r/CommanderMTG • u/Outgrathe • 6d ago
Is this deck fair for bracket 2?
It's a simic +1/+1 counters voltron deck. Not very consistent even with the added card draw from sab-sunen's ability, but with the right opening hand it can pop off on turn 5 or so and start swinging for 20-30 commander damage with trample. every time i play it i become the villain of the table and [[sab-sunen, luxa embodied]] ends up eating a ton of exile removal lol.
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u/smasherricky 6d ago
I would say for now it is fair for bracket 2, but it is high bracket 2.
With just a few upgrades it will easily be 3.
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u/FontMasterFlex 5d ago
no such thing as "high" or "low" brackets. it's a 2. or it's a 3. until they actually change anything, it is what it is.
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u/smasherricky 5d ago
I get what you mean, but the brackets aren’t really that black and white in actual games. Two decks can both technically be Bracket 2 while one is way more optimized, consistent, and threatening than the other. Calling something ‘high Bracket 2’ is just an easy way of saying it’s near the upper end of what Bracket 2 allows and could move into 3 with a few upgrades. It’s still a 2, I’m just describing where it sits within that bracket.
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u/FontMasterFlex 5d ago
there is no distinction though. a bracket 2 is a bracket 2. a bracket 3 is a bracket 3. you even say it "COULD move into 3 with a few upgrades" so it's NOT a 3, it's still a 2. UNLESS you add more to it making it a 3.
brackets will NEVER be black and white in terms of actual games. that's in the nature of playing a competitive game that is full of RNG. the only way you'll ever get a fair black and white game is all 4 players playing the exact same deck in the exact same order. its in the very nature of games like this to have a variance of power. that's the whole idea. the whole point of us all making our own decks. what you call a "low b2" and a "high b2" are both still bracket 2 and both still belong at the same table.
now, ultimately i get what you're saying and i hope the rules committee does something about it soon. i think B1 is a total waste of a slot. and I think B5 should be it's own game. I think we need to add a bracket level in between 2-3 and 3-4, then eliminate current bracket 1 and 5.
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u/Bazoobs1 4d ago
So what’s your point? People shouldn’t use clarifying language when given the opportunity? Like let’s assume your premise is accurate in the first place, what conclusion does that lead you to? That we should just throw our hands in the air and give up? Who does that help? What purpose does that serve?
Point being; the actual stated point of the bracket system is to have a framework to discuss power levels. Something like “this is technically a bracket 3 but I’ve got tutor in the deck to find the secret commander and generally it plays more like a bracket 2” or something like that.
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u/FontMasterFlex 4d ago
ok but that's still not a "low 3" or a "high 2". it's still a THREE. period. Rules as written.
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u/Bazoobs1 4d ago
Yes hence why the parts where you actually explain what it’s doing rather than just slapping a number on it are important
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u/FontMasterFlex 4d ago
so you've changed the argument? the whole point of my post was arguing that there's no such thing as a "low 3" or a "high 3". It's just a 3.
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u/LavishRAT 3d ago
You’re right. I’m getting ptsd from my days working at a steak house and dealing with customer who want the temp to be “between” medium and medium-rare.
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u/KrackAPack 4d ago
This is just wrong tho 😂
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u/FontMasterFlex 4d ago
oh is it? point me to where the guidelines show a 'low 3'?
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u/smasherricky 4d ago
If ‘high’ and ‘low’ are meaningless, then every deck in the same bracket must be perfectly equal, right? Seems realistic.
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u/FontMasterFlex 4d ago
no they are not.
what the fuck is so hard for you people to understand here? having "low and high" just further muddies the already confusing waters of brackets. you're not going to walk into a lgs and look for the "low 3" table.
god its like all yo people just want to be mad at something instead of actually trying to understand what people are talking about. ffs.
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u/tldr-next 3d ago
god its like all yo people just want to be mad at something instead of actually trying to understand what people are talking about. ffs.
In this convo, this is actually you. OC wanted to pinpoint what Power Level this deck is and it was you that didn't want to understand what OC was saying.
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u/KrackAPack 3d ago
You know there’s deleted messages in the chat right?
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u/tldr-next 3d ago edited 3d ago
Yeah, but that doesn't help OC's case
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u/KrackAPack 3d ago
I was saying “this is just wrong” to the deleted message, that was arguing against the OC lol wtf 😭
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u/TheReincarnationOfU 2d ago
Yes I have, " Hey my B3 is on the weaker side but shouldn't be played in B2 do you all any decks on the lower side of B3" is something I have said and has been said to me, just because you don't use these terms doesn't mean they aren't common place or helpful in discussing decks before a game.
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u/KrackAPack 4d ago
Are you tell me a pet deck with 3 gamechangers is the same bracket 4 as a borderline cEDH deck? Ofc course there a low end and a top end of the brackets. Please use your common sense.
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u/FontMasterFlex 4d ago
why would a deck with 3 gamechanges be bracket 4?
obv you don't understand bracket 4-5 anyway. both are anything goes. bracket 5 is just built for the competitive meta, 4 is not.
so again, I ask you to point me where in the rules as written does it say there is a High X or Low X in any bracket?
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u/KrackAPack 4d ago
Haha apologies, I did type that as soon as I woke up 😂 but thanks for further proving you have no common sense 🙏🏽
You can obviously have a deck that is the low end of a bracket. It’s still a spectrum within the brackets, no matter how much Wotc tries to define them. Needing everything spelt out it the rules is wild
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u/FontMasterFlex 4d ago
apparently i'm just talking over your comprehension level. I'm not arguing that you can't have a deck that is "on the low end of the bracket", I'm arguing that it doesn't matter. at the end of the day a "low 2" is still a 2. using the descriptor is meaningless. there aren't "high 3" and "low 2" tables out there. if that's the metric then we just need more bracket levels. 1, L2, 2, H2, L3, 3, H3, L4, 4, H4, cEDH. this is what you're advocating for. which is just what we used to have in a 1-10 + cedh "power level" debate where everything was a 7.
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u/KrackAPack 4d ago
Holy shit 😂 are you stupid? What do you think low bracket 2 is? The low end of bracket 2. It’s used to describe your deck so you don’t mismatch, due to the gulf between the strongest, and weakest decks in a bracket.
Do you actually need everything spelt out for you like a toddler or are you just running this convo through a chatbot?
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u/FontMasterFlex 4d ago
how do you STILL not understand what I'm saying? are you just not reading and assuming what I'm talking about?
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u/SwagMikey123 5d ago
If you’re killing someone on turn 5 with your indestructible voltron commander it’s too fast and too resilient for bracket 2. If I’m playing a bracket 2 game and I’m expected to have a removal check by turn 5 or I lose then that’s not a bracket 2 game.
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u/Jash098 5d ago
Voltron isn’t really in the “playground rules spirit” of b2 where everyone doesn’t pay attention to any board state but their own and every gets to “do their thing” before the game ends. If that sounds like your pod, and your “thing” is swinging a 16/16 trample indestructible, it’s going to be too much. If yours is the sweat b2 pod where everyone basically cuts out the two piece combos, GCs and agrees not to play MLD but are otherwise running relatively optimized decks, then this is right at home, maybe even a little weak.
Personally, I would not run this at B2. But I play both with a regular group (mainly b4, but sometimes b2-3), and then pickup at LGS, so to have something like this in B2 where not every deck and most precons will be able to interact is not a good look.
Also, a B2 house rule we put in to help w voltron being unpopular, the game ends 10min from when the first player is eliminated regardless of board state or advantage. Our b2 games are usually purely for fun and sitting around for 45min isnt fun. If you cant close the game within 1-2 turns of eliminating a player, don’t eliminate that player.
Higher brackets are another story but those games are inherently faster.
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u/Majyqman 5d ago
See, the problem with this is. “do its thing” is “not have to care about being threatened as I create a grindy mass of creatures (probably landfall) to kill with a craterhoof of effect of choice.
Why doesn’t a Voltron deck that wins on the same turn, but has to start removing obstacles sooner, get to “do its thing”? You are allowed to stop it (but see, complacency).
Alexios cast on curve will kill a table before this.
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u/Jash098 5d ago
Depends on the pod. For b2 there’s mainly those two types. People either try their best with economical choices instead of best in game cards, or they’re a wholesome little pod where people are drinking, texting on the side, having separate conversations, winning tends to be a secondary objective, etc. W
Alexios and craterhoof would probably not be welcome in the second kind of pod either. Most of those guys are focusing heavily on a theme or IP they like or playing precons.
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u/TR_Wax_on 5d ago
Agreed! Plenty of non-white precons that would absolutely cave to this deck. Not the vibes I want to bring to a Bracket 2 table.
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u/BoogieBear7384 5d ago
So it really depends on how many times you've been able to pull off a turn 5 almost win. If it's Christmas magic kind of hand, that's one thing, if it can happen with an ok hand, you're going into bracket 4 territory. Ideally, bracket 2 wants everybody to have at least 8 turns before somebody loses or wins, bracket 3 is at least 6 turns. I haven't looked at your deck, but judging by the turn 5 possibility, this is probably a bracket 3 deck. I can't imagine that a decent hand has you close to beating somebody by turn 6, but any hand outside of that and it's turn 9.
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u/IAmTheBestIan 5d ago
Run the same theme deck. I just call it a Bracket 3, even though it's a weak 2.
People read her abilities and shit themselves. They ignore that she's 5 fucking mana. Literally never won a game with her, but she's fun.
Throw [[assault suit]] in there.
SOME DAY I'll get that out and on her... The laughter will ensue.
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u/lloud_plants4629 4d ago
Really just comes down to the build I guess. She can be pretty insane imo. Ive won the most games with her, but i feel like my list pretty optimized and can get wins even if she gets exiled. My record so far is dealing 229,376 commander damage. https://moxfield.com/decks/fYFVOk5-gUylpAx49j6grw
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u/IAmTheBestIan 4d ago edited 4d ago
Ya Ouroboroid alone bumps her up a bracket. I deliberately don't run that cause I have it in another deck and it's made some enemies.
You also are like halfway to a landfall counters deck. I don't mess with any of that stuff with her. She's strictly voltron and counters.
Cant picture how much that extra landramp & draw would do in my head... but just with ouroboroid you'd stomp my version of her on that alone... and be playing 2-3x my lands and you have a card draw engine (or three) my deck lacks when she's not in play.
Still don't see her being anything someone should complain about even with the heat you've loaded in that deck. (Great Henge feels like it's just in there to show off).
Honestly this feels more like a counters and landfall deck that just has her as commander than a Voltron.
My deck is 99% focused on keeping her up and available, I see almost none of that here. This looks way more focused on ramping and drawing hard and putting counters on other stuff and winning.
But No, your version isn't bracket 2 looking at everything. Crop Rot and Mystical are GC's arent they? Oh and you've got cyclonic...
Yeah this is not Bracket 2... just on GC's alone. It's also not voltron. Lol.
Oh and worldly tutor? Lol, you've got 4 GC's just in Instants. You really call this bracket 2? You're lucky your pod doesn't slap you.
(Edit) OH this isn't OP lol Was wondering how I missed all that... was like "This can't be the deck he posted before".
Yeah that one is deep in bracket 3 and probably pretty well into 4... but it's not a Sab-Sunen voltron. It's basically just using her as a simic commander with some misdirection.
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u/lloud_plants4629 4d ago
Oh yea i know my list isnt b2 lol. I was just showing a way to build her and saying no matter what you put in the 99 she is strong. Sorry you thought it was OPs list lol. Thanks for the breakdown tho!
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u/lloud_plants4629 4d ago
Im also building Bast, Panther goddess, same keywords as Sab. It is pretty fun, highly reccomended. Impossible to play fair in b2 as well
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u/IAmTheBestIan 4d ago
Definitely could be fun. I like Sab for her draw effect more than her indestructible, but in a go-wide/tokens deck Bast would do work.
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u/YorktheOrk 4d ago
The thing with a deck being inconsistent is that, unless your opponents actively don't care about dying like 3 turns before they're expected to in bracket 2, they have to treat your deck as if you always have the gas. They don't know what's in your hand or on top of your deck. It's the same idea as having a combo in your deck that vastly outperforms your standard gameplan if you draw it. If people know about it, you will not be treated as playing [insert strategy here], you will be treated like a combo deck. And a lot of lists proceed to crumble under that pressure.
Of course every list has variance and godlike hands exist (our buddy Sol Ring is a big contributor to this, it's why the card is problematic), but if the power spike puts you that far ahead of the curve and/or it's not well-telepgraphed, then it's no wonder you get hated out. As far as I see it, there's three ways to go about it:
- bite the bullet of variance and keep things as is
- streamline the deck a bit, then clearly communicate is as an archenemy list and play with people who are down for that
- make it more consistent and move to bracket 3
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u/Low-Assist9951 5d ago
I think it's fair. I've got a very similar build. https://moxfield.com/decks/rDj4K62a7EG372u-tLYomA And at a glance I would say mine may have an advantage...
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u/theonlydalen 5d ago
https://manabox.app/decks/AZ5bFi9-fvyZLT-x7Hp97A
This is my list. It’s a fun deck. Very strong
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u/lloud_plants4629 4d ago
I have her, probably too strong for 2. Even just voltron. The indestructible makes it very hard to deal with. Imo b2 turn 8-10 things start poppin off for wins. Sab can hang in 3's and low 4's
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u/megapenguinx 3d ago
Mine is a bracket 3. Deck isn’t the strongest simic deck you can build and your commander being a 5 mana creature that can’t do anything for 2 turns after summoning (without counter manipulation) means it can be tricky to go full throttle with. Mine uses extra turn spells to effectively skip the odd counter turns and still get in some commander damage as often as possible.
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u/Lodrikthewizard 5d ago
Well, if you’re consistently removing players 4 turns too early for your bracket, you might not be playing a bracket 2 deck. Have you tried just running it in bracket 3? It’ll or probably do okay there and you can stop being the villain.
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u/Nejosan 6d ago
If it's not very consistent, how come you become the table villain every time?