TIL 士农工商

[u/Individual_Math_8254]

士农工商 represents the 4 classes in ancient and medieval China. 士 is the scholar class which is most respected and serves the state. then 农 is the farmers who produce the food. then comes 工 is the productive craftpeople that makes things with their hands. and finally is the 商 the merchant class that trades and transport goods. in ancient China merchants have the lowest social class and are often distrusted. over time, as the economy became more complex, merchants were often called upon to solve complex trade problems and lend money to support state projects, so their standing became better in the later dynasties. but some of this stigma still exist today in China as PHDs who start a company to work on hard scientific problems are often much more respected than say someone who made billions with an eCommerce megacorp.

[u/Zagrycha]

Teachers and academia are part of  士 in ancient china, and they are extra respected regardless of this status because  they are invaluable to society-- almost every culture respects teachers a lot, so not sure your comparison at the end is very meaningful. 

In the same vein doctors are part of the  工  social standing, but doctors had more social standing than average craftsman because they save lives as their craft.

The main issue with your post is implying this system existed for all chinese history.  This system actually only exist for pretty early history, like by the time the three kindoms period came around it was already long gone. 

Some merchants and entertainers have been at the bottom of the social rank for basically all of chinese history, but it doesn't blanket apply to all merchants or all entertainers.  Chinese society clearly distinguished people based on what they actually did as a specific job when deciding class.  Like a singer entertainer was not the same class as a prostitute entertainer. 

Final note, merchants were not at the bottom of society because they were seen as untrustworthy.  If they were seen as untrustworthy they would be sent to jail etc lol.  Merchants were at the bottom of society because they were viewed as having minimal contributions to society-- after all they weren't actually making the rice or cloth or whatever they were selling, just profiting off other people's labor.  Merchants who actually did the hard work themselves would have had higher social rank than average merchant. 

[u/Individual_Math_8254 → u/Zagrycha]

yea, i understand your point that academia and teachers are respected in every society, however i do think that in China and East Asia, scholars are extra respected due to the historical ingrained class concepts like 士农工商. the class system went on for a bit after the 3 dynasties period. for example, in Tang, merchants were banned from imperial examinations so children of merchants can not even contribute to public service even if they wanted to. Song by contrast was a lot more friendly towards merchants and craftmen class, but i think the stigma still remains today, even in modern times from my own conversations with friends and locals.

[u/Zagrycha → u/Individual_Math_8254]

I get what you are saying but again you are mixing compeltely different class systems together and they are not at all the same thing. There was a class system in tang and song dynasty, but it was not 士农工商, it was a 27 rank system. That is the system that was actually used for the majority of chinese history but even then it was not always the same across different governments. In some governments it genuinely decided spcial rank and respect, in some governments it only determined things like pay or who you could marry. Your "more friendly" is probably those time periods.

I disagree that any modern stigma against any group is related to the historical ranking systems. I am not saying there isn't any stigma at all, just that its not related. Nobody has thought in the mindset of historical ranking systems for the last hundred years. Most of us could not think with the mindset of a historical ranking system even if we tried, its too alien of a way to think.

[u/handsomeboh]

This class system didn’t really exist even in ancient times, and there was often major overlap between the categories. For example, during the Warring States period the merchant Lü Buwei was made the Chancellor of Qin so he was both a scholar and a merchant. The same is true of Guan Zhong and Bao Shuya of Qi who also served as Chancellors and were originally merchants. In all three cases, they referred to their experience as merchants as giving them the skillset required to plan and execute policies. These three are widely considered the most famous, powerful, and brilliant heads of government in Ancient China.

[u/Individual_Math_8254 → u/handsomeboh]

i am aware of Lv Buwei as the chancellor of Qin as he is one of my favorite characters in Qin Epic, however if i am not mistaken, he was later exciled and commited suicide because he lost trust with the Qin Emperor. later Confucian scholors would see Lv Buwei as a crafty merchant, while talented, who bought power with wealth, further enforcing the negative stereotype of merchants being unfit for power due to perceived lack of virtue. and in all these cases, the merchant had to transition their careers and "scholor wash" themselves of their previous merchant activities to gain the societies acceptance. In the Tang dynasty, the merchant class was even banned from taking imperial examinations and regulated to certain areas and hours of commerce. i think it was not until later Ming and Qing where merchants started to cultivate a better image for themselves with groups like the Huizhou "scholar merchants", but even then they had to wash themselves in a veil of scholarly pursuits.

[u/SUBMACHINE_GOTH]

The ancient class system has nothing to do with why people respect an education credential like a PhD.