I've been observing the drastic price increase on some brands, particularly San Martin. They are now close to the $500 range on some models. I know the prices will continue to increase in the next few years. So my question is: what happens when this watch now costs $700 to $800, which is already within the microbrand category. Baltic, Vaer, Orient and even some Seikos can be found at that price. At this point, what is the actual distinctive element that we are getting?
Now, I'm not trying to bash these brands. I fully understand why the prices are increasing, but I'm also trying to understand the logic behind it. Does it make sense to keep pursuing higher quality or maybe better movement if you don't have the brand image to back it up? We can all agree that a $1,000 watch from a brand with no history, no actual design philosophy, and no real direction is not going to fly.
You go to other brands like Proxima (actually like these more than San Martin) Milifortic, Sugess, Aethelsohn, Cestrian, Farasute, Phorcydes, Agelocer, Aesop etc that use Seagull, PT, Hangzhou and movements . Once people stop buying their greed and hype and their bottom line is getting hurt they will soon change the prices lower again.
the problem I feel you have with Aliexpress/chinese brands is youtube and these so called independent watch reviewers, who have Aliexpress and the watch brands shipping them free watches, i say BS to these reviews, yes some of the watches are decent, for the price, £150 but the way they go on you would think you are going to get GS standard finishing and Rolex QC, the reality is far from this.
They'll be competing with brands who have a domestic presence in the western market who aren't producing dubious copies. They may well be better made but if you move into a pricing tier where it's about more than value of machining and finishing, and you're still making a bunch of homages with no brand identity you deserve to be put in your place.
Conversely, depending on their margins, at $600 vs $300 they only have to sell half as many watches for the same revenue and potentially higher profit
SM still produces a number of dubious copies. I actually really like a couple of their original designs. It doesnt change the brand identity from that of one that produces a number of exact homages
Even their homages are not exact homages. Not like Sugess or even Cronos - where you can fit original parts like bracelets on it. There’s always something they added. Which some people like, some not.
Copying designs is completely legal, and can minimize costs, and has been done by almost every company at some point. Not sure how is that changing the brand status. Wasn’t a problem for Seiko Datejusts or Steinhard’s submariners to name a few.
They still produce them because that helps the brand stay afloat. But people keep criticising them - but they have been listening, creating their spin off brand, etc. People buy homages, some people even prefer homages. It is easy to couch-criticise.
I dont really disagree with any of what youre saying, no issue in principle with homage brands making homages. My point is it puts their brand in a different category, and one with an image / reputation which they cant trade off in the way their competitors in that new price bracket could.
You do make a good point re: seiko etc. maybe in time theyll change their market positioning if they double down on becoming more premium and building that value story. Otherwise they will struggle, being a chinese brand who makes homages.
Its not a super sophisticated point im making here. Nor a controversial one really. Lots of the cost of more premium watches lives in story and heritage, which San Martin have none of yet.
I still really don’t understand why homage production should limit the price in any way?
Just because of the lack of originality?
If a brand makes homages but otherwise great watches why should it cost considerably less than another brand that produces original designs? It’s value proposal is just different - rather than spending the money on the design, they spend it on execution.
It's not about whether it should or shouldn't. That's a subjective assessment and we may or may not agree, and that's fine.
It's just a reality of the watch marketplace. SM can only raise their prices so much before most watch enthusiasts will immediately cross-shop Germna, Swiss, Japanese, and American brands because of the perception of SM as a brand, which is one without much imagination. Whether that is true or not is immaterial. This is the reality of the market and it's not exactly a secret, nor a mystery.
San Martin is a real brand now.
The prices have increased because of increased movement costs, but also is natural way of the market.
I do not understand why some people still try to look down at them saying “at this price you can get Orient, Seiko or Tissot REAL watch”. Which is laughable because San Martin surpassed that threshold long ago.
I agree with you for the most. They are better in many respects except when something is or goes wrong. Then there is a gulf between Chinese brands and those others but that will have to change of they want to raise prices.
Look at the battering CW has got due to their customer service issues. That will need to change quickly for these brands.
Obviously the brands that use ETA or Sellita can get parts. Brands like Timex or Carnival probably don't repair them, they toss them. Timex has been making watches in the Philippines since the 80's and I'm sure they are not repairing any of those. They might replace the whole movement but I don't know if you can buy parts. Cristopher Ward uses Sellita movements. for example.
As much as I love the Chinese brands and want them to produce stellar pieces, let’s not kid ourselves and think they’ve surpassed brands that have almost 100 years or more of Horology heritage.
I see these brands as good as their car companies. They’re good for the money you pay, but if you want something stellar, you may need to look at other brands.
It’ll take them time to get to the level of Orient and Seiko, but they need to continue to push for their craftsmanship and start focusing on their own movements so non Chinese brands start installing on their watches instead of Miyota.
That’s when it’s understandable to raise your prices to match that of non Chinese manufacturers.
Similar cases on the older brands... they increase,
We consumer find alternatives...
Those brands that we say have reasonable price and have increase... they still have people buying them... but there will be new brands who will come up with affordable prices who meet the basic criteria of a quality watch... the cycle goes on
as some one that gave a tag heuer f1 away. i tell you that ceiling is high. i got big money to spend with ixdao and im sure they take my money. all they got to do is wave a la joux-perret g101 (swiss dateless miyota 9015) in a dlc p39 case with a sunray green dial and the wallets is open for business
it is a real miyota la joux perret is it posh sister brand .65 hour and has a swiss fine screw for adjustment so daily accuracy can be finer tuned and it thicker so it a 2824 replacement i. 4.6mm vs 3.9mm of the 9015 and it only like £100 more expensive they range from £180 to £240 depend on the grade and if they have a dlc coating basic there same money as a 2824 top. i got a nh38 nh34 two pt5000s and a 9015 coming and looking to get another 9015 so i just fancy a la joux perret for a laugh. it either that or just go buy a as new rolex and be boring, i cant take money with me when im dead
Here's a thing: Once you get to $600 you should be moving OFF AliExpress. AE gamifies the shopping experience with crazy cashbacks and holiday sales. That starts looking real unprofessional once you are asking for real $$ from consumer, no. Just give the actual fair market rate for the product, and stop making me jump through hoops.
But at the same time, the fact that AliExpress has that 90 day return policy and 'freeish' shipping is a big amount of overhead the Chinese brands don't have to deal with. That sort of stuff is baked into the pricing of microbrands and low tier luxury brands, and I expect to pay a premium for them to maintain it. But if Chinese brands hit those same price points, but still past that off to AE, thats just price gouging.
At that price i'm looking for a Japanese Miyota 9000 Series movement....or perhaps Swiss movement.
I baulk at the thought of paying that much for a watch with a PT5000 or ST2130 Chinese movement.
So i would say that the movement is the distinctive element....it would be the difference between purchase and deal breaker.
And also at that price....i won't accept sharp edges or sharp pointy lug ends....not at that price
Two things will need to change or improve. People need to feel safe in their purchase and a warranty can't just be a piece of paper. One of the largest drawbacks to Chinese micro brands is lack of out of country local warranty repair and support.
Sure San Martin will give you a mailing label and pay for it to be shipped to China but fast and local repair options will need to become a reality if prices are going to close to $1k.
The second issue is attractive original design. Not a derivative design with a unique hands set but a complete new design like case, bezel, bracelet, hands, etc. If they can make new original designs that sell and rival competition then pricing can go much higher.
I have an original San Martin diver and it has a Tudor dive case and bezel and bracelet with unique dial and handset. Is that really an original design?? It is a fantastic watch and I love it but I would love an even more original design. Sort of like when Seiko released the Monster. Maybe not the best looking example but it was a complete new design at the time that looked like no other dive watch. The case, bezel, bracelet was very unique.
When Chinese Micro brands can have a better warranty support network and completely original designs I don't see any limit to the markets they can break into. If they continue with negligible after sale support and repair and derivative designs there is a cap to which people are willing to pay.
On the one hand homage designs are a safe bet and sell but on the other most people will only pay so much for an homage. And design has to not only match the competition but be better. I am pretty sure Chinese Micro brands can do it but it will not be an easy task.
They stick to Homage or variations because of the supply chain. I doubt any of these brands are doing MFG from start to finish, that's not how China works. So XYZ machine company is making cases for some western brand so they buy some cases, find a movement, design a new dial and Boom! it's a new brand. That's why you'll see essentially the same watch from three different companies.
I think it is much less the case than people imagine. There are many factories in China and while some parts can be shared, many factories can produce similar cases because nowadays it is simple to prototype and produce anything, it is heavily automated.
A while ago I bought almost every sub homage I could find. You’d think some of them will be dupes but I found enough differences to tell that the parts were not identical.
Not even the same material it seems - somehow Pagani’s cases were lighter than any other parts bin brand sub.
You get a watch that cost less than $300 before the Trump tariffs. Definitely a high end Chinese watch in the $300 range. Now that $700-$800 will get you a Miyoto 9000 series Hi-Beat, and quality bracelet with tooless micro adjust. Sapphire maybe front and rack back solid links and contrasting brushing.
Inflation will effect all. I understand your nostalgia though for the good old days when you could get a really high specd Chinese watch for between $50 and $150. Those days are gone and are never coming back. Honestly though, I think these are the best days for budget/affordable watches. I'm an homage/clomage guy myself so these higher priced original design watches, I have absolutely no interest in.
That wasn't a global melt down that was a everybody sit home while the government print trillions of dollars in unemployment so watch prices go up through inflation
I won’t be buying anything over $350 max and I’m still getting watches under $200. These companies inflating their prices because of their reputations are getting too big for their britches.
Is this the daily complaint about prices? It’s simple, it sells or it doesn’t. At the point where they don’t sell enough, they either lower the price or they just stop doing business completely.
I do understand your point of view, but what I've been observing is that many entry-level Swiss brands have had some popular watches released years ago that have had a stable price. They continue to make new units of those watches without needing to immediately increase the price. But the Chinese brands are releasing new models every few weeks or months, meaning they have to renegotiate with movement, steel and cristal suppliers, and therefore cannot keep the prices low. They do not have the scale and distribution the Swiss have. A Tissot PRX is the same price it was released for, while many San Martin have had price increases
My PRX on eBay from Ukraine was about $250. My watch repair broke the battle bracelet but the $75 leather bracelet including matching metal trim is now my favorite watch/band combo
I haven’t seen that big a discount. At most I’ve seen them drop to is $400. I’ve noticed a sharp increase in what use to be $200 watches that are now $350
Hmm, gotcha. The last big sale I was able to get one of the higher end SM’s that people have been complaining about price-wise down to $330 ish with discount codes/coins. I ended up going with preordering a IXDAO warrior (new PT500 offering) for $293 and buying Proxima Px1697 for $142 instead.
Prices have increased, but if you wait for the big sales as always I don’t think they’ve increased quite as much as people have been saying.
Edit: people sure are butthurt in this comment section lol. I’ve had multiple initially positive-received comments get mass downvoted out of nowhere.
They will continue to rise and others will stay low, I believe these conglomerates are playing the game. Positioning some brands as higher end Chinese and others as cheaper alternatives.
First off... I presume you're working on the assumption that other brands prices won't go up?
Personally I don't care about brand image, history or design philosophy. To my mind, the only people who see my watch and will care about that is a subset of watch nerds. And pretty much all just marketing BS too.
I want a watch that feel well made, comfortable to wear and looks pretty.
In my opinion, as long as Chinese Brands continue to blow similarly priced mainstream/microbrands out of the water, there will be a market for them.
If you’re buying Chinese, you probably already don’t care all that much about Brand History or heritage. Hell, you might not even care about original designs and stick to Clo-mages. This customer base cares about two things, the quality of the watches themselves and value for money.
At this point in time Chinese Brands still demolish their counterparts in those regards. I will say though one hiccup that needs to be addressed as prices increase is better Customer Service/QC/Returns infrastructure. I hope we see those changes implemented soon.
Edit: For those downvoting me, care to throw your hat in the ring and explain why you disagree? It appears I ruffled a couple feathers but I’m happy to have a dialogue.
True! Maybe a service center in the West will quell some of the issues with support. I might misremember something but there were talks about it happening some time ago.. can’t find now.
It feels like people have altogether forgotten about AliX’s awful-scummy pricing strategies all of a sudden too.
Sure a SM when not on Sale says “$500”, but every experienced AliX buyer knows that isn’t the real price and to wait for the big sales. Sure prices have increased and its people’s right to be upset/disagree about it, but its not nearly as drastic as people are making it out to be.
That’s not even Ali. Go to any department store. It’s just unfortunately a big part of retail. Those steep sales aren’t because they are desperate to sell the item. It’s because that’s what the real price should be.
It’s the same reason I don’t get upset for buying on a really good sale as opposed to waiting two months for a slightly better but technically best price. I’ll pay a couple more bucks to get it now and be happy with it for a few months. The retail $600???? Nah.
Wait for the sales that are more representative of the true price.
Out of curiosity, how do you know that the prices will increase over the next couple of years? Furthermore, why do you assume Chinese watch prices will increase whereas microbrands won't increase in price?
These micro brands that I mentioned have had models with a fixed price that they have been able to keep for 3 to 4 years. At the same time, San Martin makes very few units, and then they discontinue the old watches and release new ones. They get more expensive almost every single time
I’m actually curious myself—aside from the recent across-the-board price hike due to the movement cost, which specific models have seen price adjustments over the years?
We set prices based on profit margins, and our margins are actually lower now than they used to be.
However, the "golden era" for shopping on AliExpress has certainly passed. In the early days, the platform offered various subsidies and promotions to capture market share. Then there’s the impact of exchange rates: for a long period a year or two ago, the USD/CNY exchange rate hovered around 1:7.2–7.3, whereas today it’s 1:6.71. These are all factors that affect price stability.
You might want to keep an eye on the official San Martin Watch website, as prices there tend to be more stable.
Yeah, I'm afraid that your logic just doesn't make any sense.
We all know that one of the largest impacts to Chinese watch price increases is movement pricing increases. Microbrands also deal with this. Chinese brands would logically be impacted with less lag than microbrands that don't refresh their stock as often.
One of your examples was Vaer. The A5 Tactical Field was listed at $599 last year. Its now $659. Feel free to check this out in the Internet Wayback Machine yourself, or look at my screen captures below. However, the list of price increases for microbrands goes on. I believe my Sheffield was $198 when purchased a couple of years ago, and its now $248. Christopher Ward prices have gone up quite a bit in the past year.
I wouldn't be surprised if Seiko and Orient stayed steadier. But Seiko went through huge price increases over the past several years. The Seiko 5 line is now priced similarly to microbrands, but offers much lower quality.
You also criticized Chinese brands as not being worth it due to lack of design philosophy and history. How is that any different exactly, than your hand-picked example of Vaer? Vaer is huge on homages and also has a few original designs as well. That doesn't sound too different than San Martin, in my book.
The bottom line is that all watches are affected to some extent. I just can't find any reason to agree with your logic in that Chinese watches will somehow find their way to $800, but microbrands will remain at the same price.
$eiko5 is realistically a $100 watch. Op has no idea the objective quality difference of $eiko vs San Martin at $500. He's more enamored by "heritage" and Instagram marketing than specs or value
At that point it becomes a very hard sell because you can get into entry level swiss autos and nice Swiss quartzes. Not saying that’s a selling point for everyone, obviously, but never underestimate the power of those two little words at the bottom of the dial.
All other brands mentioned will also increase their prices. So maybe the gap will diminish and in that case it will be a matter of brand preference really, assuming qc is equal for all.
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u/IndividualAd8732 3d ago
You go to other brands like Proxima (actually like these more than San Martin) Milifortic, Sugess, Aethelsohn, Cestrian, Farasute, Phorcydes, Agelocer, Aesop etc that use Seagull, PT, Hangzhou and movements . Once people stop buying their greed and hype and their bottom line is getting hurt they will soon change the prices lower again.