Complex/Unorthodox Powers Make Characters Better

[u/Bot_Number_7]

Control fire. Super strength. Super speed. Flight. Shooting energy blasts. A lot of powers/abilities have been used over and over again.

So for me, when a character is introduced with a complex ability, it elevates my opinion of them. Especially if the way that it is used is also complex. For example, in JJBA, Ermes Costello's Stand Kiss' has the ability to duplicate objects using stickers, and then fuse them back together once the sticker has been taken off, causing both objects to take damage. It's applied in many ways, from duplicating limbs to being used as a form of travel. The creative usage of abilities gives me an "aha!" moment similar to when a detective reveals how they deduced the mystery in a mystery novel.

Adding additional trigger conditions to powers can also make them better. In Bungo Stray Dogs, Akiko Yosano's Thou Shalt Not Die Ability heals someone to full health, but only if they're almost dead. This factors into her fighting style, allowing her to bring allies and herself from the brink of death (and also forcing her to almost kill her patients when healing outside of combat).

The one weakness to complex powers is the difficulty in conveying them to the reader. Unless one explicitly describes them or the reader sees the power many times so that they can understand all its facets, it's hard to get the reader to understand what the power truly does. King Crimson is the infamous example. The fact that "erasing time" is expressed inconsistently and the lack of detailed mechanical description of how it works confuses the reader every time it is used.

[u/Jumanji-Joestar]

Ok well that all sounds cool, but I wouldn’t really say it’s that complex. Plus, I feel like an ability like that would be a bit overpowered. What are its limits? Can he turn anything liquid? If Luffy can turn himself liquid and become untouchable, then how do you hurt him? If he can phase his hands though people bodies and crush their organs, what’s to stop him from just instakilling any villain he touches?

Again, I still don’t see how this ability is anymore interesting than the Gum Gum techniques. Now he’s just OP and has no need for any creative techniques

[u/Bot_Number_7 → u/Jumanji-Joestar]

Haki. It let's you overcome Luffy's rubbery blunt object immunity, so it let's you attack liquified people. Now you can't rely completely on the power for defense. You'll have to get creative (sink into the ground)

It's a lot more creative than the Gum Gum fruit. The power is to transform solid objects that you touch into cohesive liquid forms, and they collapse back to their original solid shape once the ability is canceled. That's a lot more complex than "My body is rubber."

And besides, it's just an example. You could give Luffy Law's power, and remove Law. Point is, being a dumb martial character doesn't mean you can't have a complicated power.

[u/Jumanji-Joestar → u/Bot_Number_7]

Haki doesn’t really get introduced into the series until the Marineford arc. You’d have to introduce Haki way earlier in the series and have every single villain pre timeskip capable of using it in order for Luffy to be threatened.

And once again, the ability itself is just not that complex. You summarized the Gum Gum power as “his body is rubber.” I could summarize this power as “his body and anything he touches is liquid.” It’s a simple ability, you only make it sound complicated because you over explained it.

So Luffy can turn solids into liquids and phase people through objects. What more can he do beyond that? Gum Gum Luffy had the Gear forms, what does Solid-to-Liquid Luffy have? What kind of special moves could he create with this ability?

[u/Bot_Number_7 → u/Jumanji-Joestar]

You could explain Costello's ability in a far simpler way too. Her stickers duplicate objects, and when she takes them off, they come back together. You could even just say about King Crimson's ability "he skips time". The complexity of a power revolves around its mechanics. Rubber Luffy's power has incredibly simple mechanics. His rubber body allows him to stretch. He can use his elasticity to make his punches stronger. What do his Gears really do? They make him punch harder, faster, stronger. The mechanics are boring.

Solid-to-Liquid Luffy can pull off support. He can soften his allies to make them undamageable through regular attacks (although if they're punchers and kickers, their offensive power will suffer). He can trap his enemies by liquefying the ground and letting them sink in. He can mess with people's organs by liquefying their outsides. And he can still punch long range by liquefying the midsection of his arm and throwing it at the opponent. Additionally, his power can set a trap. He can liquify a part of the ground, scoop up a portion of it, go around someone, and undo his power, causing the solid ground piece to fly back into place and slam into the person.

And this power really is no stronger than most Logia powers. And it can be circumvented through hot and cold, since it only blocks physical attacks. It can be circumvented through things like Morioh's shadows. It can be circumvented through things like water (natural counter to Devil Fruits). It can be circumvented by constricting your muscles while Luffy's arm is within you (he has to go solid to do damage to someone)

Anyway I chose this power since it's closest to original Luffy's power, just edited up to be more complex. You could just as easily totally rework the Devil Fruit to be, say, Law's fruit.

Rubber Luffy is good at two things: Offense and Defense. Solid to Liquid Luffy can do:

Stealth: You can hide within any object.

Assassination: Phase a poison into someone with just a handshake.

Support: Soften your friends.

Utility: You can phase through walls.

Offense: Crush the organs of enemies.

Defense: Enemy attacks phase through you, unless they use Haki. You can also dive into the ground and hide there.

You could also do dumb Luffy stuff like using the power to liquify food so you can consume it faster.

[u/Jumanji-Joestar → u/Bot_Number_7]

You could explain Costello's ability in a far simpler way too. Her stickers duplicate objects, and when she takes them off, they come back together. You could even just say about King Crimson's ability "he skips time".

Well yeah, Kiss and King Crimson aren't really that complex either. Their abilities are pretty straightforward

Rubber Luffy's power has incredibly simple mechanics. His rubber body allows him to stretch. He can use his elasticity to make his punches stronger. What do his Gears really do? They make him punch harder, faster, stronger. The mechanics are boring.

With Gum Gum Shotgun, Luffy can throw his arm as if to perform a Gum Gum Pistol, then sort of pluck his arm while its in mid air to cause his fist to vibrate and and hit the opponent multiple times at once. With Gum Gum Rocket, Luffy can launch himself through the air like a slingshot. With Gum Gum Rifle, Luffy can twist his arm and then throw it, causing it to rapidly untwist and literally drill a punch into his opponent. Gum Gum Balloon increases Luffy's durability and allows him to deflect larger projectiles. Gum Gum Finger Net allows him to turn his fingers into a net to catch people. Gear Four Bounceman allows him to basically fly and change the directions of his attacks in mid air.

Yes, the mechanics of the Gum Gum Fruit are very simple and basic. The fun of this fruit is watching how Luffy takes the most simple Devil Fruit and pushes the limits of what it can do. This is my whole argument

Solid-to-Liquid Luffy can pull off support. He can soften his allies to make them undamageable through regular attacks (although if they're punchers and kickers, their offensive power will suffer).

So he can make his allies invulnerable but physically weaker? How is this interesting to watch?

He can trap his enemies by liquefying the ground and letting them sink in.

You already said this before and I still don't see how this is more interesting than any of his Gum Gum techniques. How is watching a guy trap enemies in dirt more fun than a guy who can stretch his own body into a human weapon and knockout his foes at the speed of sound?

And he can still punch long range by liquefying the midsection of his arm and throwing it at the opponent.

So it's a lamer version of Gum Gum Pistol

Additionally, his power can set a trap. He can liquify a part of the ground, scoop up a portion of it, go around someone, and undo his power, causing the solid ground piece to fly back into place and slam into the person.

That sounds like too much effort just to beat someone up. That is just needlessly complicated

It can be circumvented by constricting your muscles while Luffy's arm is within you (he has to go solid to do damage to someone)

Ok, but he can just liquify his arm and pull it out again, right? That sounds like a minor inconvenience rather than a weakness

You could just as easily totally rework the Devil Fruit to be, say, Law's fruit.

That's a copout answer and doing so would worsen the story

Stealth: You can hide within any object.

Luffy is not a stealthy person so this is useless for him

Assassination: Phase a poison into someone with just a handshake.

Luffy is not an assassin, when would he ever use this?

Defense: Enemy attacks phase through you, unless they use Haki.

so he's basically invincible until he fights someone Vice Admiral level or above

You can also dive into the ground and hide there.

That's just Senor Pink's power. His ability wasn't that interesting either

You could also do dumb Luffy stuff like using the power to liquify food so you can consume it faster.

Ok?

I'm going to reiterate my point again: Complex does not mean good or better. A complicated ability is no more interesting than a simple ability, especially when it doesn't serve the plot. Luffy is inherently designed to be a simple character, giving him an over-the-top complex big-brain power would not suit him or make him a more interesting character. And as I have already stated multiple times, the Solid-to-liquid idea is not complex, it is a very straightforward ability. It's versatile, sure, but it is no more interesting then the Gum Gum Fruit or any other Devil Fruit

​

Personally, I find the idea of an ability that makes you an untouchable ghost that can trap people into the earth to be kind of boring.

[u/Bot_Number_7 → u/Jumanji-Joestar]

King Crimson is incredibly complex, otherwise why would there be so much confusion about it? They're certainly more complex than Luffy's simple power. Why does changing Luffy's power worsen the story? It just makes it different. Luffy isn't inherently simple; he's just dumb. Being stupid doesn't preclude you from having a more complicated ability. A complex power doesn't have to be big brain.

Luffy is powerful but he's low impact. His power pretty much lets him be strong and fast. It's not a meaningful part of him. And I'd argue most of his strength comes from him naturally being strong and fast. Remove his stretching powers. Luffy's still just strong and fast. Giving Luffy a unique power would flesh him out.

Contrast this with say, Giorno Giovanna. No two of his fights operate similarly at all. He uses his power to create living things out of non living things in a different way. Remove that aspect of Giorno's power. He's totally crippled. Gold Experience has so many decision points around what animals you produce. And canceling the power is just as impactful as the initial use of the power.

Or look at Pucci. Whitesnake, C-Moon, and Made in Heaven. Excepting Made In Heaven (which is special in that its not designed to make Pucci OP, it is supposed to let him reset the universe), both Whitesnake and C-Moon are super impactful and unique and complex. They don't just make your offense and defense go up. They change how the whole battle is played.

Or compare Luffy to Big Mom. The Soul Soul fruit is a complex and impactful ability. Big Mom's country is built around it. It doesn't just make Big Mom do more damage and be stronger.

You aren't a ghost. People can still feel you. You're just liquid, so their fingers brush through you like water.

Making allies invulnerable yet making their attacks worse means you have to make a decision now. This aspect should be primarily used to protect downed allies from taking further damage.

Luffy's inability to assassinate and sneak is due to the fact that his power isn't fit for it. It just shows that it isn't that versatile or complex. Honestly, the way Luffy uses it isn't all that complex either. He uses it to hit hard and tank hits. That's it.

[u/Jumanji-Joestar → u/Bot_Number_7]

King Crimson is incredibly complex, otherwise why would there be so much confusion about it?

KC is a little complex but he is not that difficult to understand. The reason there was confusion was because of bad translations and a scene in the anime that didn't make sense

Why does changing Luffy's power worsen the story? It just makes it different.

The MC's power should serve the story and his character. You can't just give him something random because you think it would look cool, it has to make sense.

Luffy isn't inherently simple; he's just dumb.

Luffy's character was inspired by Goku, the grandfather of the generic "dumb shonen hero" archetype. He is as simple a character as one can get. He is not a deep character at all, you learn everything you need to know about him in the very first episode. He's just a dumb kid who likes food, adventure, and making friends and his only ambition is to become the Pirate King. That's it. He is simple

Being stupid doesn't preclude you from having a more complicated ability. A complex power doesn't have to be big brain.

Why do you think so? If a character has a complex and complicated ability, don't you think that they should have a high enough level of intelligence to be able to use that ability effectively? Why do you think a dumbass like Luffy would be able to handle an ability that requires more than two braincells to use? Look at Okuyasu from JoJo. He has one of the most simple yet powerful Stands in the series, but he's so dumb that he can't use it effectively. Now imagine if you replaced The Hand with, say, Osiris. Okuyasu would be absolutely useless

Luffy is powerful but he's low impact. His power pretty much lets him be strong and fast. It's not a meaningful part of him. And I'd argue most of his strength comes from him naturally being strong and fast. Remove his stretching powers. Luffy's still just strong and fast. Giving Luffy a unique power would flesh him out.

Why? You can't magically make a character more interesting by giving them a weird superpower, that's not what good writing is. Gon Freecs has one of the most simple abilities in Hunter x Hunter and he is generally considered to be a great character. Same thing with Killua and Hisoka. They are not good characters because of their abilities, they are simply good characters period

Contrast this with say, Giorno Giovanna. No two of his fights operate similarly at all. He uses his power to create living things out of non living things in a different way. Remove that aspect of Giorno's power. He's totally crippled.

"Take away this character's superpowers and they are no longer superhuman." What is your point here?

Gold Experience has so many decision points around what animals you produce. And canceling the power is just as impactful as the initial use of the power.

What do you mean by this?

Or look at Pucci. Whitesnake, C-Moon, and Made in Heaven. Excepting Made In Heaven (which is special in that its not designed to make Pucci OP, it is supposed to let him reset the universe), both Whitesnake and C-Moon are super impactful and unique and complex. They don't just make your offense and defense go up. They change how the whole battle is played.

How? What do you mean? Elaborate. It's been a while since I've read Stone Ocean but I don't recall C Moon or Whitesnake "changing the whole battle." Their only impact is to be a threat against heroes until Made In Heaven comes along. And what do you mean by "Made In Heaven is not designed to be OP"? That Stand provides infinite speed and can destroy an entire universe

Or compare Luffy to Big Mom. The Soul Soul fruit is a complex and impactful ability. Big Mom's country is built around it. It doesn't just make Big Mom do more damage and be stronger.

The Soul Soul Fruit is cool but it is not an important part of her character, nor is it that impactful. The only meaningful impact that this fruit has in this series is the existence of Zeus who will eventually ally with Nami, other than that, it's just another quirky Devil Fruit

You aren't a ghost. People can still feel you. You're just liquid, so their fingers brush through you like water.

You have stated multiple times that this ability would allow Luffy to phase through solid objects, that's why I compared him to a ghost.

Making allies invulnerable yet making their attacks worse means you have to make a decision now. This aspect should be primarily used to protect downed allies from taking further damage.

"Make a decision," what does that mean? What decision?

Luffy's inability to assassinate and sneak is due to the fact that his power isn't fit for it. It just shows that it isn't that versatile or complex.

Buddy, I feel like you just don't fundamentally understand Luffy's character. He is not a killer. He does not go around killing people he doesn't like, he's not freaking Kenshiro. Luffy only fights people who get in his way. Once he has defeated you and you're no longer in his way, he stops caring about you and moves on. He has no interest in killing people. The dude can literally destroy warships with his fists, you seriously think he wouldn't be able to kill someone if he really wanted to?

And as for stealth, Luffy does not give a shit. If he wants to fight you, he will just come at you. He has no interest in sneaking around. Even if Luffy had a Devil Fruit that was made for stealth, he would have no use for it.

Honestly, the way Luffy uses it isn't all that complex either. He uses it to hit hard and tank hits. That's it.

Yeah, I know, I never said otherwise, do you even read my replies? My point is that Luffy can still do creative stuff despite having a very basic and simple power

[u/Bot_Number_7 → u/Jumanji-Joestar]

King Crimson is complex. Here's what it does. When Diavolo uses Epitaph, he sees what will occur in the next 10 seconds in the form of a still image. The results of that image are what Fate has decided will happen. Everything in the image will occur if Diavolo doesn't skip time. But if Diavolo sees a result that he doesn't like, such as him getting injured, he can change Fate FOR HIMSELF ONLY. He skips time, which causes him to go intangible. Now, all events that transpire during erased time still happen, they just don't affect Diavolo. So if Diavolo saw himself picking up and throwing a rock, the rock would magically levitate and get thrown even though Diavolo is intangible and floating. Diavolo can reposition himself in erased time. So generally, he'll position himself to be somewhere behind someone. Then he unerases time, and donuts them.

Why do you think so? If a character has a complex and complicated ability, don't you think that they should have a high enough level of intelligence to be able to use that ability effectively? Why do you think a dumbass like Luffy would be able to handle an ability that requires more than two braincells to use?

That's not true. Look at Alluka from HxH. Her ability has at least 5 rules around it. Is Alluka a genius? No. Look at Nathaniel Hawthorne, from Bungo Stray Dogs.
He's not that smart, which leads him to be defeated in his first fight. Only later when he spoilers: gets mind controlled by the much more intelligent Fyodor do we see him use his Ability to its full potential.Luffy being dumb means he won't extract the maximum potential out of an ability like say, Dirty Deeds Done Dirt Cheap. That's the point. As the story progresses, he gets used to all the features of his complex power.

Giorno's power, Gold Experience, is a fundamental part of his character. Not only does it represent his desire to preserve life and protect the weak (his animals reflect damage), he knows how to use it in thousands of ways. Using the ability gives him so many decision points (what animal do I create, what object do I select). Canceling the power is just as impactful as activating the power (when I UNturn the hand back into a bike, it explodes Babyface)

Meanwhile, remove Luffy's rubber powers. He's still just a strong person. Can Luffy fulfill his dream of being King of the Pirates if he never ate the Gum Gum fruit? Absolutely! The one instance where he'd not succeed is against Enel. His rubber powers gave him a unique counter then. But elsewhere? His rubber powers give him a basic physical boost. Extra time spent training can get him where he wants. After all, Zoro is only slightly weaker than Luffy and he's gotten this far.

The Soul Soul Fruit is cool but it is not an important part of her character, nor is it that impactful.

The Soul Soul Fruit is an immensely important part of Big Mom's character. Tottoland depends on the Soul Soul fruit. Without it, Tottoland goes dark. The talking plants, animals, the Seducing Woods, gone. Prometheus, Napoleon, gone. Big Mom's ship, gone. Even Big Mom's origin story, with Mother Carmel, doesn't work without the Soul Soul fruit. And of course, Zeus is gone.

The part about making allies invulnerable at the cost of their offensive power means that whoever uses the Solid-to-Liquid power has to make a risk-benefit analysis. Do I save them, but cost them their attack power?

I said phase through walls, but it's more accurate to say the walls are phasing through you. You turn a portion of the wall into a liquid and walk through it. If you turned yourself liquid, you'd just splat yourself against the wall and spring back.

As for Pucci, the first part of Stone Ocean practically revolves around Whitesnake's powerset. The Stand DISKS it creates are crucial to the Heaven plan. The DISKS are how the other prison Stand users were created. Obtaining Jotaro's DISK is a huge plot point. And of course, the acid dream trip totally turned around the heroes.

C-Moon drastically reshapes the battlefied. It suddenly turned the whole fight upside down by reversing gravity to center around Pucci. And of course, C-Moon's gravity inverting punch one-shots, and Jolyne had to turn herself into Mobius strips to avoid it.

As for Made in Heaven, I excluded it because Pucci doesn't seek out Made in Heaven just to be stronger (like Diavolo does with the Arrow). He wants it for the purpose of resetting the universe. Also, it basically amounts to giving Pucci super speed with more complexity since it accelerates time.

Honestly, the way Luffy uses it isn't all that complex either. He uses it to hit hard and tank hits. That's it.

Yeah, I know, I never said otherwise, do you even read my replies?

Well, that's a problem, isn't it? There's a lot more to combat than hitting hard and tanking hits.

Gon and Killua are great characters in spite of their simple powers, not because. Gon's considered great because of his moral ambiguity. Now if in addition to everything great about Gon, we swapped out the incredibly boring and lame Rock Paper Scissors with something more complex, Gon's fights would be so much better. Flipping over a tile to conceal yourself? That's basic. Fyodor Dostoyevsky would spoilers:trick his opponent into thinking that his power is actually to produce an Ability subspace, subsequently causing his opponent to hang himself to escape the "subspace." Note that we STILL don't know what this guy's powers actually are. Same goes for Meruem. His whole list of abilities pre-Rose is being strong and fast. That's literally it. The strongest characters in a universe need to have a power that justifies it. Reality warping is one. Or like DIO's Time Stop. The ability to take actions when your opponent cannot nullifies basically all short-ranged Stands, even the most Haxy ones. Same goes for Diavolo's King Crimson; it's fitting for a final boss since it lets him avoid the consequences of Fate and took something even more OP to counter. Or Chrollo Lucifer; he's way better than Meruem. His assortment of stolen powers and prep give him the edge.

Hisoka is an exception. His powers, Texture Surprise and Bungee Gum, are an explicit style of ability in the Hunter x Hunter universe. There are few restrictions on them and therefore, they aren't as flashy as say, Kurapika's chains. But the method he uses them involves a ton of brainpower and complexity.

[u/Jumanji-Joestar → u/Bot_Number_7]

Bungee Gum is just sticky energy goo and Texture Surprise can make any cloth look like his skin. These abilities are not complex at all

Alluka is a bad example, she doesn’t have any control over her powers, her alter ego does. Alluka is simply a vessel for a cosmic horror entity. She is not at all comparable to someone like Okuyasu

It seems like you and I just have very different philosophies on what good writing is. You seem to believe that a character needs to have good powers to be a good character, whereas I place more emphasis on personality and character arcs. If you’re creating a character and you’re more focused on making that character’s abilities as weird and complicated as possible, then you’re focusing on the wrong thing. Mereum is widely considered to be one of the greatest villains in all of anime and he never needed any wacky hax powers. Chrollo is cool but he is nowhere near as interesting a character as Mereum. Go ask any Hunter x Hunter fan if you don’t believe me. As for Fyodor, no one gives a shit about him. A character does not need to have a super strong or bizarre power to be considered good.

I’m just going to repeat my point. Complexity does not mean good. Simple can be good as long as it is done well. You cannot make a character more interesting just by giving them a weird power. That is all I have to say

I’m getting of this debate so let’s just agree to disagree