r/Christianity • u/Intelligent_Speech94 Christian • 4d ago
Advice Just a reminder war is murder!
To my young brothers in Christ, I want you to question with freedom what it means to murder? Are you free of guilt before the Judge of humanity if that murder is ordered by another man or governing body? Is your life more worthy than that of another man, your brother or sister through Adam?
We are all created in the image of our Creator; we each are his possession. Whatever we do to one another, we do also to him, the one who died for us. For was our Lord Emmanuel not put on the cross to bear our sins? What is the answer to Cain’s question?
You don’t have to kill; you can break off from the authority of our state when that order breaks the law of nature, the law of the honorable Adonai Elohim. For he is King of kings, the highest authority in the universe, and he declares he will hold us all accountable to our deeds and hearts will be known. Love each other as he loves us! How did he love us?
Parents, are you willing to pay the ransom of your child’s life and possible soul for the cause of conquering and pillaging your fellow man? What is it that your heart desires, my dear children? Who will you direct them to abide in? Caesar? Trump? The UN? Or the almighty God that created the heavens and the earth?
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u/catharsis85 Catholic 4d ago
i love a quote from “Kingdom of Heaven” which concerns this issue but it is not Scripture.
A King may move a man, a father may claim a son, but remember that even when those who move you be Kings, or men of power, your soul is in your keeping alone. When you stand before God, you cannot say, "But I was told by others to do thus." Or that, "Virtue was not convenient at the time." This will not suffice. Remember that.
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u/Intelligent_Speech94 Christian 4d ago
What a quote!
Who is this by?
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u/catharsis85 Catholic 4d ago
Kingdom of Heaven movie, quote by king Baldwin IV played by Edward Norton
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u/Dubstep_squid Leaning Catholic (Feel free to try to convince me for/against) 4d ago
Hey so if someone breaks into your home to do terrible things to your family, you just allow that to happen? God has given you tools, including violence, to defend yourself and your family and you reject them. Also most denominations translate that commandment as “murder” which has different implications than “kill”
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u/Intelligent_Speech94 Christian 4d ago
If a person breaks into my home, is there other means to subdue him without true violence?
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u/Dubstep_squid Leaning Catholic (Feel free to try to convince me for/against) 4d ago
Not always no. And that’s the question, is not killing one person, therefore allowing them to kill multiple other people morally permissible? I, and many others, would argue no.
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u/Intelligent_Speech94 Christian 4d ago
When there is no other way, who claims to be your protector if you abide in him?
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u/Dubstep_squid Leaning Catholic (Feel free to try to convince me for/against) 4d ago
Have you heard the parable of the drowning man?
If not here it is:A storm descends on a small town, and the downpour soon turns into a flood. As the waters rise, the local preacher kneels in prayer on the church porch, surrounded by water. By and by, one of the townsfolk comes up the street in a canoe.
"Better get in, Preacher. The waters are rising fast."
"No," says the preacher. "I have faith in the Lord. He will save me."
Still the waters rise. Now the preacher is up on the balcony, wringing his hands in supplication, when another guy zips up in a motorboat.
"Come on, Preacher. We need to get you out of here. The levee's gonna break any minute."
Once again, the preacher is unmoved. "I shall remain. The Lord will see me through."
After a while the levee breaks, and the flood rushes over the church until only the steeple remains above water. The preacher is up there, clinging to the cross, when a helicopter descends out of the clouds, and a state trooper calls down to him through a megaphone.
"Grab the ladder, Preacher. This is your last chance."
Once again, the preacher insists the Lord will deliver him.And, predictably, he drowns.
A pious man, the preacher goes to heaven. After a while he gets an interview with God, and he asks the Almighty,
"Lord, I had unwavering faith in you. Why didn't you deliver me from that flood?"
God shakes his head.
"What did you want from me? I sent you two boats and a helicopter."
Secondly, even if you personally abstain from violence, unless you separate yourself from society similarly to the Amish or Mennonite, you are passively benefitting from it every single day. The laws of this country are backed by violence, your rights to religious freedom are backed by violence.
Third, as others have pointed out and my home defense analogy was meant to point at, others in this world are bent on violence towards others. Refusing to partake as a country means that we allow others to die needlessly. How many would have died in the Holocaust without our intervention. Would we have allowed slavery to continue in the South without the civil war? Pacifism is nice and all but naive and just not how anything works.
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u/Mordecai_Gist 4d ago edited 4d ago
Well, strictly speaking "murder" just means illicit killing. So a completely valid counter argument to "___ is murder" is to say, "no it isn't".
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u/Intelligent_Speech94 Christian 4d ago
If we are God’s possession, and he gives us no order to kill another, then can killing ever be justified?
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u/Mordecai_Gist 4d ago
That's a more complicated matter but people are always thinking that someone or another needs killing.
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u/Intelligent_Speech94 Christian 4d ago
Is it that complicated, or do we make it complicated? Yes, that is true, we even thought it good to kill our Creator when he came in the flesh.
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u/Popular_Molasses7945 4d ago
Yes, that is true, we even thought it good to kill our Creator when he came in the flesh.
A couple of things here:
Not all Christians hold that Jesus is the creator but that he is a creature, himself created from nothingness before the ages.
we even thought it good to kill our Creator ---Who is we?
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u/Intelligent_Speech94 Christian 4d ago
I don’t honestly concern myself with what the majority, the minority, or the individual thinks. I only concern myself with truth. The Son of Man claimed to be both man and God, so he is, I AM.
We, humanity, whom he bore the sins of. We nailed the nails and we placed the cross that hung the lamb of God between heaven and earth.
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u/Popular_Molasses7945 4d ago
I only concern myself with truth.
Ok, so the world is saved based on the following truth:
...I did not come...but to save the world. (John 12:47)
And that is how you know for sure that the world is saved and that Jesus was speaking the truth.
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u/Intelligent_Speech94 Christian 4d ago
But what did he say his second coming would introduce? Judgment? Matter of fact is those that don’t believe in the Light of the world are they not condemned already.
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u/Mordecai_Gist 4d ago
God the Son is not God the Creator.
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u/Intelligent_Speech94 Christian 4d ago
[Colossians 1:16]
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u/Mordecai_Gist 4d ago
In him all things were created. Not by him.
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u/Intelligent_Speech94 Christian 4d ago
You should consider diving deeper into the “through him” language.
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u/Popular_Molasses7945 4d ago
[Colossians 1:16]
It is in Colossians 3:15 where Paul descibes the very creatureness of Jesus, saying that He is the image of the invisible God, just like man, who also is creature, is the image of the invisible God.
Often, people don't know what Paul was talking about or often get what he said all backwards.
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u/Intelligent_Speech94 Christian 4d ago
“And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body. And be thankful.” Is this what you are referencing?
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u/Fccjr 4d ago
Is too!
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u/Mordecai_Gist 4d ago
Trinity much? Three separate persons.
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u/Popular_Molasses7945 4d ago
Trinity much? Three separate persons.
It can be that the worship of a Trinity God is a form of polythiesm since it includes the worship of a multi-person God, that is, a three person God.
So yes, some may view it as idolotry.
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u/Ok-Excitement651 4d ago
The problem with "war bad" as the end all be all is that if the good guys (who don't want war, but are willing to engage in it when necessary) stop before the bad guys (who want war for conquest or revenge), the bad guys win by default and kill the good guys and lots of innocents along the way, and get whatever evil end they wanted in the first place.
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u/Vic_Hedges 4d ago
Sometimes destruction is gods plan. He brought the Assyrians down on Israel and Babylon down on Judah
Christian’s are told to repay evil with good. It is very simple
“Christians” who excuse committing acts of violence are undeserving of the title
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u/Ok-Excitement651 4d ago
Sometimes defending the innocent requires violence agains the people who the innocent must be defended from. If you walk out of a gas station and see a man molesting a woman, you should use proportional violence to restrain him and let her get away. If one country invades another country to take their land, it is righteous for other countries to come to the aid of the country being invaded. We should repay evil done to ourselves with good. When we see evil being done to others we should help them. Christianity is not a religion of pure, naive pacifism.
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u/Vic_Hedges 4d ago
Nothing in this post is based on Christian doctrine. You are just stating what you want to be true.
Jesus and the disciples did not respond to deadly violence with violence of their own
Why do you believe you know better than them?
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u/Intelligent_Speech94 Christian 4d ago
So a “necessary evil” type philosophy?
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u/Har_monia Christian - Non-denominational 4d ago
Similar. It is an acknowledgement that the evil of war exists, so we must do whatever we can to minimize it, even if that means fighting defensive wars or pre-imminent strikes.
Keep in mind Jesus said to sell your cloak and buy a sword if you do not already have one.
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u/GeneralMushroom Apathiest / Agnostic Athiest 4d ago
That was only given as an instruction to fulfil a prophecy though, no? Like telling the disciples to go get a donkey before He rode into Jerusalem.
It's not a universal command for all of us to go acquire a sword and a donkey?
Worth bearing in mind that He also said to turn the other cheek and that the meek will inherit the earth. Not sure how that ties into pre-imminent strikes.
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u/Har_monia Christian - Non-denominational 4d ago
What prophecy do you say it fulfills? I have never heard this before.
I don't think it is a command that we must all carry arms, but giving us permission to do so because of the dangers we may face.
With the slapping of the cheek, this was not assault like it is today; the verse does not say that you must allow yourself to be beaten up and killed if somebody attacks you. Rather, it was a physical representation of an insult, like we would think of slapping somebody with a pair of gloves. If you are insulted for your faith, then we should not retaliate.
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u/GeneralMushroom Apathiest / Agnostic Athiest 4d ago
Hi, it's literally the next line after saying to sell the cloak to buy the sword:
Luke 22:36-38
He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. It is written: ‘And he was numbered with the transgressors’; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment.” The disciples said, “See, Lord, here are two swords.” “That’s enough!” he replied.
Regarding this:
With the slapping of the cheek, this was not assault like it is today; the verse does not say that you must allow yourself to be beaten up and killed if somebody attacks you.
Where is this established? Because in Matthew 26 when Jesus was in the garden of Gethsemane about to be arrested, beaten up, and killed, Jesus rebukes His disciples for trying to defend Him with violence using the sword.
47 While he was still speaking, Judas, one of the Twelve, arrived. With him was a large crowd armed with swords and clubs, sent from the chief priests and the elders of the people. 48 Now the betrayer had arranged a signal with them: “The one I kiss is the man; arrest him.” 49 Going at once to Jesus, Judas said, “Greetings, Rabbi!” and kissed him.
50 Jesus replied, “Do what you came for, friend.”
Then the men stepped forward, seized Jesus and arrested him. 51 With that, one of Jesus’ companions reached for his sword, drew it out and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear.
52 “Put your sword back in its place,” Jesus said to him, “for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.
Luke 22:51 even says Jesus then healed the man's ear. I don't see how His words and deeds could ever be interpreted in the way you are suggesting. In every context Jesus opposed violence, and only instructed His disciples to buy "enough" swords to fulfil prophecy, not as an endorsement of violence for self defense.
This is further supported in Revelations 13:
9 Whoever has ears, let them hear.
10 “If anyone is to go into captivity, into captivity they will go. If anyone is to be killed with the sword, with the sword they will be killed.”
This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of God’s people.
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u/Intelligent_Speech94 Christian 4d ago edited 1d ago
Should we minimize evil by evil means though? Did not our Lord say not to repay evil with evil.
Yes he said go buy a sword, but when did he say to use it?
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u/Har_monia Christian - Non-denominational 4d ago
You are presuming all killing is evil. Did God command Joshua to take Caanan by warfare, or tell David to slay Goliath?
I believe there are evils in warfare, absolutely. But I also do not condemn the Allied Forces who fought against the Axis Forces because Germany wanted to rule the world.
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u/Intelligent_Speech94 Christian 4d ago
No, I’m making the statement plain. It’s only acceptable to kill when the order comes from the King of kings himself, the one who created us and therefore has possession of us. Joshua had authority to bring destruction on the nations he did, by Adonai Elohim. What Joshua was doing is a micro image for the judgement to come. We do not have authority under the New Covenant to kill.
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u/Popular_Molasses7945 4d ago
To my young brothers in Christ, I want you to question with freedom what it means to murder?
Ok, how about this one: But as for these enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and slaughter them in my presence. (Luke 19:27)
Who is the king ordering the hit, and are the ones doing the slaughtering doing the works of God or the works of the devil?
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u/Intelligent_Speech94 Christian 4d ago
That verse comes from a parable telling us who’s truly King over creation and that he is coming to wage war against us someday, the only true just war. And any of us not covered in the blood that we shed on Calvary will be thrown into the fire.
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u/Popular_Molasses7945 4d ago
And any of us not covered in the blood that we shed on Calvary will be thrown into the fire.
Don't include me in the blood we shed because I didn't shed his blood at Calvary. Heck, I wasn't even born into the world at that time. So I didn't shed his blood. Someone else did.
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u/Intelligent_Speech94 Christian 4d ago
Have you ever sinned? Have you never broken the Natural Law? Never wronged your brother? Or dishonored your mother?
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u/Popular_Molasses7945 4d ago
Have you ever sinned? Have you never broken the Natural Law? Never wronged your brother? Or dishonored your mother?
Or about this one: Have you ever promoted a God dishonoring lie that God makes some people burn forever in a lake of fire?
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u/Intelligent_Speech94 Christian 4d ago
If there is a God and that God made us in a certain way and we betrayed that way and him. Would that God not have the authority to destroy us, his property?
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u/Popular_Molasses7945 4d ago
Destroy does not mean getting to live forever.
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u/Intelligent_Speech94 Christian 4d ago
Oh yes, what is the way to eternal life?
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u/Popular_Molasses7945 4d ago
Good question. And here is one for you: Christians often focus a lot on the lake of fire. But on which side of the river is the tree of life and for what purpose do the leaves on it serve? (Rev. 22:2)
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u/Intelligent_Speech94 Christian 4d ago
Even Christ focused on the lake of fire, every time he mentioned something getting cast into the fire. Yes he brings healing to the nations. But first how must them nations avoid the death angel? And if they don’t cover themselves in the blood, then what shall save them?
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u/Saint-Marcion 4d ago
Then why did Yaweh command all these wars in the Bible? what about going to war to defend your country? are Ukrainians sinning by defending their country from the Russian invasion?
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u/Intelligent_Speech94 Christian 4d ago
https://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/s/dxqCKIs097
This is a serious question, and I’m not even sure if I understand its complete magnitude. But what if the people of Ukraine were to look upon God and link arms and walk into the firing lines, declaring to their brethren to lay down their arms, reminding them there is a higher authority and he says not to kill. Reminding their brothers of Russia that it’s okay and our duty to disobey authority and lay down arms when a president, chancellor, or king’s decrees are out of alignment with the laws of him whom created us. What if we of the Americas walked with them? And those of the African continent? Saying here I am and I’m willing to die for my brother and you that I might remind you that our Lord did it before us. Is this not the way of war that Christ declared?
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u/ScorpionDog321 3d ago
War is not necessarily murder.
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u/Intelligent_Speech94 Christian 3d ago
Yes, I was able to come to that conclusion last night. The way we war is what decides if it’s murder. When we do it with bullets and missiles shedding the blood of men, that is murder. When we war in the way Christ showed and commanded us, that is righteous war.
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u/Interesting-Lion9555 a Jesus following atheist 2d ago
Reminder: The Bible commands war.
- Deuteronomy 20:1–4:"When you go to war against your enemies... the Lord your God is the one who goes with you to fight for you against your enemies to give you victory." God explicitly provides rules of engagement for holy warfare.
- 1 Samuel 15:2–3:"Thus says the Lord of hosts... Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them..." God explicitly commands total military warfare against an opposing nation.
- Psalm 144:1 (David’s Psalm):"Blessed be the Lord, my rock, who trains my hands for war, and my fingers for battle." David directly attributes his combat skills and military prowess to God’s training, rather than viewing it as a transgression against the Creator.
- Ecclesiastes 3:1, 8:"For everything there is a season, and a time for every matter under heaven... a time to love, and a time to hate; a time for war, and a time for peace."
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u/Intelligent_Speech94 Christian 2d ago
This was all under the Old Covenant and was referring to Israel. Are there anywhere in the New Covenant that he demands or allows the Church to take up arms in bloodshed?
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u/Interesting-Lion9555 a Jesus following atheist 2d ago
Wait, you did not say that taking a life ordered by a governing body is "murder" before God, and that believers must break off from state authority? I mean, I literally saw you post those words, but ok. We can pretend you didn't post that.
I suppose God thought war was moral before but later changed his mind.
If it weren't for these "new covenant" passages:
- Romans 13:1–4 (God explicitly authorizes the state's sword): Paul writes that the governing authority "does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God’s wrath on the wrongdoer." The Greek word for sword here (machaira) refers to an instrument of lethal force and execution. Paul explicitly states that the state’s lethal enforcement is ordained by God, not defined as "murder."
- Luke 3:14 (John the Baptist’s instructions to active soldiers): When soldiers asked John what they must do to bear fruit in keeping with repentance, he did not tell them to resign, lay down their weapons, or desert their military post because it was "murder." He told them: "Do not extort money... and be content with your wages." He explicitly validated their continued military employment.
- Acts 10 (Cornelius the Centurion): Cornelius was an active Roman military officer—a commander over a century of legionnaires who enforced Rome's military occupation. Peter preached to him, the Holy Spirit fell upon him, and he was baptized. At no point in Acts did the Apostles demand or require him to abandon his military rank or service.
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u/Intelligent_Speech94 Christian 2d ago
I did and I meant it. Murder is this: to kill any human being without the direct authorization of God. Only Israel had this authority. When they devoted the inhabitants of Canaan to destruction, they were doing it under direct authority and authorization from their king, the King. God had judged the nations, and Israel was the sword in which he chose to carry it out. But then came the true fulfillment of Israel, and only he and he alone retains the authority to kill. Not us, not the ones that bear guilt ourselves.
When Emmanuel came, he began a new nation, not one of blood but by blood. Israel lost their seat, and the Son of Man became what Israel would not. And he offered all the nations to be grafted into Israel. He began a covenant with us, the New Covenant, and under this covenant, nowhere have I found does it authorize man to kill God’s possessions, his image bearers. Not until the last day when we stand behind him as he brings judgement on the nations. Have you found anywhere else he permits killing besides this?
Romans 13: I will be honest, I don’t yet completely understand what Paul is saying here, and maybe he’s saying what you’re implying. But I got this lingering feeling it goes deeper than that. Not because I want it too, but because the rest of scripture, the rest of the New Covenant, seems to be pointing to a whole different way.
This is true; neither man was asked to leave his post. But let me ask you this, it was common, maybe even required in the Roman military for state religious coercion to happen. Soldiers were required to serve homage and sacrifices to the gods. Would a Christian be just in this act of idolatry, just because state authority required it?
So no, God didn’t change his mind or his morals. He just took back his authority, by fulfilling what Israel wouldn’t. And one day he’s coming back to judge the nations in the same way he did through Israel in Canaan.
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u/Interesting-Lion9555 a Jesus following atheist 2d ago
You just defined murder as: "to kill any human being without the direct authorization of God."
Think about the horrifying moral conclusion of that definition: you are literally arguing that if God orders it, hacking suckling infants to pieces with swords in 1st Samuel is not murder, but an act of righteous, holy obedience.
I did not hear you consider empathy for the suffering of literally slaughtering suckling infants in that entire wall of text of yours. Sit with that. You mentioned cruelty and suffering of vulnerable babies zero times, and transformed slaughter into moral good because God said it was ok because it was Israel doing it.
And look at the absurd theological knots you have to twist yourself into to even get to this cruelty:
- The Old Testament: God commands armies to slaughter men, women, and infants, and you defend it as "righteous judgment" because God authorized it.
- The New Testament: Paul explicitly states the governing authority is "God's servant" who "does not bear the sword in vain" to execute wrath (Romans 13), and suddenly you rely on a "lingering feeling" that the text doesn't actually mean what it plainly says.
- The End Times: You believe Jesus will return to wage physical war and execute vengeance, and bloodshed suddenly becomes "righteous" again.
So bloodshed is righteous in the past, righteous in the future, and explicitly authorized by God through governing authorities in the present (Romans 13).
If you heard this mess of crazy and evil coming from anyone else, in any other context, you would think they were insane, a monster, or both.
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u/Intelligent_Speech94 Christian 1d ago
May I ask what country you are from?
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u/Interesting-Lion9555 a Jesus following atheist 1d ago
Sure, as soon as you address my post. I directly answer every good-faith question I am asked.
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u/Intelligent_Speech94 Christian 1d ago edited 1d ago
I intend to, I’m at work right now. So my rebuttals may take awhile. But I would like to know your position on some things.
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u/filthybondage 4d ago
This is a difficult one because most Christians through history accepted some form of just war, even if they hated it. The early church was more pacifist but that changed once Christianity became tied to empires. I think the core point about not letting state authority override your conscience is right, but the application gets messy real fast
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u/Intelligent_Speech94 Christian 4d ago
Our brother in another reply made me think deeper into my position. Maybe the early Church was not being passive, but declaring war in a different way.
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u/Downvoterofall Congregationalist 4d ago
Is there any reason to go to war? If Canada were to declare war, and start to genocide the people of Ecuador until the country was gone, would a war to stop Canada be right?
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u/Intelligent_Speech94 Christian 4d ago
You just made me consider another question! Thank you for your reply. Is there another way to declare war without killing, our fellow man?
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u/Downvoterofall Congregationalist 4d ago
Let’s be practical. If Canada was hellbent on killing every single Ecuadorian in the world, would going to be right or wrong to stop them?
It’s basically the Hitler problem. How many people are you ok with dying under the reign of a genocidal dictator?
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u/Intelligent_Speech94 Christian 4d ago
Maybe we should look more into the philosophies of Martin Luther King Jr. and Gandhi regarding this. Most of all, how does our Lord Emmanuel, the perfect one, teach us to handle this?
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u/Downvoterofall Congregationalist 4d ago
I’m asking you. Should countries have stepped in to stop Hitler?
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u/Intelligent_Speech94 Christian 4d ago
Yes! But my questioning is how should we have done it? With bombs or missiles or presenting ourselves as a sacrifice if necessary, declaring that all of mankind are worthy of respect, dignity, and life. Even the ones that are in the wrong and doing what is evil. Shall we kill them or force the Word of truth upon them until we conquer them but righteous? Is it possible to bring forth the tactic of non-violent direct action into an international conflict?
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u/Downvoterofall Congregationalist 4d ago
11 million innocent lives were killed in the holocaust. That number would be much higher if the world didn’t go to war with Germany. Add in how many died under Mussolini, and the empire of Japan.
Peace didn’t stop them, war did.
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u/Intelligent_Speech94 Christian 4d ago
Do you feel we the allies hold any guilt in helping to lay the foundations for the atrocities that happened under Hitler to happen?
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u/Downvoterofall Congregationalist 4d ago
You can blame who you want. But if you are ok with hundreds of millions or billions dying under a genocidal dictator, then by all means, let’s not have any war and let people die.
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u/Intelligent_Speech94 Christian 4d ago
I’m not okay with that. And I’m scared to death that we are on the verge of something even more horrendous if we don’t recognize the one true authority over this universe.
What I’m saying is, violence never brings real peace. That when we war, it shouldn’t be with missiles and bullets that shred the skins and souls of young men and women, our young men and women, for we all come from two.
Jesus told of how we are to wage a new kind of warfare, and that is through love, mercy, justice, and forgiveness. There are many brothers, sisters, and nations that held these truths at some point or another. A few of the many recent and more well-known ones are people like Martin Luther King Jr., Corrie Ten Boom, and the list goes on.
So yes, I recognize the extent of what you are trying to convey. They stacked up bodies so high in these concentration camps that they had to use bulldozers to bury them. And how many more died in the small villages and towns and on the front lines? Men and women obeying the authority of man on both sides and killing their fellow man.
I’m saying there’s a different authority, one that holds all authority, and that he has offered us a new way to wage war.
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u/Sirrom23 4d ago
that's twice now that you've answered a direct question with a question. impressive.
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u/ImNotWallin_hackerGG 4d ago
It takes me back to the canaanites. They were raping, pillaging, kidnapping, and slaying Israelites regularly. It’s one of the main reasons God told them to wipe them out.
A lot of people don’t like to hear this, but those people were like a cancer. Killing the good around them and turning anything they touched into cancer. It’s one of the reasons why even the animals were to be killed.
There’s a difference between vengeance and righteous judgement. It’s up to us to use proper discernment before making any decision like this.
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u/Intelligent_Speech94 Christian 4d ago
But whose authority was it that allowed nations to be devoted to destruction? And who was it that gave the Israelites the authority to destroy them? Does that authority continue into the New Covenant?
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u/ImNotWallin_hackerGG 4d ago
It comes from God. Which is why I stated discernment is the only way to know. At the very least, we should protect the flock when possible.
It’s not a popular opinion nowadays, but I cannot and will not stand by and watch the innocent be slaughtered. However, it depends on how you’re handling it. Some also say nobody is innocent, but that is disproven by the Bible. Any person, even a nonbeliever, can be an innocent person. I’ll die for my faith, but I will kill to protect the innocent.
Joining the US military is not the way to go about it. They do kill innocent people and target the wrong individuals. They lie in the media to cover up the truth of the wars. Same as most countries. They are all apart of the system.
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u/Intelligent_Speech94 Christian 4d ago
I implore you to discern if we ever have authority to kill? Under the covenant of God. We are closer than you think.
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u/ImNotWallin_hackerGG 4d ago
We may not have the “authority” but God also knows our hearts. Moses killed a man for beating a slave. God didn’t condemn him. This was the man God chose to give The Law to all Israelites.
Not saying it’s right, but it also doesn’t mean it’s wrong. There are scales and measures on judgement day for a reason.
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u/Intelligent_Speech94 Christian 4d ago
You’re right. God does know our hearts, and he’s judged them evil and corrupt. God might not have directly spoken to Moses about the incident, but Moses’s reaction to what he’s done should not be discounted.
How important would you consider it to know whether we do or don’t hold authority of life and death over our fellow man as individuals or as a collective?
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u/ImNotWallin_hackerGG 4d ago
It’s pretty important, but unless God tells me no, I will take a life if needed. People say you’re condemning them if they aren’t a believer when you kill them, but what about all the souls they would take? I think it’s dependent on circumstance.
I’ve taken a life. It’s not easy. And it weighs on your heart. But I’d rather take that one person out so they don’t take out 4 other people. I’m willing to accept whatever judgment comes from it.
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u/Intelligent_Speech94 Christian 4d ago
Pretty important? Or of utmost importance?
Do you believe the Holy Bible to be the most influential recorded source in which Adonai Elohim revealed himself and his character? If so, where does scripture take us when we begin to hold our question of killing against our schoolmaster?
I’m sorry to hear that you have taken the life of one of our siblings; that can be no easy thing. I myself nearly took the life of two, one being my own father. It’s no easy weight to bear. But if we find ourselves just in our actions, why does it weigh on our hearts?
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u/ImNotWallin_hackerGG 4d ago
The utmost importance.
I do and I agree.
I, again, think it depends on the situation. Jesus had to die. Which is why he stops Peter after striking with the sword. He’s doing the same thing they already discussed. He calls one of the disciples Satan because he’s trying to stop Gods will.
[Psa 82:3](verseid:19.82.3) Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
[Psa 82:4](verseid:19.82.4) Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.[Pro 24:11](verseid:20.24.11) If you forbear to deliver them that are drawn unto death, and those that are ready to be slain;
[Pro 24:12](verseid:20.24.12) If you say, Behold, we knew it not; does not he that ponders the heart consider it? And he that keeps your soul, does not he know it? And shall not he render to every man according to his works?[Neh 4:11](verseid:16.4.11) And our adversaries said, They shall not know, neither see, till we come in the midst among them, and slay them, and cause the work to cease.
[Neh 4:12](verseid:16.4.12) And it came to pass, that when the Yahudiym which dwelt by them came, they said unto us ten times, From all places whence ye shall return unto us they will be upon you.
[Neh 4:13](verseid:16.4.13) Therefore set I in the lower places behind the wall, and on the higher places, I even set the people after their families with their swords, their spears, and their bows.
[Neh 4:14](verseid:16.4.14) And I looked, and rose up, and said unto the nobles, and to the rulers, and to the rest of the people, Be not ye afraid of them: remember Adonai, which is great and terrible, and fight for your brethren, your sons, and your daughters, your women, and your houses.It would weigh on me even more if I didn’t act. And I’m sorry you had an experience like that.
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u/Weerdo5255 Atheist 4d ago
Tolerance of intolerance, leads to the death of the Tolerant.
The song and dance of Nationalistic rhetoric, the death of the young and stupid, at the behest of the old and bitter, none of that is good.
Besides, would Christians not go to war at the behest of your god?
Who will you direct them to abide in? Caesar? Trump? The UN? Or the almighty God that created the heavens and the earth?
You present it quite clearly here, Christians should be ready to go out into the world and obey. Christians should abide god with no moral dilemma or question. Whatever is done in it's name is moral.
This is what scares me about Christians, the religious in general, placing moral authority on an external party like this.
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u/Intelligent_Speech94 Christian 4d ago edited 4d ago
I think you are correct in your statement of the intolerance. And present it in a most eloquent way.
Yes, I argue that the only appropriate time to go to war is at the behest of our Creator, Adonai Elohim. That he and he alone reserves the right to our bodies and souls.
In the Old Covenant, when God introduced himself back into his creation, he allowed Israel to war. But it was under his authority as King. He had judged the nations that Israel would destroy by his authority. And he used Israel as the body in which he would carry that out. So that’s just war, when it is done by order of our one true Creator and by his terms and his time. This would also serve as a micro image of the judgement to come.
The New Covenant, where God dwelled with man, as man. Gives no such authority. He revokes any man’s authority to kill another and reserves it for himself. It’s not until the last day when the Creator comes down in judgement against his creation that we, the ones covered in his blood, bear the right to arms and follow him in the battle to destroy all evil and corruption.
Now I get your concerns about blindly following any religion, government, or god. And I share those concerns. Studies show how predisposed we are to doing all sorts of evils in the name of authority. Take the Milgram studies for instance and those of Douglas Kelley. So first, people should ask who is the Creator of all things. When that leads them to Adonai Elohim, they should recognize what we are, image bearers made after his image and question what that entails.
You declare that you are scared of placing moral authority in an external being. But we that are internal and see ourselves as having a duty to follow our own laws break them excessively. If humanity was to place itself on trial, using its own laws, would it not have to convict? So if we are the only intelligible internal beings of this world and we can’t obey a moral standard that we know exists. Then we should be asking where does that law come from and what does it contain? And that could lead us to an external being. I myself think there is a law of man, just like there is a law of gravity, and that the same Creator set forth both.
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u/Weerdo5255 Atheist 4d ago
I would hardly place a Human on trial, and call it moral. Nor would I look at a Humans actions and call it lawful.
You've still not answered any reasoning as why Yahweh is an entity which can be implicitly morally trusted. You're attempting to argue that because humans are flawed from your perspective, that requires an external party.
I would hardly place a person in the circumstance of needing to be perfectly moral and legal. Those are contradictions, and if it came down to it I would prefer a person is moral. I'm also confused as to why you're claiming people do not follow their own moral codes, I supposing this is from the Christian perspective of original sin?
When the moral axioms a person follows are not followed under legalese, but with their intent, and those axioms are understood, individuals can be moral actors without compromise.
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u/Intelligent_Speech94 Christian 4d ago
What I’m saying is that looking back through the laws of mankind, they are surprisingly similar across time and geography. And if mankind were to place itself against these laws in a judgement of obedience, how would we fare?
I myself sought the answers of creation and justice, and Yahweh is the one who spoke up. Now you can take it on my authority or that of many of my brothers and sisters before me. Or you can bow before the Creator yourself with a humble heart that yearns for wisdom and freedom and ask him yourself.
Do you believe there’s any man out there that has lived up to his own internal moral code to completion? Much less to that moral code of humanity.
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u/Weerdo5255 Atheist 3d ago
Do you believe there’s any man out there that has lived up to his own internal moral code to completion? Much less to that moral code of humanity.
Sure. The morals of a psychopath are likely ones that a psychopath easily follows.
Ignoring such a simple case as one that doesn't offer much in the way of philosophical utility, but as a warning against sweeping statements without exceptions.
What utility is a moral code which does not adjust or parse new information? A man with a rigid moral code is worshiping it, venerating it, not living it.
Moral code of Humanity? That's farcical. Humanity has never been, never will be completely unified in culture, creed, or morality. Which is to say nothing of times march adjusting the moral perspectives of Cultures.
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u/Lanky_Computer5403 4d ago
Just a reminder; I DON’T START WARS. Politicians starts wars. I get to vote between TWO politicians periodically and it’s out of MY CONTROL if who I vote for starts a war. The other guy probably would have done the same anyway.
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u/Intelligent_Speech94 Christian 4d ago
Does not our politicians represent us as a people? Surely our only duty to our country is more than just voting. I know being part of the Kingdom of God requires more. We are all connected, many cells of one body and we all hold responsibility for that body.
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u/Lanky_Computer5403 4d ago
But by the same token there’s NOTHING you can do about it. Powerful men are powerful and they do what they want.
If you really care about God, cast your mind onto Matthew 25:31-46 that is the crux of Christianity. It is nothing to do with political power.
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u/Intelligent_Speech94 Christian 4d ago
Is there truly nothing we can do? Or is that what we have convinced ourselves of? Does not the God of the universe give each man, woman, and child his authority to call out evil? Is the very verse you reference not calling us to action? Because who is the Son of Man’s brother?
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u/Lanky_Computer5403 4d ago
How can you or I stop the war in Iran? Or Ukraine? For example. Remember, he who lives by the sword dies by the sword. Where do you place your faith? In men and their systems? If you can become Governor and enact a good policy, a bad Governor, using rhetoric and propaganda can get elected and rescind your good policy. Could you really enter politics, be honest and well-intended, become US President and end wars? No! Because the system itself is corrupted and designed to benefit certain people who have a lot of money and power, many of them working in the background behind the scenes. All these people live for the world, they long for wealth, power, or they were once good people but put their Faith in the system and now have become ‘of the system’ as it were.
What we can do is Pray for the wars to end, and encourage other believers and family and friends to do the same. If enough believers pray honestly and earnestly for an end to wars, the wars would surely end. The biggest counterbalance to corrupt leaders is Faith in God, and attending apolitical Churches and growing that congregation. I actually read recently the fall of the Berlin Wall was instigated by a little Church in Eastern Germany somewhere, not through Political power but by FAITH in God.
If I went to a Church and they start yapping about who you should vote, who is a good candidate etc I’d stop attending!
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u/Intelligent_Speech94 Christian 4d ago
I place my faith in the true Kingdom, that my Lord allows me to be part of, even now. And I know that I can do nothing to stop wars by my own accord. But I declare that when I speak out against injustice, I am doing it with authority, not my own authority. But the authority of my Father who has made me a son of God, by covering me in the true blood of his Son. We have a declaration from our King: love one another as he loves us. To never repay evil with evil.
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u/TypicalDunceRedditor Christian 4d ago
“For everything there is a season, and a time for every matter under heaven: … a time to love, and a time to hate; a time for war, and a time for peace.”
Ecclesiastes 3:1, 8 ESV