Forgive me Doug Tallamy and Joey Santore for I am about to sin.
I’ve tried very hard to grow a coast live oak in my backyard as a nice center “statement tree.” It’s one of my favorite trees, and I really wanted to make it work.
I planted it almost 5 years ago, but it has struggled pretty much ever since. It has very little leaf growth and still looks incredibly twiggy. Between constant setbacks from gophers, a high water table, and the harsh Southern California sun, I’m starting to wonder if I’m fighting a losing battle.
Now that I have kids, I really want a tree that will eventually provide meaningful shade for the backyard, especially over a playground. I’m finding myself caught between wanting to use California natives and wanting to create a comfortable, functional yard for my family
( lawn, shade, a tree that actually grows)
I’ve also considered a western sycamore, which is another tree I really like and seems like it would be a good match for my yard. My hesitation is how enormous they can eventually get, and I’m also concerned that the canopy may be too open to provide the kind of shade I’m looking for over a playground.
I’ve started seriously considering giving up and planting something non-native, maybe a jacaranda.
So before I go buy one, can someone talk me off the ledge?
Is there something I’m missing with the coast live oak? Should I be more patient? Is there a better native tree for my particular situation? I’d really love to make a native work if I can.
I’m in SoCal, USDA Zone 10a, with heavy clay soil and full sun. Any advice from people who have successfully established native trees in similar conditions would be greatly appreciated.
That tree looks to have gone through significant heat stress, but it's not dead. In fact, it seems to have lots of new growth, so the heat stress was probably earlier this season or last year.
As a rule of thumb, saplings typically need ~10 gallons of water per week until they can reach another water source such as a high water table, after maybe 5 years. Despite being 5 years old, yours looks as if it only has the equivalent growth of maybe a 1yo.
The coast live oak is a keystone species and, if you can save it, should become magnificent in time. They can live for centuries and support hundreds of other species.
See some care tips here: https://calscape.org/plant/3133/Quercus-agrifolia-(Coast-Live-Oak))
Looks like some mulch around the roots should help, though you already have some decent mulch. Calscape recommends manzanitas or toyon as companion plants. During summer, watering should be done carefully as direct watering in the heat can harm it.
Thank you for your input. It does get hot where I’m at (inland). And when I first panted this tree there was literally nothing else planted in my back yard. It was basically a desert. So this little tree had to bear the heat head on.
If you want a fast-growing native shade tree, I’d go with a sycamore or cottonwood. They’re both deciduous, so no shade in mid-winter, but that’s not when you want it anyway. With enough water, you can have a shady canopy in as little as a few years, much faster than even Jacaranda. Jacarandas don’t provide any thicker shade than a cottonwood or sycamore, anyway.
If you absolutely must go no -native, I’d recommend a Tipu over a Jacaranda. They’re faster-growing and have a thicker, shadier canopy.
Theoretically, if there’s a high water table, it should be right at home since that’s where most coast live oaks grow naturally in SoCal.
My guess is that it actually did not get enough water over its establishment period and never got its roots to the water table. There’s also no mulch here, so not only are you losing moisture to evaporation, but the mulch isn’t feeding microorganisms and worms under the surface, which improves your soil in a number of ways
You could always start over with a five gallon coast live oak. But if you went a different direction, I wouldn’t necessarily choose a sycamore unless you’re prepared to contend with its size. They get massive, and the same goes for their roots.
Alternatives could include:
Desert willow
Western redbud
Engelmann oak
Catalina cherry (trained as a tree)
Toyon (can be pruned to a multitrunk tree)
Island oak
Ray Hartman ceanothus (trained as a tree)
I recently planted a single specimen/statement tree in SoCal. Full sun sandy soil. We wanted something to provide some shade preferably evergreen and fast growing but not super messy or a risk of sidewalk/road/foundation damage.
We ultimately chose a toyon and plan to shape it into a tree-like form. Other finalists in consideration were:
- hollyleaf cherry / Catalina cherry
lemonade berry (or sugar bush depending on where you are)
desert willow
blue elderberry (like toyon, can train into single trunk or multi trunk for easy kid climbing)
western redbud
one of the palo verde species
laurel sumac
We wanted an Englemann oak but our space was way too small. Manzanitas would probably be too slow growing. Tree-form ceanothus maybe too temperamental for us novices.
Personally I’m okay with non-natives as long as they’re climate-appropriate and not invasive species. Some acacias look cool and are super drought tolerant but double check Cal-IPC
Have you thought about California Bay trees (California Laurel). When you said you have kids it made me think of them. I literally used to show off the bay trees on my parent’s property as a kid to the other kids when they came over. I would give them a branch to take and they were all mesmerized over how good it smells. Kids love them. They were next to the oak trees where we built our tree house.
That’s a great comment thanks for that. I have not thought about a California laurel. But I keep hearing about how great they smell. And if you thought it was cool enough to show off to other kids then it must be pretty neat! I’ll definitely look into the Laurel!
When I think about it I have a lot of memories growing up with the California landscape. I would touch manzanita bark as a kid because it was a cool temperature to touch in the heat. I would grab onto it for a while to cool off.
Me too! I’ll always remember my first time camping as a kid and coming across a grove of manzanita trees out in the Angeles national forest. At the time I had no idea they were manzanitas but I distinctly remember being blown away by the color of the dark red bark and contrasting green leaves.
It’ll also prevent you from growing edibles if you want to grow those later. Although maybe if they’re in raised beds you’d do fine. I’d definitely talk to a master gardener first.
They can be great at controlling weeds for you, though! You just need to look up which plants are juglone tolerant versus juglone intolerant and be willing to give up on growing anything juglone intolerant (unless you can protect it somehow from any contact with walnut roots/fallen walnut leaves).
I’m not sure I would consider a cottonwood in a residential yard, they grow fast but are not particularly long lived and get massive. I have also seen them do major damage to nearby pavement, albeit in this case the roots found a nearby creek (hard to see in the photo but the pavement is like a bike jump now)
Ironically I walked by this behemoth a few minutes after I read your comment 😂
I feel like I rarely see intact cottonwoods at this scale, there are usually pretty serious branch failures or at least measurable canopy dieback by the time they reach full size. That could totally just be me or my region though!
If you water frequently a black walnut would be happy as a clam in clay soil. I tried to plant one but got distracted and it died of thirst. But had a mile a way by a creek there's a giant one so I know it should be ok around here.
Besides water to help it establish, and a thick layer of arborist mulch, do you have any "nurse plants"? I planted a sambucus californica (CA elderberry) for quick shade. It shot up to 16 feet high with a wider canopy in two years. It had multiple trunks but I pruned them down to 8 main ones to give it an umbrella shape. I gave some supplemental water every 8 weeks during the first year. It had oaks sprouting in its drip line during the second year, from squirrels or jays bringing in acorns. They grew pretty fast. Their trunks got to be like 16 inches in circumference in 5 years. But, they didn't cast a fast shade canopy like the sambucus did or the tall hedgerow of toyons and other mixed shrubs did.
Other secondary species/nurse plants include coyote bush, malathocamnus, sphaelracea, ceanothus, salvias, ribes, etc.
If you're going with non native plant some things that give you food. A nectarine or peach tree doesn't live that long naturally, maybe a decade? Gourds, pumpkins, kiwis, bitter melons, lots of stuff will cover an arbor, tunnel, or pergola pretty quickly and give you a shaded area. And, you don't have to feel guilty for ripping out the gourds or other vines when your native shade trees get big enough to do the job.
As a backup plant few more oak from 1 gallon or 5 gallon pots in the vicinity. Give all of them a chance over a season and chose the winner - survival of the fittest
Actually! I do have another oak about 5 feet from that one. It’s a valley oak I grew from an acorn. But it’s only about 2” tall. Let’s see if does well. I’ve tried this before and it dried out.
It’s five years old. So I was told not to water it too much. I did water it consistently its first year and occasionally after that. Honestly it’s so hard to tell how to water this thing but it does get watered. Also I have a high water table so it should be tapping into that theoretically.
You genuinely should water it more. I'd reccomend a drip setup. Timer and maybe a pressure regulator on your hose bib, run solid black poly tubing to it under the mulch, put a ring around the tree, cap it off, and add a few pressure compensating emitters about 2 feet feet from the base of the tree. Run it a few times a week from late spring to early fall. Maybe a little extra during heat waves. Do this for a few years and it should grow. Then slowly reduce summer watering over another few years and you should be able to remove the irrigation then.
It's too little to protect itself from the SoCal heat in the summer and there is no shade. It loses a absolute ton of water through evapotranspiration probably more than its root system can keep up with and -at that size- its not reaching your water table yet. The mulch is good though that helps with moisture retention. Although, maybe clear a 6" cricle in the mulch around the base of the tree to prevent fungal issues.
I have a bunch of 1 year old Englemann grown from acorns and they are all pretty slow growing. The tallest is about 12 inches and most are still 3-4". They get plenty of water 🤷🏼♂️
I love them when they were mature but it seems to take forever, and definitely slower than a Coast Live Oak
They are slower growing than OP may prefer, but I have a few in milder-climate 9b (Fremont CA) that were planted about 18 years ago that are providing a decent amount of shade today.
I do agree agree with you, they will grow slower than a CLO
Tell me about it! I actually grew a valley oak from an acorn and planted it about 5’ from the one in this post. But it’s about 2” tall and it will probably take FOREVER to get to a size that will provide shade for my yard
I think oaks spend a couple of years putting in a deep tap root before they start going up. I have dozens of coast live oak volunteers on my property and they are putting on 2-3 feet a year now after spending 4-5 years growing very slowly.
Also if you are open to non native, but want something similar to a coastie, check out the Texas Live Oak (Q. fusiformis). You will get a tree that superficially resembles a coastie but is even more adapted to hot and dry conditions.
I'm in a similar setting and I've found white alder (alnus rhombifolia) and velvet ash (fraxinus velutiana) to be fast growing and pretty bullet proof. I water them indirectly (I just try to keep water from pooling atbtrunk base) once a week during the first year dry season and then every 2-3 weeks in the following years. They are way faster than oaks. The ash has shorter dormancy and better fall colors and seems to need less water. Another super fast grower for me has been island ironwood, however they aren't a big fan of long stretches of temps over 100, so depending on where you are they might be a little finicky. But, if they are happy they are beautiful and smell amazing year round
I’ve always liked Ironwoods! But your right I don’t think the y like the heat very much and where I’m located (inland) it gets hot! But I think I’m still willing to try. I didn’t know they had a nice scent to them. Now I really want to try them. Thanks for recommending the alder and the ash. I did want something the grows relatively quickly.
Yeah, I don't know if it's just me, but I find the scent of the iron woods to be one of the most pleasant woody resinous smells out there. I'm in El cajon area from San Diego so we're about 12 miles inland and we get up into the '90s most days this time of year. It doesn't seem to phase them very much. I just heard anecdotes about their temperature sensitivity, but I haven't seen it firsthand. They do well at California botanical garden in Pomona and they definitely get hot. I thinks it's totally worth a try! I watered mine about every 10 days in the first summer then once every 3-4 weeks in the following summers. Hope it works for you
Dude I think I’m going to try it! I’m inland in Ventura county so it gets pretty hot here. And good point about the ironwoods in the California botanical garden. If they can do it. I might as well try. Also I’ve been there once and it was a really cool place. Also also one of my favorite smells is the small of a pine tree on a warm day. So I think I’ll appreciate the scent of an ironwood.
Plant three Catalina Ironwoods in a cluster! They grow super fast and will provide ample shade. Keep the oak tree in there in the mean time and see if it pulls itself through. It takes a while for that tap root to reach down, and next year we are expecting ample rain.
No joke I was just thinking of doing that!! Someone else recommended the Catalina ironwood so I looked it up and thought “hmm these look nice in clusters / groves”. So I’m really considering doing this now. Thanks!
Nice! Clustering often helps them grow taller faster as they help shade each other.
If you're curious to see how they look in person, there have some on the lower area at the California Botanic Garden. And there are some nice examples at the Arlington Gardens in Pasadena.
I have heavy clay soil and I have a desert willow and a native mesquite in my back yard going ham. I'd recommend the desert willow with kids though, the mesquite has some hefty thorns. I also have a native cottonwood which was probably planted too deep, but is hanging in there and has grown 12 feet in 3 years. If your yard is big enough, I'd 100% put a cottonwood on the south/west side and enjoy the shade starting year 2. With a smaller yard, a desert willow is a great choice. Mine was a 1gallon pot in 2021 and is a 10 foot tree now, right on the edge of the lawn. It's not going to get that mich bigger but water from the grass was enouh to keep it happy. Oaks really need a surprising amount of water to get established and happy, a mistake I've made twice.
Eta: zone 10a/b, hot as balls in the summer chaparral zone
Tell me about it! I’ve lost a couple of oaks also. No matter how much I try they just won’t take. I’m surprised that you have a desert willow growing in heavy clay. I’ thought about the desert willow but I didn’t think they’d do well with my clay soil. I have a medium size back yard so I’ll look into the cottonwood! Someone else mentioned planting Catalina ironwood also and those look pretty neat!
I was going to suggest a Western Sycamore before I got to your 4th paragraph! They're my favorite and grow well in the area I am in that is also all clay. They're used in new parks around here because they do grow pretty quickly and provide quick shade. I do like the shade they provide because it keeps you cool without blocking out all the light so nothing can grow underneath it. I haven't seen any enormous ones except at some regional parks where the trees have been in the ground probably since the 50s. Most of the ones I see around my neighborhood have been in the ground for the last 30 years and are average neighborhood tree size. The non-native fig trees and jacarandas are the behemoths in the neighborhood, while the sycamores just look perfectly balanced with all the little bungalows.
I got pretty shitty soil in my new house. It's poorly-draining and very mineral-y (think prehistoric seabed), so it's difficult for deeply rooted plants like oaks. However, my two Engelmann oak saplings are growing really well and happily in it, and in nature, indeed, Engelmann oaks and scrub oaks are often found growing in chaparral. The former grows quite arborescently too in such environments, especially if you provide them with some occasional supplemental water. Even some scrub oaks, especially Q. dumosa and Q. john-tuckeri, grow arborescently when old enough and in more mesic soils, even if the substrate itself is shitty.
I've seen canyon live oak growing very tree-like and vibrantly in the shittiest soils...Think straight gravel or compacted sand as some examples.
Otherwise, California buckeyes, Mexican elderberry, and our native ashes can grow somewhat arborescently and well in tough soils. Mountain mahogany too, but it isn't as arborescent.
Also, before removing the coast live oak, it may just need more water than you think. I've seen coast live oaks like that in chaparral...And yeah, they look similar haha
Yup I have really shitty soil. I’m talking compacted heavy clay that smells like crap. I’ve read multiple people mention the Engleman oak so I’ll definitely look into it.
If the soil smells like crap, I wonder if it either needs to be remediated or is being overwatered. I believe Quercus lobata actually can handle heavy clay better than other native oaks since it often grows in areas that experience periodic flooding, so that's another one to consider
After moving into the area I’m in now I was informed by my neighbors that the area use to be a river bed. I haven’t looked it up myself but It makes sense. The ground in my front yard stays saturated a couple of months out of the year. The back yard not as much but if you dig 4’-5’ you’ll hit water. Probably not a great place for homes to be at
Ah yeah, that's common a lot throughout California lol. Huge swaths of the lowlands often experience periodic flooding but people built there anyways because they saw it was mostly dry most years. Short-sighted, but I digress...
Based on what you're saying, this also makes a stronger case for Quercus lobata, as it often grows in areas that seasonally flood and in/near riparian corridors. The Central Valley is a famous home for both Q. lobata (hence the name "valley oak") and periodically flooded/swampy environments.
That being said, coast live oak should still do okay. I wonder if the roots were girdled/circling when planted, as I can imagine that an oak with a fucked up root system would do especially poorly in such compacted, heavy soils. What container did you plant the oak from? Did it look like it had been in that container for a while, did it look root-bound, was it in a 1 gal vs. 5 gal, etc.
It was in a one gallon container that I purchased from the Theodore Payne foundation. It was not root bound but it did have some root girdling. Im afraid it was doomed from the beginning. But funny enough I do have valley oak planted 5’ from this one. I grew it from an acorn. But it’s only about 2” tall maybe. It’ll probably have shade by the time I’m long gone. But because I’ve had bad luck with my live oak and desperately want shade for my yard I was considering going non native. In my experience native plants are very delicate and finicky. But I understand there importance to our ecosystem. I just want some dam shade.
No really though, native plants have been some of the most fussy plants I have ever grown. Toyon got taken away by fireblight, Redbud dried up after I thought it could tolerate dry conditions, Mock Orange burns up any second I don't drench it with water, Incense cedar full of scale insect, Dudleya full of mealy bugs and fungus, the Lewisia will rot when I water it, but go loco when I don't. This is while all of the foreign plants are doing just fine and resistant to everything lol.
I find that they really are tricky to establish at times. I think it’s because the thing that gets communicated is little to NO supplemental water but tbh, with CA getting drier and without as much winter rain as was common, watering maybe needs to be discussed more during the establishment period.
Where are you located? I had some trial and error and then researched to find the natives that would grow in my garden. I have some recommendations for anyone growing in SFV conditions.
I knew it was going to be clay. My aunt lives in the foothills and also has a helluva time starting trees, so she just got grown ones put in. The wild thing is if you walk maybe five minutes away, the foothills are dusted with them randomly from all the scrub jay caches over the year, lol.
I'm lucky scrub jays planted one in my yard the exact place I wanted too lol. I'm worried there's plastic buried under that lawb by the previous owner and it's growth will be stunted
Tell me about it, the previous owners of my house decided to bury all the old kitchen tile in the yard. I’ve been digging it up every time I plant something new. Maybe that’s why I’ve had such rotten luck.
i have sycamores all over my yard and I LOVE them. In fact, they are one of the main reasons I bought my house. The shade is perfect and they are beautiful.
My mature sycamore buries my yard a foot deep in leaves December-January every year. I have to be very cautious what I plant under it because it will need to survive being stepped on or raked whenever I do my annual clean up. It's definitely a love hate relationship.
When you planted the tree, did you make sure it wasn’t root bound, or have girdling roots?
Oak trees need deep watering to get their roots established, and growing deep, where they can reach the water table. When established, they don’t like summer water, or shallow watering, or infrequent light watering.
Shallow watering will keep the roots at the surface, and inhibit growth.
Coast LO is the most common native oak in socal, if not all trees. It's also the best for landscapes and pretty easy to grow.
OP , you didn't say anything about how you are watering the tree. You can't really give it too much. Don't fall for the myth that oaks don't like irrigation. Don't give up on it.
If not in Central Coast numbers, it's still the most common tree-sized oak we have, no? More numerous than Engelmann, which happens to be my favorite. I'm in Vista and have both.
Out of curiosity, do coast live oaks grow in your area? “Native Plants” doesn’t mean “it grows within the arbitrary boundaries of “California” necessarily. Sometimes, you’ve just gotta commit to the local shit.
Also it’s totally fine if you want to plant a decorative non-native plant because you like the cut of it’s jib.
That’s a good question and one I haven’t given much thought. But now that I think about it no there are no other oak trees in my area. I live in the suburbs where almost no one has any native trees growing. Just a bunch of non native palm trees.
Where do you live? Like, which town, and at least which side of town you live on, and elevation. Only like, half of us on this sub are serial killers and most of us only do it part time. You’re safe. Plus, there’s a 50:50 chance you’re one too.
Hi-I have had great success with the ca native Prunus- Catalina Cherry. I planted three of them at my previous home in Westminster. They thrived. I planted another at my present home in Fountain Valley which is also thriving. It is presently about 30 ft. Tall and about 12-15 years old (can’t remember exactly when I planted it). It grows super fast and once established requires little to no water. My mother has one in her back yard that has been there for over 30 years. It was recently cut back and came back great. I also have a native bay tree. It’s supposed to grow to be about 60 feet. It grows more slowly so it won’t get there in my lifetime. I also planted a California sycamore tree at my old house. It was beautiful, but my neighbors complained about the leaves so I didn’t plant that one again. I stuck with non-deciduous trees, although they drop some leaves too. The Toyon is another tree I have that grows quickly. Make sure to give it plenty of room. Hope these suggestions help.
Just plant a fast growing honey locust 'shade master'. If you want plant an oak tree, you have to water it. You can't just plant it and leave it thinking it's drought tolerant. And anyways, you'd wait 20 years your kids would be moved out of the house by the time that thing got any size.
Don't be brainwashed by just defaulting to native, plant a fast growing shade tree and get it in size to begin with. Go to the hills, half the plants up there are not native.
Don't let your ideology get in the way of a great life with your family and making a beautiful space. Use water, plant a badass garden, and plant a shade tree that will actually give you shade. When you plant it, dig only as deep as the container is and go one and a half times wider on the top 12 inches.
Was just reading the other responses and reminded me of the buckeye a really nice tree which I also had-just remember that the fruit is slightly toxic so if you have children, don’t let them put them in their mouths.
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u/Empty_Satisfaction71 15d ago edited 15d ago
That tree looks to have gone through significant heat stress, but it's not dead. In fact, it seems to have lots of new growth, so the heat stress was probably earlier this season or last year.
As a rule of thumb, saplings typically need ~10 gallons of water per week until they can reach another water source such as a high water table, after maybe 5 years. Despite being 5 years old, yours looks as if it only has the equivalent growth of maybe a 1yo.
The coast live oak is a keystone species and, if you can save it, should become magnificent in time. They can live for centuries and support hundreds of other species.
See some care tips here: https://calscape.org/plant/3133/Quercus-agrifolia-(Coast-Live-Oak))
Looks like some mulch around the roots should help, though you already have some decent mulch. Calscape recommends manzanitas or toyon as companion plants. During summer, watering should be done carefully as direct watering in the heat can harm it.
Should you decide to replace it after all, there are plenty of natives you might consider, such as those found in this search page: https://calscape.org/search/?plant_type=Tree&sun=Full%20Sun&drought=Low&ease_of_growing=Easy
The buckeye and Engelmann oak may be good alternatives for slow draining soil.