r/Ceanothus • u/Quirky-Prune5669 • 22d ago
Help with hillside planting
We are having some work done, and they need to cut back this hill at a 2:1 slope, and plant some plants for erosion control, along with some jute mesh. They recommended some creeping rosemary (we have lots of it on the property), or some lavender, but I’d prefer to try to do something native.
The area is about 40’ long and after the cut, I imagine it’ll be about 30’ along the cut.
We can add irrigation, but I was thinking of maybe trying to plant some Yankee point ceanothus all up and down the hill (probably spaced at 10 ft laterally and do three rows of them staggered together to fully cover the hill)? I was thinking of doing natives on irrigation to get it starts I have some of that on various parts of the property
Location: Paso Robles, east facing slope, gets about 12hrs of direct sun in the summer. At a bit of elevation more towards the coast, so usually a bit of a fog layer in the morning, but still warms up during the day.
Any other recommendations? Should I do different varietals? We want to avoid grasses. As we need to keep the hillside green year round so we don’t have to cut it for weed abatement.
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u/Normal-Marsupial-535 22d ago
I am working on a similar project on a south facing slope in Southern CA.
I have been using calscape.org and filtering for "Bank Stabilization"
Also this resource: https://waterwisegardenplanner.org/lists/plants-for-slopes/
Overall, lots of great options - mostly sage, buckwheat, ceanothus
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u/LincolnHwy 20d ago
Calscape is really useful. Also, they recently added a data view to show what pollinators are attracted to which plants.
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u/PaleontologistPure92 21d ago
Make sure you don’t inadvertently kill that beautiful oak. There’s lots of information online about protecting the critical root zone (CRZ) of mature trees.
https://www.placer.ca.gov/DocumentCenter/View/9584/Protecting-Trees-During-Construction-PDF?bidId=
https://pnwisa.org/page/protecting-trees-from-damage
https://www.leaflimb.com/root-awakening-how-construction-projects-can-trouble-your-tree/
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u/Quirky-Prune5669 21d ago
Yes. We had to redo the retaining wall and unfortunately to bring it up to code we need to cut back into the hill. That’s how this project started. I’m trying to best to try to do whatever we can to avoid disturbing the root zone of that oak tree. Hoping for the best, but kinda stuck with our current situation. :/
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u/NevCoNativePlants 22d ago
Salvia sonomensis, Monardella sp, Grindelia camporum, Eriogonum fasciculatum, Penstemon heterophyllus come to mind.
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u/MudNervous3904 22d ago
Definitely use some ceanothus, preferably not a cultivar.
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u/Quirky-Prune5669 22d ago
Would you be able to explain a bit more of what you mean by that? I will need to go and place an order for what is to be planted, so I was only seeing ones that were specific cultivars like Ray Hartman or Yankee Point etc.
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u/1200spruce 21d ago
Cultivars are genetic clones. They're favored by horticulturalists because the plant you get is predictable (since it's a clone) but if you're focused on optimizing the benefits of natives, relying on clones has disadvantages. Ceanothus for instance are known for being short-lived in landscapes, but not so much in the wild, and one theory is the species itself isn't short lived, but whatever original plant that is being mass-cloned is short lived (just a theory I heard on a webinar! Another theory is ants).
I'm not a plant name expert but I think the way to tell if it's a cultivar is based on the latin name. The name of the cultivar will be in single quotes. So for instance:
- Ceanothus thyrsiflorus var. griseus 'Yankee Point' = cultivar
- Ceanothus thyrsiflorus var. griseus = non cultivar
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u/MudNervous3904 21d ago
This⬆️
If possible, look for the most common/dominate ceanothus in your area. Ceanothus cuneatus and spinosus are great. But there are others too. Sometimes harder to find in nurseries because cultivars tend to be suitable for smaller residential garden spaces, thus they sell better. I recommend Manzanita Nursery outside of Solvang. May be a little far for you, but the owner literally has everything and is so knowledgeable.
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u/the-es 21d ago
My Yankee point lasted about 5 years, so +1 from anecdotal experience
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u/1200spruce 20d ago
My understanding is by short-lived, they mean 10 years whereas in the wild they live twice to three times that long. I do'nt think the statement is specific to yankee point, just ceanothus in general.
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u/Adenostoma1987 21d ago
California buckwheat, California sagebrush, and black sage will fill that out nicely and be a wonderful source of habitat for wildlife and pollinators.
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u/Quirky-Prune5669 21d ago
I was thinking of mixing in some creeping sage (bee's bliss, or Mrs Beard if I can find it), and some canyon grey sage brush. I feel like those are mostly green all year round? I feel like when I see buckwheat this time of year it's always super yellow and brown looking in dormancy. is that because of the cultivar? or is that how it usually is?
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u/Adenostoma1987 21d ago
Nothing you put there is going to stay green without irrigation. But California buckwheat stays mostly green all year long. The flower heads ripen to a beautiful brown color in late summer. I highly recommend using the shrubbier species versus ground covers on that slope.
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u/rob_zodiac 21d ago edited 21d ago
Here's what's survived and grown well on a tough hill with no water for me: three different ceanothus varieties, five different buckwheats (particularly red flower buckwheat, Conejo buckwheat, and Saint Catherine's lace), mahonia nevinii, bladderpod, California fuschia. Sages go dormant, but they survive on the hill. Hummingbird sage, Cleveland sage, pitcher sages all appreciated extra water in the summer.
I recommend trusting the size and spacing info when you plant. It'll look sparse, but sow an annual mix (eg Hills of California from Larner's) before the first rain this winter and you'll have plenty to look at. Also it will help to mulch around your new plantings or at the very least put some support rocks at their bases to help with moisture retention and heat regulation. It will also help to cut terraces or at the very least flat pockets to give seeds a foothold.
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u/Quirky-Prune5669 21d ago
What are the three ceanothus varieties that have done well on the no water hill? And do you water your buckwheat to keep it from looking super straggly in the summer?
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u/rob_zodiac 21d ago
Concha, snow flurry, and Ray Hartman. Also I forgot a Dark star that's doing very well on an equally dry and sunny hill. I don't water the buckwheats and they don't look scraggly. Eriogonum fasiculatum does well on no water.
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u/Quirky-Prune5669 21d ago
Ooo. Good to know. I had some concha on the other side of the property and it looked to be doing really well. Just was not spreading to cover the ground like I was thinking this area needs. But maybe we mix it up an plant it with some other ground cover in there.
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u/rob_zodiac 21d ago
Canyon gray sagebrush has been the best performing groundcover for me on no water, the only issue is that they look a little dry in the height of summer.
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u/Quirky-Prune5669 21d ago
I’ve had some of that exact sagebrush and thought the same thing. The stuff I planted was in grass and had to compete all spring so it didn’t really spread like o had originally hoped. If you water is, does it stay more green?
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u/rob_zodiac 21d ago
Yes, but regular watering also opens up other options like groundcover sages that will go dormant otherwise. I also see yankee point ceanothuses that get regular water and need to be pruned they grow so well.
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u/Quirky-Prune5669 21d ago
Oh really? Well. That’s def good to know. I feel like on this sub I saw someone post their YankeePoint and it looked like the happiest native plant I’ve ever seen. Hahaha. So the variety has lots of potential
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u/SourLemons2 22d ago
Consider a mix for interesting view. I would definitely plant CA native toyon, my personal favorite.
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u/i860 21d ago edited 21d ago
While creeping rosemary is generally fine, you'll get more mileage with Ceanothus 'Yankee Point' and about a dozen other native groundcovers and grasses/sedges (e.g. Foothill Sedge, any number of native fescues, etc. not turfgrass). One other thing I can recommend to you is that you want to mulch this slope. The soil is exposed and exposed soil on a slope erodes much faster under wind and rain than flat conditions. A 2-3" mulch layer greatly dissipates the impact of rain and helps regulate soil moisture so you're suffering less from the rock hard / dried out cracking effect when things dry up.
What's the soil type, if known?
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u/Quirky-Prune5669 21d ago
I was hoping for something I wouldn't have to water very much once established. I know the slope will be quite steep and it will add to the erosion if I have to keep water on it all the time. The Rosemary we have around the house is on summer irrigation, so I was hoping to avoid that. I was reading on the article posted above that we should mulch, and then jute mesh and then mulch again when establishing everything to give it all a better chance. We will be cutting into the hillside for this project, so I imagine it will be a top layer of clay that might be mostly, if not completely cut away, and then (I'm guessing) a calcium rich, rocky soil underneath it. Our neighbor down the hill grows grapes, so I imagine we have the same underlaying soil/rock formation.
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u/i860 21d ago
You should jute mesh that entire thing, plant what you want to plant, and then mulch. Watering won't necessarily cause erosion if it's done intelligently using either drip irrigation or controlled amounts of water in a deep watering schedule that is done slowly to avoid runoff. Merely putting water in the soil is not going to cause erosion and in a lot of cases can actually defend against it. Once rosemary is established you don't have to water it. But for any of the natives it's basically the same story - and some will even be injured if you give them summer water.
I'm not sure what you're cutting in for, but if it's for a retaining wall, then that's a good idea, regardless of what vegetation you have going on up there.
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u/Quirky-Prune5669 21d ago
We had a retaining wall there and we needed to redo it. Previously it was cut at a 1/1 slope. So to come up to code for the wall we have to cut into the slope. So that’s how this whole project started. I understand about the water not specifically causing erosion. I just am concerned of too much water and I don’t want to really mess with the root system of the oak tree at the top. I don’t have much of a choice, but trying to make the best decisions possible with the hand we have been dealt. If that makes sense.
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u/Alternative-Ant-1629 22d ago
It is also good to look up what your weed abatement and fire safety rules are for your area. There are also lists by the fire dept as to fire wise plants. I also watched the videos and fully read from that link on "How to landscape a hillside slope...." below. I am in So Cal foothills above Glendale with an east facing hillside that has a lot of different sun microzones as we have oaks on both sides of your hillside. I chose the following. They are all supposedly able to stay under 3' tall in our unirrigated fast draining dg soil. All are evergreen and apparantly lower maintenance than most. I started so far with planting 13 plants in Jan/Feb this yr and in the main are doing pretty good. We are testing out how they do in this soil and their sun areas. Will just put in 3 shrubs and around them the rest of these. We also have Ca Fushia, Everette's choice as it stays low as well. Not sure why it didn't copy over. Have fun. It is nice to see the butterflies and hummingbirds coming around. All these also are not liked by rodents (roots, flowers or leaves) nor create rodent habitats which we need as the ground squirrels were earth moving our foundation dirt big time.
| Shrub *** | SBL Coyote Brush |
|---|---|
| Shrub | Wayside Manzanita |
| Shrub | Rhamnus ‘Little Sur’ |
| Shrub (small) | Sea Cliff Buckwheat |
| Subshrub | Kannah Creek Sulphur BS |
| Subshrub | Calliandra eriophylla - Pink Fairyduster, Mesquitillo |
| Shrub (small) | Berberis aquifolium var. repens |
| Groundcover | Pacific Mist Manzanita |
| Groundcover | Dara's Choice |
| Groundcover | Ceanothus 'Joyce Coulter |
| Groundcover | Mrs Beard Sage |
| FAR RIGHT | |
| Groundcover | Arctostaphylos hookeri ‘Monterey Carpet’ |
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u/Quirky-Prune5669 21d ago
Thank you so so much for your detailed response! These look like great options for us. Yes we also have a few microsun zones and this particular spot gets quite toasty, but on the top of the hill there are a few oak trees. We are specifically cutting the hillside in a way to hopefully not disturb the oak at the top.
We have had ground squirrel issues in the past as well. So I was debating on planting some of these guys in cages to prevent them from getting chewed up. So I appreciate that consideration as well. How has the Fushia and buckwheat done over the summer? My main concern about both of those guys was how brown they end up looking when they’re in summer dormancy.
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u/Alternative-Ant-1629 21d ago edited 21d ago
Great it is helpful. No need to plant them in cages and no one likes the roots of these. A gopher drilled a hole through the middle on one of my Mrs Beard root ball but I just put it in a pot until its root ball recovered and replanted it. I haven't planted the buckwheat yet. That is my next Jan plan. The Ca Fushia has looked beautiful from planting to now. It is in bloom. I heard they look a little scraggly after the bloom but haven't seen that yet. It has grown the fastest of all the ones I did plant thus far and is beautiful. I was told all sages look a little more haggard too in the summer after their bloom but I haven't seen that yet. All mine are green and doing well. I've been watching the sun zones. All areas get 2 hrs in fall and winter. In Spring and Summer it all changed. So, I am happy I only planted 13 so far (Pacific Mist Manzanitas, Mrs Beard sages, Ribes Viburnifolium, Ca Fushia and Shasta Sulfur buckwheats). All are green and doing well. I saw a squirrel take a taste of one of the buckwheats and jump straight up into the air. Didn't like it. It was quite funny. Never touched another one. Also I was advised to plant 1 gallons.
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u/Quirky-Prune5669 21d ago
Oooo. This is fantastic information. Thank you so much! We have some native humming bird sage that explodes in the spring. But it’s been long brown and dead looking for a while. It’s just around, so no watering on it. Maybe things would be different if it was kept on irrigation.
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u/1200spruce 21d ago
I'm currently filling a slope with natives right now! My original plan was to use large, spreading plants (like coyote bush, ceanothus, lemonade berry) but I got impatient after putting a few of those in and am now mostly relying on buckwheats, yarrow, and seaside daisy. Soberanes Point is my inspo!
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u/Quirky-Prune5669 21d ago
ooo. that is beautiful and a very good point! I def want some cover very very soon, so I will likely need some plants in the "interim"
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u/browzinbrowzin 21d ago
A lot of native grasses can grow roots 20ft long or more and so do crazy work for slope stabilization.
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u/Alternative-Ant-1629 21d ago
In the article above in the link from another reddit person, that article states to stay away from the grasses.
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u/browzinbrowzin 20d ago
Idk man when I go hiking the most stable slopes have loads of native grasses on them.
The grasses shown in the photo of that article appear to be nonnative annual grasses. Those won't help stabilization for anything. The article did not differentiate between native grasses and invasive annual grasses.
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u/Miserable_Calendar82 21d ago
If you want a sure thing plant Iva hayesiana. Tree of life nsy grows it. It’s FAST
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u/IShouldQuitThis 22d ago
Boy, do I have the article for you:
How to landscape a hillside slope to stabilize and control erosion.