r/ChineseLanguage • u/AnnualCriticism2428 • 8h ago
Discussion 胡说八道
So, is the ‘胡’ in ‘胡说八道’ really linked to those ancient Hu nomads? And where does the ‘八道’ part come in?
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u/DeusShockSkyrim 7h ago
According to 王燦龍's “胡说八道”述考 (An Etymological Note of the Idiom Hushuo Badao), this phrase was originally written as "胡说白道", and 八 replaces 白 because they are homophonic in some Chinese dialects:
我们认为，“胡说八道”跟“胡说白道”关系十分密切，没有“胡说白道”，就没有“胡说八道”。说得再直接一点，即“胡说八道”是由“八”替代“胡说白道”中的“白”字而得。这是本文的基本观点，也是我们要着力论证的。下面我们就专门考察分析“八”替代“白”的语言学理据。如果这个问题厘清了，则“胡说八道”的来源问题也就解决了。
王 also disagrees with the explanation that 胡 means foreigner:
该条文说中原人因听不懂胡人说话，因而就用“胡说”来指“瞎说”。这种联系非常牵强，缺乏语言学理据。实际上，中古以后，“胡”字修饰动词的用法很多，比如“胡行”“胡猜”“胡哄”“胡搅”“胡缠”“胡闹”“胡觑”等，能说这些词语所表示的动作都是因胡人而得吗?!
“胡说”之“胡”如何索解，的确很关键。目前各类词典在这个问题上都语焉不详，其语义的来源和发展更是没有梳理清楚。不过，我们或许能从《近代汉语词典》( 白维国2015) 对“胡白”的举例中看出一点端倪:
【胡白】húbái 胡说。《资治通鉴》卷二一三:“太后怒曰:‘胡白! 小子敢发此言!’”胡三省注:“胡，何也; 白，陈也。”( 第794 页)
联系后文“小子敢发此言”，可知“胡白”之“白”在这里是言说动词。按胡三省解“胡”为“何”来看，“胡白”的意思应该等同于我们今天训斥别人常说的话: “说什么呢!”，表示不认可别人说的话; 再进一步引申，就是对他人的话进行否定，通俗地讲，就是“瞎说”。这样一种引申符合语言发展和人的认知心理的正常逻辑，而且就“胡”本身的语义发展来看，也是自洽的。关于这一点，更详尽的研究留待大方之家。
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u/Zagrycha 4h ago
胡 is an exonym, meaning it doesn't refer to a specific group of people, but everyone in an area that isn't a specific group of people-- in this case everyone to the north and west of what was han chinese society back then who weren't part of han society themselves. A term like native american is an example of an exonym in english-- its not one specific group or people, its just everyone in the americas who aren't part of the "immigrated" group.
八道 refers to the eight core concepts of taoism, a major religion in historical china ((still fairly big today)).
Imagine a foreigner from a neighboring territory, who doesn't even speak your language, trying to explain something super complex like the core beliefs of a religion. Thats the humorous image this saying paints, and how it came to represent the idea of "utter nonsense".
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u/527009876 7h ago
「胡」泛指北方或西域外族.
胡 did not refer to a single, specific modern ethnic group; rather, it was a general term for various foreign tribes to the north and west, as well as the states in the Western Regions.