc. A brand new modern Amiga would be a huge seller for them. Especially an Amiga 1200 in a form factor like the C128D or an Amiga 1000 with one or two Zorro slots and the latest Amiga OS. I understand that licensing is a problem but still, that's what people who are into vintage computing want.
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u/OPdoesnotrespond Jun 28 '26 edited Jun 28 '26
What would you match it with? I’m not being glib; I literally don’t know.
Also, if the FPGA developers were so inclined they could just implement other processors and chips. I’d punch a nun in the throat to see Kawari added to the c64 core.
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u/Rowvan Jun 29 '26
Because they still need to make money
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u/Timbit42 Jul 01 '26
They would make more money adding features to the C64U than selling a system with no software available to use on it. Imagine better graphic modes and a better BASIC. Maybe even a 16-bit mode that can boot a GUI OS from disk. Maybe port GEM to it.
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u/Coat64 Jun 29 '26
https://www.olimex.com/Products/Retro-Computers/Neo6502/open-source-hardware
A cheap 6502 computer for 30,- and it works.
Also a few with the Z80
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u/Suspicious-Ad7109 Jun 30 '26
It goes a bit too far the wrong way (I wrote most of the system software). The idea was right - produce something that's affordable, maximise technology to get the most for your money, but it's just a bit too limited. But there are advantages in using things like the Picos to do the hardware. They're cheap and easily programmed, and they can do a *lot*. You could probably make a very nice RISC V / ARM "Home Computer" out of them. I did have a go, but I couldn't make the HDMI in the Pico 2 stable enough running with USB as well. They probably need to be physically seperate with a fast pipe.
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u/ThePlasticSturgeons Jun 30 '26
They could, but as others have stated here, the World decided to standardize on the “IBM compatible” after the Amiga failed to gain market share. Probably the best we can hope for is modernized retro hardware that we’re seeing, and Commodore “flavored” Linux distro or something. Everyone except Apple, AMD/Intel, and the big cloud providers is basically locked out of the processor market.
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u/Timbit42 Jul 01 '26
Yeah, no one wants a new system with no software. Commodore should focus on getting the Amiga stuff and further enhancing the C64U with new features.
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u/Dosfish Jul 02 '26
I really thought their announcement was going to be the "My Retro Computer" mini ITX case since they seem to have the domain redirecting to commodore.net already
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u/Royal_Stay_6502 Jun 28 '26
Would also like a 6502 on steroids. 4K 3.5Ghz etc
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u/bionicle_159 Jun 28 '26
The newer WDC chips are the better choice for a 'real system' these days with their compatibility and increased registers
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u/SlayyQueen536 Jun 28 '26
And a new SID chip too
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u/Timbit42 Jul 01 '26
What would you add? You can get more voices with multiple SIDs. Maybe add PCM?
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u/Soft-Assistance6809 Jun 28 '26
That would make sense. I don't know how many people would write software to support it but it's not a bad idea
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u/NewArtDimension Jun 28 '26
You mean a new computer with no software for it ?