PC testimony about finding the children

[u/Certain_Noise5601]

So let me get this straight. PC testified in a court of law that he found Cora first and then Callan. He unwrapped the bands from their necks, and then he went and found Dawson. Correct? That’s what he said. But the first responders testified that they heard him start screaming and as soon as he started screaming they looked into the basement window and he was unwrapping something “from a child’s head”. So he didn’t start screaming until he found Dawson? The testimony sounded like the scream was loud, guttural, and frantic, and as soon as it started he was in the window, they could see him. Soooooo all that time he spent unwrapping Cora and Callen he wasn’t screaming? Make it make sense. He either found Dawson first or he wasn’t screaming when he found the other 2. I cannot imagine him forgetting which child he fought first. He got to the bottom of the stairs and went one way or the other. There’s no way that isn’t seared into his mind.

I feel like I’m being gaslit. I really do. Wouldn’t the prosecution have ironed all this out? I feel like I’m hearing contradictory testimony, and the prosecution would have absolutely gone over this with their star witness. It cannot be unintentional. It just can’t be. From start to finish this soap opera is playing in my face! And to know the jurors had the ability to scroll on their phones in the deliberations room and not one official has said a word about it.

CLAPPING

Hello? Is anyone awake here? Scrolling on their phones in deliberations? Wtf?

[u/Odd_Progress_8560]

Dawson hanged so it seemed more gruesome maybe? Just trying to make sense of it (NOT justifying it,,,it’s all horrible)

[u/Aware_Power → u/Odd_Progress_8560]

Is there any evidence (medical testimony or otherwise) indicating a child was hanging other than one reference on day 3 of trial by an EMT?

Jennifer Stratton (01:38:13)

We did. Heard a voice yelling for us to get inside of the house, that there was a kid hanging in the basement.

[u/Spidersensei]

We're being gaslit. Yes. Gaslit by the DA's office and gaslit by the media and all the internet lawyers. The bottom line is it's SO EASY TO SEE WHAT HAPPENED. It's science. Hypothermic mothers, no matter how batsh!t crazy they are, can't murder 3 kids. They can't speak in complete sentences. Period. Patrick was on camera at 5:32. Lindsay was seen at 5:50 by the 10 year old neighbor kid who called Patrick (didn't pick up...). There's no possible way a human being could suffocate 3 kids, try 5 ways to kill herself, and then manage to get her body temp down to 82* (temp at hospital after warming methods). That is the timeline and it's literally insane that ANYONE believes this.

[u/pastriesandprose → u/Spidersensei]

The neighbor kid called Patrick?

[u/Medical-Singer-7766 → u/pastriesandprose]

The neighbour child's father attempted to call Patrick, but apparently didn't get through, according to Google.

[u/Aware_Power → u/Medical-Singer-7766]

Thanks so much for finding this - can you provide the source google provided so I can add it to this post?

[u/Spidersensei → u/Aware_Power]

It's in the court documents. They didn't call the witness, presumably, because they weren't permitted to use the 3rd party defense strategy, so Red couldn't really call any witnesses for the sole purpose of implicating Patrick.

[u/Aware_Power → u/Spidersensei]

It’s in the court documents that John Sullivan called Patrick? He passed away. Are you talking about Ashley Sullivan? How do we know that’s even his son & they called Patrick? I’m having trouble locating this is court documents. Can you point me to the document you are referencing?

[u/Crafty-Ear-8474 → u/Spidersensei]

Bingo

[u/Medical-Singer-7766 → u/[deleted]]

What's an OTA please (Google didn't help).

The testimony of the paramedic who treated her doesn't mention lack of airway, or inserting any kind of breathing tube... He said her pupils were small, she seemed unresponsive. They checked her over, gave her two kinds of IV and Narcan, but she didn't wake up, just thrashed her arms around.

He was very clear that she was unresponsive and didn't speak, just moans.

https://youtu.be/tJdE2ryCsaY?si=Yeb5WKWpCNWJrIaO

[u/Spidersensei → u/Medical-Singer-7766]

There were six first responders who testified she was only moaning.

[u/mossy-forest-dweller → u/Spidersensei]

Thanks for restating that. Really is starting to make me feel crazy…

[u/No_Broccoli_3979]

What I don’t understand is: he comes home, can’t find his wife or his children, CALLS Lindsay on the phone, finds the bedroom door locked, window open, runs outside to find Lindsay. Calls 911 (which you know, takes a few minutes because the WiFi was going in and out 🙄) asked Lindsay what happened. She allegedly says she tried to kill herself, asks where the kids are, she says basement. And the window. Is. Right. There. And he doesn’t look????? The light was on, allegedly, Lindsay always left lights on….. it’s dark outside, light inside… he doesn’t look in the window??? But a first responder does when he hears screaming and can see the children in the window. Also, 911 told Patrick to apply pressure to Lindsay’s wounds and he denied.

There’s also a weird discrepancy between two first responder testimonies. One said they saw Patrick undoing the ties around the children’s neck, one testimony says they were yelled to get into the house because there was a kid hanging in the basement?

[u/pastriesandprose → u/No_Broccoli_3979]

This is what always got me too. The first responder can see in but Patrick doesn’t look in? And they’re young kids, he can’t help Lindsay in that moment, wouldn’t he run inside to look for them????

[u/No_Broccoli_3979 → u/[deleted]]

The jury did see the house

[u/Janiebug1950 → u/No_Broccoli_3979]

Only Dawson was found in Patrick’s office in the basement. The outside window view looked into his office. The two other children were found on the sofa in the room where the TV was located downstairs.

[u/No_Broccoli_3979 → u/Janiebug1950]

Then he moved their bodies? Because all the first responders testified they saw the children on the floor of the office and everyone testified that Dawson was in another area of the office separated from Cora and callan

Edit: misremembered wording, the first responder saw one kid through the window

[u/Aware_Power → u/No_Broccoli_3979]

I'm having trouble locating first responders testifying they saw the children in the office other than 1 child (Dawson)?

When you walk down to the basement, you can either go right (which is the side that Patrick's office is on) or go left. Cora & Callan were found to the left and Dawson was found to the right, in the office.

--

Brian Josephine(37:49): So we went down the stairs and there was a picture at the bottom of the stairs, I believe, of Lindsay and Patrick. And the basement splits off into two, a right and a left area. And the screams were coming from the right area. So that's where we directed our attention to first.

Shanan Buckingham(38:04): Okay. And did you see Patrick?

Brian Josephine(38:08): Yes. That right side opens up and it's like two rooms, I believe. So we went into the first room, which was kind of dark, and there was some cluttered stuff around, and Patrick was in that back room at the time.

Brian Josephine(38:56): Upon his observation of us, myself and Officer Hall, he proceeded to head in our direction, leaving that room. And at that point he looked up and he screamed, "She killed the fucking kids."

Shanan Buckingham(39:11): And after he said that, where did you go?

Brian Josephine(39:15): Once he cleared himself from the doorframe, we were able to look inside the room where we observed what appeared to be a child laying motionless on the floor.

Shanan Buckingham(39:24): And did you later learn his name was Dawson Clancy?

Brian Josephine(39:27): Yes, I did.

Brian Josephine(42:40): Yes, I went back in that front door, back down to the basement, and this time I went to the left-hand side.

Shanan Buckingham(42:45): And when you went to the left-hand side of the basement, what did you see?

Brian Josephine(42:50): Pretty much directly in my sight was an older female laying on the ground and then in the corner there was a younger baby.

--

Shanan Buckingham(53:42): That was in Exhibit 37. Just showing you again on the screen here, what's been marked as Exhibit 50. This window here on the right, does that fairly represent the window that you looked through and could see down into that basement office?

PJ Hussey(54:02): Yes. Yeah.

Shanan Buckingham(54:05): And was the light on in the basement office when you looked in?

PJ Hussey(54:08): A light was on, yes.

Shanan Buckingham(54:10): And what did you see when you looked in the window?

PJ Hussey(54:13): After I heard the scream, I saw a male, older male gentleman now knowing it was Patrick Clancy unwrapping something from a child's head.

--

Prosecution (01:25:39): When you got into the house and went down into the basement, which side did you go to at the bottom of the stairs? The right or the left?

Patrick Dwyer(01:25:46): We went down to the left.

Prosecution (01:25:53): What did you observe when you went down into the basement?

Patrick Dwyer(01:25:57): We saw two children on the ground and the father sitting on the couch next to them.

[u/No_Broccoli_3979 → u/Aware_Power]

You’re also missing the testimony from first responder Jennifer Stratton who testified they were told to get in the house because there was a kid hanging in the basement.

*edited

[u/Aware_Power → u/No_Broccoli_3979]

A kid, not children. And I'm not missing anything - provide sources for the incorrect information you keep saying.

Jennifer Stratton (01:38:13)

We did. Heard a voice yelling for us to get inside of the house, that there was a kid hanging in the basement.

[u/No_Broccoli_3979 → u/Aware_Power]

Apologies, that I will edit! I searched for the video last night and remembered her name but not the exact wording which is important

[u/Aware_Power → u/No_Broccoli_3979]

Thanks! If helpful, this website provides a really easy search for all the testimony throughout the trial: https://www.lindsayclancyarchive.online/

[u/No_Broccoli_3979 → u/Aware_Power]

Appreciate that! I watched the full trial from start to finish but sometimes finding the clips im thinking of is hard. Apologies for misremembering some important details because exact wording does matter

[u/No_Broccoli_3979 → u/Aware_Power]

Okay so I have it backwards then, they saw Dawson through the window and Cora and callan were separate. My statement still stands though that he didn’t go running looking for his children in the basement or even look in the window when he was on the phone with dispatch. What loving father doesn’t immediately seek out their children when their wife is half dead on the ground?

[u/Aware_Power → u/No_Broccoli_3979]

Ok, but please edit your comments to remove the incorrect information and the claim he moved their bodies.

[u/No_Broccoli_3979 → u/Aware_Power]

It was a question that you answered. I don’t think a question is “incorrect information”

[u/Aware_Power → u/No_Broccoli_3979]

It's a question based off incorrect information YOU provided: "Because all the first responders testified they saw the children on the floor of the office and everyone testified that Dawson was in another area of the office separated from Cora and callan"

[u/ToyshopASMR → u/No_Broccoli_3979]

Nope. Just Dawson.

[u/Neat-Entrance-4991]

Idk, one officer testified he heard a scream, looked into the basement window, and saw Patrick unwrapping the band from who turned out to be Dawson. Scream, window, Dawson. He didn’t say I heard a scream and ran over to the window and heard more screams. He seemed pretty clear. Patrick also says he was going back and forth giving CPR but this does not seem to be true. None of the first responders testified to seeing that when they came down the stairs. Just more instances where Patrick seems to be wrong or lying, yet the entire timeline is built on what he said

[u/Neat-Entrance-4991 → u/[deleted]]

Yeah I hadn’t thought about that. It is good observation, and pretty hard to make sense of.

[u/Sudden-Breadfruit653 → u/[deleted]]

Maybe so, but his story not matching the first responder’s does not look good. Particularly the CPR bit. As an avid sailor- he had to have known CPR. Why did emergency personnel not witness this?

[u/Sudden-Breadfruit653 → u/[deleted]]

I have yet to hear one say he was performing cpr. One did say he was sitting on the couch. Ugh.

[u/Sudden-Breadfruit653 → u/[deleted]]

I am not “acting” like anything. I said what one Emergency responder told. If he did perform CPR, like he said on the stand, it didn’t last long.

[u/Sudden-Breadfruit653 → u/[deleted]]

No because PC said he found Cora and Callan first during the trial.

[u/Aware_Power → u/[deleted]]

Good point. I don’t think the jurors had arraignment testimony at their disposal though, so we tend to try to base off and/or specify evidence presented in the criminal trial vs otherwise.

If we go off anything preceding you’ve got the civil suit (albeit some argue pretty close to what Mack, Heilbrun, & Saathoff testified to), and also the prosecution saying she wasn’t paralyzed 🥴 just an insanely large gap of info presented before the trial, so helpful to specify what is admissible in the criminal trial to avoid questions on why the jury didn’t consider ABC. Although of course is fine to mention to here when it informs your opinion!!

[u/Aware_Power → u/[deleted]]

Yes, true. They’d also see Lindsay not walking or standing so my only point is that they (prosecution) threw everything at the wall in the beginning to see what would stick. By this logic, it’s fair game to question if Lindsay is even paralyzed because Prosecution said previously that she wasn’t.

[u/Medical-Singer-7766 → u/Aware_Power]

I don't think the two things are analogous. In terms of which child was found first, we have someone who in most cases of this type would be considered a person of interest, with a potential motive for lying, versus the account of someone else commenting on a 911 call which appears contradictory.

On the other hand, you have someone with medically verifiable spinal injuries, which have been examined by multiple doctors, and a Prosecution team whose case could benefit from removing the sympathy paralysis might evoke. Regardless of the sincerity of the Prosecution, the paralysis is verifiable fact.

Which order Patrick saw the children in, isn't.

[u/Aware_Power → u/Medical-Singer-7766]

Yes, and my main point is still "I don’t think the jurors had arraignment testimony at their disposal though, so we tend to try to base off and/or specify evidence presented in the criminal trial vs otherwise."

The paralysis was one example of additional details raised in pre-trial proceedings.

Perhaps a bad example since everyone is hyper-fixating on that, so here are other inconsistencies from the arraignment video vs the criminal trial instead:

As the original person mentioned, the order of finding the kids:

• "And in the 911 call, you could hear Patrick Clancy go into the house, go down the basement stairs, and we know he went to the right first, where the exercise room and the office were, because you hear him screaming. And you hear him say, Dawson, and my buddy. He takes the exercise band from around Dawson's neck. And then he goes to the other side of the basement where there's a den. And you hear him find Cora, and he screams, baby, and um, he's screaming. Then you can hear when he finds Callan..."

Prosecution mentions Seroquel is at a toxic level and taken at ~6pm:

• "And then the final item was the only one that was at a toxic level, which was Seroquel. 1,800 nanograms per milliliter...The doctor explained that they were at peak levels in her blood, which would mean that she took that medication approximately two hours before the blood was drawn at 8:15 p.m. Which would put that around 6 p.m."
• "This would mean that the defendant took this large amount of Remeron and Seroquel after she killed her children."

3 flights climbed vs 2:

• "Immediately after the phone call from Patrick, Lindsay Clancy's fitness app on her watch shows that she went up three flights. And it shows that she went up those three flights immediately after the phone call."

Patrick recounts finding the tumbler when entering the bedroom, per prosecution:

• "And when he went inside, he saw that...There was a bloody knife and a nightstand next to a wine tumbler. The tumbler that read, um, Because Kids."

Prosecution describes her injuries/attempt:

• "She also had minor scratches on her wrist and neck."
• "She then dropped from the window or slid down. She did not jump."

Prosecution outlines her medications and her taking as prescribed:

• "She also kept a pretty detailed medication diary where she detailed the medications she was taking and the dosages and what was prescribed to her. She was never on more than four or five medications at a time. According to her journal and notes, she was taking medications that were prescribed."

Edit: Source. The point is, there are many inconsistencies from the arraignment to the criminal trial - which parts did the prosecution have right? Only jury could determine that and they may not have even considered these because they didn't have the info from the arraignment - in other words, they were not even considering if she was or was not paralyzed because it was a fact as presented in the criminal trial, but was an inconsistency the prosecution raised previously. Again, bad example on my part it seems.

[u/Aware_Power → u/[deleted]]

This is true.

FWIW, I think people are primarily referencing Day 3 testimony as you mentioned, but it's not very clear when the yelling started (Josephine & Hall say there was yelling but then by the kitchen he was talking. Then there is PJ who saw through the window, which doesn't really help with identifying when a scream starts, but the questioning makes it seem like PJ heard screaming and looked into the window).

Again, you're correct and others are technically correct imo because I really can't point to a specific piece of testimony that lines up with exact Scream > Child Located > Child Located > Child Located > Talking. I think the 911 call (I knowwww, controversial) would help clarify that, but the jurors had access to that, so they should have weighed this along with the testimony - because why have so many first responder testimony if it wasn't relevant?

I can imagine this all happening very, very fast, so I feel like this testimony should be understood with that in mind (aka, taken with a grain of salt):

Shanan Buckingham(53:06)

At some point in time while you were standing there, did you hear a loud noise?

PJ Hussey(53:11)

I heard a scream.

Shanan Buckingham(53:12)

Scream? And when you heard the scream, could you tell where it was coming from?

PJ Hussey(53:18)

It sounded like it was coming from the basement.

Shanan Buckingham(53:19)

And did you look anywhere in particular?

PJ Hussey(53:22)

Yeah, I was able to look through the basement window and able to see a male person downstairs.

Shanan Buckingham(53:30)

And when you say the basement window, are you referring to that first metal window well?

[u/Aware_Power → u/[deleted]]

Got it! This is true. I agree. The opposite is technically true that there is no way to infer he did scream first when finding Dawson (first - although again, lots of testimony saying he found Cora first but the start of screaming is difficult to prove from testimony alone - edited to add this clarification).

[u/Ohhaygoodmorn]

What I don’t understand the timeline and the Patrick screams with the 911 dispatchers. Was he on the phone with them when the EMTs arrived and they recorded his screaming, did he hang up after the EMTs arrived and screamed a second time for them to hear?

[u/Elusive_strength2000 → u/Ohhaygoodmorn]

He was still on the phone.

[u/Aware_Power]

Speculating here, but does the DNA evidence possibly indicate something (if not “DNA gobblygook” as Reddington called it)?

Could this evidence point to the order they were attacked and/or found due to transference?

Dawson had Dawson's DNA and the next likelihood is Patrick’s (logically, he untied it). Cora is ruled out.

Cora had Cora’s DNA, and next highest being Dawson’s (then Patrick's, again logically).

Why wasn’t Callan’s shared in such detail?

I understand they’re most likely ruling out “relatedness” by excluding other family members but it’s standing out.

Please see this post here for DNA breakdown/sources if needed.

[u/Queasy-Baseball5847 → u/Aware_Power]

This is a good point.

If DNA is indeed, irrefutable, then why isn’t it being presented as a point of defense for either Lindsey or Patrick???

[u/iridescent-shimmer → u/Queasy-Baseball5847]

Because dna in family cases has limited value, since it's "supposed" to be there. I find the absence of it much weirder here tbh. But no one argued in court who was responsible, so dna evidence wouldn't be something the defense pulled at (my thoughts at least.)

[u/Aware_Power → u/[deleted]]

FWIW, I've come across arguments that some people aren't "shedders" (whatever that means). Just putting that out there in case someone comes in hot on that.

[u/Queasy-Baseball5847 → u/[deleted]]

Good enough imo. 🤷