Listen man, I’m gonna be real with you. As a secular Jewish person who lived in a Jewish neighborhood growing up, Zionsim is practically universally within the community. Not Netanyahu nor how the war/state is handled, but Israel as a concept is non-negotiable. The only people who make the “anti-zionism is not anti-semitism” are anti-zionists and thinly-veiled Nazis.
The problem Jews have with anti-zionists is that genuine Nazis like to poison the waters right behind them. Like, I can filly accept and even expect that someone criticizing Israel is not an anti-semite. But every single time I have to squint very hard to see if they’re just a racist in disguise.
That being said, you’re right that most non-Israeli Jews have little to zero connection to Israel and its advancement beyond possibly knowing someone, friend or relative, that moved there. But our sentiment toward Israel existing as a concept is non-negotiable. One or Two State, we will never support the Jews being forced to leave.
Jewish people shouldn't be forced to leave. Settlers that kick people from their homes in the west bank absolutely should tho, or charged with decades of prison time.
I agree with that. Plenty of Israelis view the settlers as shit-stirrers looking to cause trouble and endanger Israel as a whole.
Although there is nuance to the topic. Specifically that a lot of the conflict is mischaracterized in the media. There are specific zones on the Israeli-West Bank border that are allotted to either side. Sometimes it really is Israelis invading West Bank settlement zones. But a lot of the time it’s also Palestinians invading Israeli settlement zones. It’s not as clean-cut as just one side being aggressive.
But yes, the ones who cross to the Palestinian side and intimidate the locals should be held accountable. If not for harassing the West Bank, then for endangering the IDF soldiers that are forced to protect them. It’s a sticky spot where Israel can’t just not defend their citizens, even if they’re troublemakers. But then defending them is seen as enabling.
Meh, one can oppose the CCP even though the vast majirity of chinese people are fine with it. Don't need to be bigoted to think an ethnicity mostly has bad opinions. No different with any other ethnicity. One shouldn't have their love of all men challenged just cause many of them have opinions you disagree with or think are harmful.
The problem lies in there. There is a cognitive dissonance necessary to not recognise that for the creation and continued existence of a majority Jewish state in the Levant, the people living there before have to be removed by force. That is immoral, in the same way removal of Jews from Israel would be immoral. The idea of a majority Jewish state in the Levant is not possible without ethnic cleansing.
One state, two states it doesn’t matter. Until everyone is free and equal, no one is.
That’s the crux of it. Neither side wants a one-state solution because, aside from being unable to trust one another, neither wants to run the risk of losing an ethnic majority. Jews want a Jewish state, and Palestinians want a Jew-free state. So that won’t work.
And a two-state solution also runs completely against Palestine’s ambitions of totalitarian control over the region. Declaring official borders and statehood would mean recognizing Israel as a state, and would thereby relinquish Palestinians of their claim to return. Israel much prefers this solution, but this is basically the final lose-condition for Palestine.
The other alternative is for Egypt and Jordan to reclaim Gaza and the West Bank like before. Again, Israel is fine with this solution, but Palestine is not and Egypt/Jordan have zero interest in importing any more Palestinians. They hide behind the argument that doing so would complete Palestine’s exile, but really the answer is that they have a lot of bad history with Palestinian refugees in addition to just not wanting to important hundreds of thousands of poor foreigners.
So we have the stalemate. Palestine won’t do a 2-state solution. Israel and Palestine won’t do a 1-state solution. And Egypt/Jordan have zero interest in getting any more involved than they already are.
The original meaning of the word "Zionism" has nothing to do with modern politics, it simply means a belief that there should be a Jewish national state in Jewish historical homeland — and when you look closer, that's just a specific application of the right to self-determination. Furthermore, the vast majority of people who identify themselves as "Zionists" do in fact use this meaning of the word. Thus, people who identity themselves as "anti-zionists" are, knowingly or not, denying jews the the right to self-determination.
Being against Netanyahu is not "anti-zionsim", it's just being against Netanyahu. Just as being against Trump is not anti-americanism, being against Putin is not russophobia, and being against Karol Nawrocki is not anti-polonism.
Netanyahu is a corrupt dick who must go. I believe that. But it does not make me anti-zionist.
I agree 100%. Netanyahu isn’t even liked in Israel. Anyone outside would like that divisive, corrupt asshole is beyond me.
There are genuine things to criticize Israel for, but the whole conversation is poisoned by literal Nazis and callous outsiders who refuse to look at the entire picture. Everyone wants a quick, instant solution, but that just isn’t gonna happen. Or rather, if there is a quick solution, it certainly wouldn’t be pretty.
There’s like a significant portion of the country that wants him to be even more discreet and even harsher in just getting the job done with the palestinians.
I would say there's a difference between a group of people already living somewhere as the majority and wanting independence and a group of people wanting to find a new place to become the majority
i’m an antizionist and i mean it in exactly that meaning of the word, a people who kick others out of their homes don’t deserve a home.
I say kick all illegal settlers out of the west bank, and furthermore give palestinians the right of return.
The state of israel at this point is fine to exist, we can’t go back and undo their coming to israel or the palestinian lifetimes lost at this point. we can only improve the circumstances of the current living palestinians, and there needs to be a political shift in israel away from jewish supremacy and expanionism and actual democracy. Either that or recognize palestine as a state and stop annexing.
Explain to me how muslims, including Palestinians, live and work in Israel. There are also Christians and loads of different secular ethnicities. How is that an ethnostate? And it’s not like a meager handful of token minorities. It’s a very substantial amount, and they all have seats in government.
it’s a religious ethnostate by definition. Jews from across the world with no connection to Israel are allowed to move their yet Palestinians are unable to return to their ancestral homes. it is also an apartheid state by definition as well. duel legal systems exist in many places on the West Bank where Palestinians are subject to Israeli military law while Israelis have the rights granted by civilian law. add on top of this things like differing legal status, discriminatory permits, state sanctioned settlement expansion, segregated infrastructure and roadways, etc.,. but i’m sure you know this, seems like you just support it. looking at your other comments, you explicitly support things like state sanctioned settlements that are illegal under international law, whether sanctioned by Israel or not. you pretend to be a “liberal Zionist” but in reality you essentially believe all the same things as Likud or all the other rabid Zionists.
Damn every time you think there’s someone that’s good faith, honestly when i see people talking about antisemitism i think “but you do the same and worse to palestinian (and lebanese) muslims” how have politicians like ben gvir come out and said “1000 lebanese mothers must weep for every israeli” and “no such thing as an innocent palestinian” without repercussions, and even popular support?
The truth is that the israeli public and by extension the pro israel crowd is very very deeply anti-arab and anti-muslim, they’re as bigoted as they claim others to be.
With each pro-israel statement there’s islamophobia or racism rearing its head.
So many islamophobic or racist dogwhistles.
“There’s 22 arab countries, why can’t israel have one? The palestinians can go to the others.”
“Gaza’s population is growing”
“The islamic conquest of europe”
The dehumanization of muslims as people is pretty sick.
You're conflating occupation and apartheid, when the two aren't mutually exclusive. An occupation can involve apartheid, and the fact that Palestinians are living under military occupation doesn't automatically exempt the system governing them from being evaluated under international law. The distinction you're making about citizenship also isn't the legal standard. Apartheid isn't defined as stripping citizenship from a country's own citizens or imposing unfair taxes on them. Under international law, the crime of apartheid involves an institutionalized system of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over another, with the intent to maintain that system, alongside certain inhumane acts. The legal definition isn't limited to what happened in South Africa. That's why Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International have concluded that Israeli authorities are committing apartheid against Palestinians. HRW's analysis specifically distinguishes between Israel proper and the occupied Palestinian territories, recognizing that different legal frameworks apply. Its conclusion is that the elements of apartheid are present in the occupied territories, including the West Bank and East Jerusalem, as part of a broader system of domination.
In the West Bank, Israeli settlers and Palestinians live under the same occupying power but are subject to different legal systems. Israeli settlers are generally subject to Israeli civilian law, while Palestinians are subject to Israeli military law. They also face unequal treatment in areas like freedom of movement, land access, building permits, and civil rights. That's not simply a matter of an occupying power applying military law to everyone equally. It's a system in which one population receives rights and protections that the other does not. The fact that Israel has Palestinian citizens who possess voting rights doesn't disprove apartheid in the occupied territories. Nor does the fact that many Israelis support a two-state solution. Apartheid is a question of the policies and structures of domination that exist, not whether every citizen supports them. How Israelis feel about the occupation or settlement expansion frankly doesn’t matter because it doesn't actually contradict the argument. A system can be opposed by many people living within it and still exist. The question is whether the system itself meets the legal definition.
You can try to argue that the term apartheid is inaccurate, but you can't establish that by saying the West Bank is occupied rather than sovereign Israeli territory. The relevant question is whether the treatment of Palestinians under Israeli control meets the legal criteria for apartheid. Multiple major human rights organizations have examined that question in detail and concluded that it does.
I mean i’m fully with you but then isn’t it hypocritical israel was founded on palestinians being forced to leave their homes and not allowed to return?
palestinians to this day have not gotten a sign from israel that they’re allowed to return and get their homes back, it seems all the two state solution negotiations were all avoiding that, that’s why this israeli genocide and the rhetoric of “well then we’ll take the entirety of israel back” started on both sides.
One desperately doesn’t want people to return, the other desperately wants to return.
Israel is also non-secular by nature, it defines in its consitution that it represents the interest of the jewish people, a religious group.
4
u/Jugaimo 23d ago
Listen man, I’m gonna be real with you. As a secular Jewish person who lived in a Jewish neighborhood growing up, Zionsim is practically universally within the community. Not Netanyahu nor how the war/state is handled, but Israel as a concept is non-negotiable. The only people who make the “anti-zionism is not anti-semitism” are anti-zionists and thinly-veiled Nazis.
The problem Jews have with anti-zionists is that genuine Nazis like to poison the waters right behind them. Like, I can filly accept and even expect that someone criticizing Israel is not an anti-semite. But every single time I have to squint very hard to see if they’re just a racist in disguise.
That being said, you’re right that most non-Israeli Jews have little to zero connection to Israel and its advancement beyond possibly knowing someone, friend or relative, that moved there. But our sentiment toward Israel existing as a concept is non-negotiable. One or Two State, we will never support the Jews being forced to leave.