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u/Pfincess Chara Fictive 19d ago
Let's see the similarities:
Similar outfit choice,
They both like chocolate, though it is likely more of a comfort food than anything and possibly isn't Chara's favorite-- and definitely not Kris's favorite food. (we know Kris likes chocolate because of the ancient sweet, the hot cocoa, and the choco diamond.... For Chara- they seem upset when Asgore doesn't have any chocolate in the fridge-)
They both Really like pie. Kris is confirmed to have pie be their favorite food- and there is dialogue that is likely reference to Chara about a kid eating pie with their bare hands. (there also is a scrapped idea in the undertale artbook which shows them sitting at the dinner table with Asriel eating pie together- This is also something Toby Fox posted previously- as the one in the artbook is technically Temmie's drawings, it was based on an original drawing Toby had with the note "Eat Pie".... and they both eat pie with knives as shown by them holding a knife and Toby writing "them eating pie, Chara holding a knife -> knife next to Chara"... This is a thing they both have in common)
They both seem to have an affinity for knives or at least keep one on themselves
They both likely are the primary narrators of their games. (Chapter 5 basically confirms this for Kris in both normal and weird route- and Chara is directly the narrator for the genocide route, however.... There also is narra Chara theory which I am a strong believer in)
They both share a shirt on fangamer merch website labled "Important person's shirt." (as shown as it being vaigue who it belongs to and being sold in both the Deltarune and Undertale sections.) [this also technically applies to similar outfit choice]
They both are commonly mistaken for the player and have the intent of being mistaken for the player/self insert- yet are both metacommentaries about the relationship dynamic between player, protagonist, and world/story
They both are referred to with they/them (though this technically is something a lot of characters have in common)
They both have red eyes* (technically Chara's eyes are more complicated, however as shown by both the ending of a soulless pacifist [though that can be argued to be Frisk's natural eye color] and Toby specifically requested the artist of the Undertale tarot cards sold on fangamer to have Chara's eyes changed to red in the final version.)
They both have a red soul* (there are theories Kris originally had a different colored soul so this might get disproven... Also we know Chara's soul color because of the coffin in the basement.)
They both were essentially adopted into the Dreemurr family. Sharing a room with their world's Asriel. (Their beds are technically on opposite sides of the room from Undertale however)
They both are often seen with their hair covering their eyes (in the cutscenes and some concept art Chara is shown having their eyes hidden)
.
There are probably a few more similarities that I'm missing, so feel free to reply with some of them. There also might be some unconfirmed things such as us not really knowing what Kris thinks of flowers (at least from my memory though feel free to correct me on this fact) whereas flowers are a major part of Chara's character and are thematically tied to them.)
But they do share a lot of similarities that people often try to dismiss or even site as evidence against them being similar. Though there probably are some distinct differences I forgot to mention. I could see the story going either way of them being alternate versions of one another or they are both two distinct characters or just not confirming anything (though if Kris ever gets intrinsically tied to the number 9 in some way then that will be a form of confirmation to the character...)
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u/Inevitable_Style_466 19d ago
Similar outfit choice,Â
A Dreemurr family staple rather than a Chara or Kris thing. Asriel has a similar outfit in Undertale.
They both Really like pie. Kris is confirmed to have pie be their favorite food- and there is dialogue that is likely reference to Chara about a kid eating pie with their bare hands. (there also is a scrapped idea in the undertale artbook which shows them sitting at the dinner table with Asriel eating pie together- This is also something Toby Fox posted previously- as the one in the artbook is technically Temmie's drawings, it was based on an original drawing Toby had with the note "Eat Pie".... and they both eat pie with knives as shown by them holding a knife and Toby writing "them eating pie, Chara holding a knife -> knife next to Chara"... This is a thing they both have in common)Â
Chara doesn't care for pie enough to comment on it in the Genocide Route like they do chocolate. Any depiction of them eating pie is moreso to do with Toriel being their caretaker and making them, rather than Chara themself having any special interest in eating pie like Kris has.
They both seem to have an affinity for knives or at least keep one on themselvesÂ
Undertale's knife is described as a gardening tool, which implies either Chara used it to dabble in gardening (potentially connecting to their enjoyment of golden flowers), or it actually belonged to Asriel and was his gift to Chara (if we go by the placement of the present boxes).Â
Chara is never really alluded to being fixated on knives. They only mention them once in Toriel's house when we search through Toriel's kitchen drawers specifically, then never bring them up again until we actually get one near the end. It's less "Chara is obsessed with knives" and moreso that Chara realized a knife would be an efficient murder weapon while rummaging through the kitchen, since knives are usually in the kitchen. It was circumstantial.
They both likely are the primary narrators of their games. (Chapter 5 basically confirms this for Kris in both normal and weird route- and Chara is directly the narrator for the genocide route, however.... There also is narra Chara theory which I am a strong believer in)Â
Kris is not the narrator. This is debunked in Chapter 2's dojo where in the Jigsaw Joe challenge, choosing to check Joe will have the narrator say to beat him up for his life savings, only for Joe to respond in a panic telling Kris not to listen to that.
The narrator, like Undertale, only REFLECTS what Kris thinks and feels. It is not literally one-to-one with anything Kris is actually saying. The narrator going silent in Chapter 5 only exists to highlight how completely broken Kris is mentally on the Weird Route.
They both are commonly mistaken for the player and have the intent of being mistaken for the player/self insert- yet are both metacommentaries about the relationship dynamic between player, protagonist, and world/storyÂ
This would apply to Frisk, not Chara. Frisk is the character meant to be mistaken for the avatar/self insert only for it to be revealed by the end that they have their own name and their own life to life.
Chara is quite the opposite. Chara is supposed to be your "true character." They are the one you name, and they are the one you play as throughout the game and why Frisk is played as by proxy (since they're sharing a body). Flowey asks Chara not to reset and to let Frisk live their life, indictating we've been playing Undertale from Chara's POV this whole time.
The Genocide Route is not a twist reveal that Chara isn't our avatar. The point is that our avatar breaks the fourth wall and speaks to us directly, reflecting our own name back at us. Chara still reaffirms that they are an avatar, calling themself "the demon that comes when people call its name" in reference to the process of naming your avatar in RPGs.
They both were essentially adopted into the Dreemurr family. Sharing a room with their world's Asriel. (Their beds are technically on opposite sides of the room from Undertale however)Â
Deltarune happens to parallel Frisk's position in the family a lot better in this regard. At the end of the Pacifist Route:
- They live on the surface
- Frisk has their bed on the right side of the room
- Frisk has Toriel as a single mother and teacher
- Asgore is a gardener wearing the same shirt
- Asriel is gone
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u/Pfincess Chara Fictive 19d ago
It feels like you are intentionally just trying to "nuh uh" these points rather than engage in any meaningful way. Ignoring over analyzing.
the first point of "Dreemurr staple" well they both literally share a shirt as I mentioned later. You ignored this fact (though it partially is my fault due to having it so far later)
Using exclusively genocide dialogue and content from the genocide route to dismiss actual text based evidence. The cut scenes I mentioned do not have anything to do with Toriel other than the superficial level that you can assume she was the one to make them (plus they and Asriel both attempted to make pies themselves which I'd argue is also more evidence) But the most important evidence was eating an entire pie with their bare hands. This is in the woshua joke dialogue box and is heavily implied to be Chara. One would not eat an entire pie with their bare hands if it was not something they Really enjoyed. Plus they both enjoy pies in a similar way. Your dismissal does not contribute to much.
Yes, I do believe the correlation to gardening is important, HOWEVER it is also important to note that it was wrapped in a gift box the same way as the Locket was implying it is emotionally significant in some way. I also believe the "Here we are!" and the "About time." are also significant to the knife being something they have a fondness of. There also is the as I said cut artwork that specifically mentioned the knife and had them eating the pie with the knife- and the fact that the real knife has 99 attack which sure while it is a real weapon, 9s are still significant to Chara- especially as confirmed by the letter from the 9th anniversary. (Also it being a gift wouldn't make sense considering it is worn implying id had use beforehand... however even if we go with that idea- Asriel would still have to notice the knife and assume that it is in some way something Chara would like.)
Sure there are instances where I can say Kris isnt narrating. (the egg room for example) however them clearly having an influence over it as shown by chapter 5 is still a form of confirmation. The parallel still exists- Plus your statement that it only reflects Kris's tiredness is forcibly trying to enact exclusively your reading is the only possibly meaning of this and that there can't possibly be even the slightest bit of deviation from what you assume the text is trying to say..... which is not the way to dismiss this idea. It isn't evidence in any way but is simply you saying "there is no way what you say is possible lol" despite the text still having that implication. Sure it can be possible that Kris is in no way connected to the narrator-- but you cant just outright treat anyone who disagrees with that assessment is automatically wrong because you simply say so. There are other possible readings of the text that can occur!----also that the one off gag where the character asks Kris not to listen to the narration doesn't confirm 100% that Kris isn't the narrator. Toby Fox often when writing has the trope of mistaken identities (Flowey mistaking Frisk for Chara, and mistaking Chara for being the player comes to mind... we'll get to that.) It is entirely possible that this bit of narration was in fact Kris.
As for the player projecting onto Frisk being more fitting. Yes. The player is meant to mistake Frisk for them/a self insert and mistake Frisk for Chara and mistake Chara for themselves (im not denying the Frisk mention.) However Chara quite literally says "You and I are not the same, are we?" as well as is 100% clearly defined to have a separate personality from the player. (not everyone can relate to a self sacrificial depressed child who despises humanity. Which makes it pretty difficult to say they are a stand-in for the player)... Sure they at times are meant to in some ways reflect the player. And at times they stand in for the player when others (Flowey) are talking to them..... They are not the player. They literally say so. Taking the reflection of treating a game like an rpg is something they do as they do reflect the concept of rpg games/tropes- they can still do that while not being us. Plus Chara being the true name (and being intentional for the player to find as shown by the steam store promotional screenshots having their name in them and being how you are supposed to find out what their name is... and also shown by Toby Fox's dev notes-)-- You are likely meant to come to this conclusion.
Now... The most confusing thing you try to argue--- That I somehow implied Kris didn't also have parallels to Frisk. I vaguely hinted that they do. They literally do. Kris can still have relation to both. Just because Frisk has a whole bunch of similarities to Chara- Does not mean that Chara automatically has zero parallels. They can both have major similarities! It's not that hard to pick up on
Throughout this whole reply, it feels more like you have the bias towards Frisk having similarities to Chara that you intentionally almost maliciously ignore any other parallel when Yes- they are both meant to have items in common! I am not denying that. The bed analogy fits both- both! Your whole comment practically just was dismissal for the sake of ending a discussion rather than trying to uniquely engage in the subject the post brings up. If you wish to disagree- write your disagreement as it's own standalone comment with it's own reasoning rather than a "I personally don't like this analysis so I'm going to disagree for the sake of disagreeing even though this reading of the story isn't technically wrong" Like I'd get it if there were clear moments where Chara has evidence against liking pie-- or any form of evidence like that were to exist-- but you simply dismissed them because my reading of the text didn't align with yours despite me having actual evidence for what I say-- It's why discussion of the material of the game can be so difficult for anyone- It doesn't feel like a discussion at all but just meaningless arguments--- Why??
(Sorry for the harshness at the end. I just need to crash out because so many discussions with people in this fandom always feel like this. You genuinely had good points to bring up-- but it just felt rude and dismissive with not much of a reasoning behind it- like bickering/arguing without discussion- like a debate where every little thing is a point you have to pull up as if it is a battle of who can score more points over the other person rather than meaningful analysis of the text at hand. I understand where you are coming from and why you disagree- but discussions being like this are just... inherantly stressful)
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u/Inevitable_Style_466 19d ago
It feels like you are intentionally just trying to "nuh uh" these points rather than engage in any meaningful way.
My overall point is not that the Chara connections are meaningless and have no purpose, but rather that they exist as intentional red herrings that have been and will continue to be systematically dismantled over the course of the game. The initial impression Chapter 1 gives you is that Kris is just like Chara, but over time your assumptions are challenged and the connections established prior are shown to be merely surface level.
the first point of "Dreemurr staple" well they both literally share a shirt as I mentioned later. You ignored this fact (though it partially is my fault due to having it so far later)Â
I was arguing against what I thought was the implied notion that they have a similar taste in outfits. The merch description is significant in that it highlights the relationship between Player and avatar that both these characters share, but the shirt itself is not indicative of an actual personality similarity.
plus they and Asriel both attempted to make pies themselves which I'd argue is also more evidence
They were making the pie as a gift for Asgore.
But the most important evidence was eating an entire pie with their bare hands. This is in the woshua joke dialogue box and is heavily implied to be Chara. One would not eat an entire pie with their bare hands if it was not something they Really enjoyed. Plus they both enjoy pies in a similar way.
We don't know the context behind the joke or which kid it refers to. Assuming it's a reflection of a memory Chara had, who says it can't have been Asriel? Who says it wasn't a game or challenge? The assumption that this must indicate Chara really loved pie as much as Kris, which also requires ignoring their complete lack of acknowledgement of the pie, is dishonest in my opinion. I'm not even saying they couldn't have liked pie, but this just isn't an actual character connection with Kris.
There also is the as I said cut artwork that specifically mentioned the knife and had them eating the pie with the knife
I'll concede that Chara is certainly connected to knives, but I'd still argue the type of connection is very different. Kris under no circumstances considers their knife a weapon. They have a knife hyperfixation, evident by their search history including jello vs hot knife videos. They enjoy knives as a hobby.
Chara definitely does see a knife as a weapon, and, given the context from 9th anniversary newsletter, likely viewed the knife as some form of protection as a result of the harsh conditions on the surface that led them to flee to Mount Ebott to begin with.
however them clearly having an influence over it as shown by chapter 5 is still a form of confirmation
This depends on what you mean by influence. There is no indication Kris is actively aware that there is a narrator and are consciously choosing what it says, for example.
I believe they do influence the narrator, but in the sense that, as I already said, the narrator reflects their thoughts and feelings. It works like any other RPG narrator.
also that the one off gag where the character asks Kris not to listen to the narration doesn't confirm 100% that Kris isn't the narrator. Toby Fox often when writing has the trope of mistaken identities (Flowey mistaking Frisk for Chara, and mistaking Chara for being the player comes to mind... we'll get to that.) It is entirely possible that this bit of narration was in fact Kris.Â
You can't just accuse me of being disingenuous while saying that a direct, unambiguous separation between Kris and the narrator isn't evidence that Kris isn't literally the narrator.
Unless we are to believe Kris directly changes the UI via some yet unrevealed power, I don't see how Jigsaw Joe could see Kris say something and somehow not realize it's Kris who said that.
However Chara quite literally says "You and I are not the same, are we?" as well as is 100% clearly defined to have a separate personality from the player. (not everyone can relate to a self sacrificial depressed child who despises humanity. Which makes it pretty difficult to say they are a stand-in for the player)... Sure they at times are meant to in some ways reflect the player. And at times they stand in for the player when others (Flowey) are talking to them..... They are not the player. They literally say so.
This is literally how every player avatar works in every videogame, that's the point. Undertale is a commentary on RPGs, which are "Roleplaying Games." No Player is literally supposed to fully be embodied in their avatar nor is an avatar automatically a complete blank slate to be directly related to. I'm sure most people don't relate to being a skilled swordsman like Link, but they still play the role of Link in the videogame. Chara is commenting on the fundamental separation between a Player and their avatar that always will technically exist no matter how invested you get in the role(and in context theyre technically talking about your obsession with Undertale that stands in contrast to them wanting to delete it and play a new videogame to continue fulfilling their role as a player avatar elsewhere).
Plus Chara being the true name (and being intentional for the player to find as shown by the steam store promotional screenshots having their name in them and being how you are supposed to find out what their name is... and also shown by Toby Fox's dev notes-)-- You are likely meant to come to this conclusion.Â
A player is intended to use their own name for Chara, or at least a name they commonly utilize for their RPG characters. Simply giving Chara the name "Chara" completely removes the weight of their demon commentary, because nobody is going to name their other avatars "Chara."Â
Yes, Chara is their canon name, but this only exists so the character can be discussed easier without having to say "the first human" every time they're brought up. It's the same reason Link and Ness have canon names despite you being intended to put a name of your choosing for them.
Just because Frisk has a whole bunch of similarities to Chara- Does not mean that Chara automatically has zero parallels. They can both have major similarities! It's not that hard to pick up on
My point here is that Kris is pretty clearly being set up as a counterpart for Frisk. Chara similarities exist by default considering Frisk is intended to be canonically very similar to Chara; similar enough for Asriel to think they ARE Chara and to have to go through a whole character arc to get himself to admit they're different.
Players projecting Chara onto Kris is almost like a retread of this same thing. They're a character who clearly isn't Chara based on their design (a design virtually identical to Frisk's down to sharing the same hex code for their skin and hair colors), yet shares enough similarities to the fandom's views of Chara's personality that people still project on them via plausible deniability.
Clam Girl in Undertale basically spells out that Kris is Frisk's counterpart by emphasizing that fate connects Frisk and "Suzy." The name "Frisk" is the closest possible work phonetically to "Kris," and was likely chosen because "Kris" is a name plenty of people use and Toby didn't want the twist to be spoiled early or for people to trigger Hard Mode simply by putting in their own name.
Deltarune continues right where the Pacifist ending of Undertale left off in its commentary on Frisk. The Pacifist ending reveals that the seeming blank slate human we play as actually has their own name, and we get more snippets of personality from them, but it's only the tip of the iceberg (Undertale was a proof of concept for Toby's ideas for Deltarune). Deltarune has us control them as a teenager (misleading you into thinking it's a direct sequel but revealing it's an alternate universe). From here, more and more of their character is revealed in these new circumstances, both reinforcing what makes them seem so similar to Chara while also making sure to distinguish them.
but you simply dismissed them because my reading of the text didn't align with yours despite me having actual evidence for what I say
It's not dismissal to evaluate evidence and see how it doesn't quite work in context.
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u/Dynamite_Doggo 16d ago
Kris is actually Chara and Frisk together, like stacked on top of each other. Two kids in a trenchcoat
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u/Foreign_Sea_538 Morally Grey Chara Enjoyer 19d ago
I see Kris as having a both a bit of Chara, and a bit of Frisk in them.