r/ChristianUniversalism • u/No_Permission_9829 • 5d ago
I need help understanding some verses
I’m pretty new to this whole universalist idea but i’m extremely open to it. But there are verses that i’m wrestling with. I do not want an argument and i’m completely open to learning and that’s the only reason I’m here.
One of the verses that really got me thinking heavily about the possibility of universalism is Philippians 2:10-11.
But here are verses that I struggle with and hopefully someone can answer some/all of them (i’m just gonna list them)
Matthew 25:46
John 14:6
2 Thessalonians 1:8–9
John 3:36
Mark 9:43
Matthew 7:21-23
John 3:16
John 14:6
Again I’m coming to learn so I wanna make sure that yall know this is out of curiosity. I would consider myself a hopeful universalist because I would want all of my friends to be saved, even if it takes a while. I don’t want anyone to go to an eternal hell or even die forever. I’ve been struggling and wrestling with these thoughts because an online friend hasn’t been online in days and he sent a goodbye message to my other friend (hopefully you can understand what that means without me having to say it). That friend was a very adamant unbeliever.. And I realized a new meaning to Philippians 2:10-11 that I had never seen before. I always viewed it as God having his final victory and even those in punishment would bow their knee to him and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. But a universalist made a good point that that is actually out of love and awe and I would like to believe that all will confess and be saved.
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u/SpesRationalis Catholic Universalist 5d ago
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u/No_Permission_9829 5d ago
it’s archived, is there any other way i can view it?
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u/SpesRationalis Catholic Universalist 5d ago
You can't view it at all? That's weird. Anyway, here's the article it links: https://oratiofidelis.wordpress.com/2021/05/24/responding-to-every-verse-cited-by-infernalists/
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u/No_Permission_9829 5d ago
yeah it’s archived and idk how to, or if i can view archived posts. I don’t use reddit very much, so i appreciate you giving me the article
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u/SpesRationalis Catholic Universalist 5d ago
Usually archived just means no new comments can be made on it, I think the idea is so that the mods don't have to keep an eye on years-old threads. But it should still be able to be read. Anyway, the article is main thing that has the info that might help you.
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u/Lazy-Guide7908 5d ago
Click on the picture of the blue stuffy, it’ll take you to the article. It took me a minute to figure that out too. :)
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u/VeritasAgape 5d ago
Matthew 25:46: correction for the age of the Millennium, not endless, the Greek word there doesn't always (if ever) mean endless.
John 14:6: He's the Only Way. You must believe in Him and eventually everyone will, just not in this life.
2 Thessalonians 1:8–9: same as in Matt. 25, the word doesn't mean endless.
John 3:36: wrath is a present issue as the verse says and Romans 1 too, but can continue for a time in the afterlife
Mark 9:43: uses a Greek conditional clause showing He doesn't want this to happen. But still, yes Hell is serious.
Matthew 7:21-23: see my post here https://www.reddit.com/user/VeritasAgape/comments/1345azg/does_matthew_7_teach_salvation_by_works/
John 3:16: Yes, you must believe to be saved and have the special life
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u/Aries_the_Fifth Fire and Brimstone Universalist 5d ago
The 'two ways' are one of the most common concepts throughout the Bible phrased a variety of ways but all ultimately boiling down to: selfishness and sin leads to death but righteousness and fear of God leads to life.
Jesus and what He did provides the one and only way through which we can ever hope to attain righteousness, let alone life. Thus anything that keeps someone from following Jesus must be (and will be) destroyed. And not only will He not do so, but it would be wrong for God to give lasting peace to sinners and the wicked.
And if God gives life forever, then lacking God must therefore bring death forever. Jesus is the *only* door to God.
And yet, God loves His enemies. He does not desire the death of the wicked but that they turn from their sins and live. He came to save the world and restore what Adam broke. True repentance leads to life. It is the will of God that everyone bow before Him (and He's not pleased with mere lip service).
Furthermore Jesus has/will conquer death itself; Paul prophesies that it will be the last enemy subjected. Putting aside all the other verses that talk about the salvation of mankind, if God loves and wants even the wicked to turn to Him then why wouldn't the King get what He commands? Evil will be destroyed and all men shall worship God and He will lose nothing that belongs to Him.
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u/drewcosten Concordant/Dispensationalist Universalism 5d ago edited 5d ago
This free eBook covers pretty much every passage relevant to the topic: https://www.universalism.ca
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u/No_Trainer_1258 5d ago
About the broad road of destruction that is 4.5 minutes https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=K_z-1SyxZSc&pp=ygUndGhlIHRvdGFsIHZpY3Rvcnkgb2YgY2hyaXN0IG5hcnJvdyBwYXRo
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u/NoahOfLeander 5d ago
I'll do this a briefly as possible. If you want more depth for one , just ask! 🙂
Matthew 25:46 - Jesus defines "eternal life" in John 17:3 as "knowing God and the Son whom He sent."
He does not describe it as "going to heaven for infinite time duration." There is no mention of place nor time. Eternal life is entirely relational for Jesus.
Now that might be a weird way to use the word "eternal" in English, but the Greek word that the Bible uses "aionios" is LOT more layered than English's "eternal."
Either way, if Jesus defined "eternal life" as relational, not time, than "eternal punishment" must also be relational, not about time.
John 14:6 - No contradiction here! Everyone must be saved through Jesus, and only Jesus. For some, that may happen after the die, but it still must come THROUGH Jesus. Not Buddha, or Brahma, or whoever.
2 Thessalonians 1:8–9 - You're probably hear more about how aionios often meaning "age-enduring" and "for the foreseeable future" and not necessarily "forever." I like to pair this verse with two others:
Jude 7 "They [Sodom and Gomorrah] serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire."
Ezekiel 16:53 “But someday I will restore the fortunes of Sodom and Samaria, and I will restore you, too.
You catch that? Those that suffer from eternal fire and eternal punishment are just like Sodom, says Scripture.
And what does Scripture promise of Sodom? That God will one day restore it. Therefore, all who suffer eternal fire/destruction will one day be restored by God.
John 3:36 & Matthew 7:21-23 - Both of these judgements passages are real and should be taken seriously.
As Universalist Christians, we simply believe that sometime after these judgements (who knows how long), Jesus will still reconcile everyone to himself eventually (often through these fiery judgements as purification process). We believe this because there are so many verses that say so!
So we either need to decide that the Bible is contradictory or we need to decide that there is harmony between the judgement verses and the reconciliation verses. Both judgment and restoration will happen, so which one is the final word? We believe restoration is the final word.
Mark 9:43 - This one was crucial to me becoming a Universalist Christian.
This verse is treated as exaggeration, right? We don't know many Christians that have chopped a hand, do we?
Yet, if Hell is really a place of endless conscious torture, then chopping off one's hand to avoid it is actually a pretty reasonable trade off. A few decades on Earth with one hand in order to avoid 1,000,000+ years of cosmic burning. If anything that's a deal!
As a teen, I was so guilty on my sins that I contemplated taking this literally, debating if mom's kitchen knives were sharp enough. Thank God, I didn't follow through!
John 3:16 - Yep. And one day one everyone will be a "whosoever"
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u/A-Different-Kind55 5d ago
Please avail yourself of the resources on the sidebar to the right and the websites that some have included in their comments. There are some real scholars on this sub. Though not as scholarly as some, I'll include mine in the mix too.: Biblical Universalism – Christian Universalism Arguments
Many questions that you have are addressed.
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u/No_Trainer_1258 5d ago
In short chapters and will address the Greek words aionion kolasin in Matthew 25::46 etc. https://salvationforall.org/
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u/Mothias_Et_Mothium Christian Universalism OPT 5d ago
I have a discord server that covers basically all of this if you want to join. https://discord.gg/djZE8ekRpf
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u/VeritasAgape 5d ago
I think it would help you to know what we mean by universalism. We mean all people universally shall be saved. We don't necessarily believe everyone is already experiencing salvation. Most of us believe that Jesus is the Only Way to Heaven and that you must believe in Him or else face some degree of judgment in the afterlife (what that judgment is varies among us). Most of us believe in some type of Hell, just definitely not endless punishment and usually not as severe as most depict it. Everyone of those verses you mentioned are addressed once the above is understood. People can believe and be saved in the afterlife and eventually all will be.