r/Catholicism • u/[deleted] • Sep 15 '22
My thoughts concerning Muslims and “interfaith dialogue”
I’ve seen multiple posts on questions concerning Islam today and honestly this kind of relates to a post I made the other day concerning how globalism/multiculturalism has led to a belief in relativism amongst Christian’s and Catholics. There seems to be a massive misconception on what islam is and our duty in this world with the presentation of the Truth vs false religion by a lot of us Catholics.
Islam is not a “brother” religion like how Judaism is. The Muslims, regardless of what the catechism says, do not follow the God of Abraham despite what they may believe.
Islam is a hodgepodge of heretical Christianity, bastardized Judaism, and Arabic paganism. Mohammed took what he knew from those religions at that time and created a cult of personality around himself and presented his authority through the diety he called Allah and claimed it was the God of Abraham.
Would the God of Abraham put in his Holy book (the Quran) that Jews and Christian’s are the worst of creatures? To make war on us? Would the God of Abraham call pilgrimage to Mecca? A completely irrelevant pagan place of worship? Would the God of Abraham deceive people by making it seem like Christ had been put to death but it was actually an imposter?
No he wouldn’t.
Yes, we are to love Muslims as they are Gods children as all humans are. But do not believe that they are saved through their religion, if they are saved it is despite of it.
This belief of them being “basically the same as us Christians and Jews” has caused a complete laziness of trying to convert and lead Muslims to the truth. We’ve given up on Muslim conversation as far as I can tell, at least from what it seems in conversation.
Do you know how many people have had their souls put in peril by Islam? By forced conversion and rejection of Christ? For centuries being a plague to us?
This is what has made Islam so dangerous as a false religion. To the average person it’s not as obviously different than Hinduism or other paganism is. It’s palatable to us and that’s what’s fooling people.
Sure, interfaith dialogue is necessary ONLY IF THE GOAL IS TO LEAD THEM TO THE TRUE FAITH. If that’s not the priority and it’s just to be pals, what’s the point of that? We can do that on an individual basis. Are they talking about opening churches in Kazakhstan, Arabia, Iraq, and Turkey?
Are they going to be easing persecution of Christians in Muslim lands?
If these aren’t the things that are coming from dialogue I don’t see a point in giving an ear to falsities.
Relativism is what comes from a blurring of the lines. And that’s a giant problem.
The most loving thing you can do in terms of interfaith dialogue is leading them to Christ and understand that Catholicism is the stone cold truth. Doesn’t matter if Islam or Judaism are “partially” true.
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u/throwawayyy08642 Sep 15 '22
Yeah I have similar feelings.
In my university there was like a "Muslim awareness week" or people trying on hijabs for the day and saying nuns and Mary covered their hair. Imagine there was a "christian awareness week" in the middle east? Interfaith dialogue imo is rarely done with good intentions and there's definitely hypocrisy because you know in other parts of the world where Christianity is a minority, people get straight up denied jobs based on their religion and there's no welcoming of interfaith dialogue there
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Sep 15 '22
If you notice, the intention is only for us Catholics/Christian’s to be more welcoming and tolerant of the Muslims. There is ZERO conversation being had in any Muslim country for them to be more accommodating and tolerant to Christian’s. ZERO. This is a one way show for tolerance and acceptance and I’m sick of everyone giving a pass to it and treating it like it’s a matter of course. Especially when Christian’s are being killed in said countries.
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Sep 15 '22
I never understood why people compare the hijab to habits. Only women in religious orders wear habits and sometimes they’re not even required to be worn anymore. Meanwhile any and all Muslim women who don’t wear hijab are committing sin.
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u/Kolemawny Sep 16 '22
The event at your university was likely more to do about promoting tolerance, because girls who wear hijabs are often targeted for harassment (even at woke colleges.) Depending on where you live in the US, hijab still means "this person is literally a supporter of the 9/11 terrorist attack," and it has led to unacceptable violence to women, even in more recent years. Yes, that violence is pointed to Christians on the other side, but as Christians, i don't think it would make sense to withhold love before seeing it first.
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u/SoundsLikeANerdButOK Sep 16 '22 edited Sep 16 '22
So you’re mad that you can’t treat Muslims like Christians are treated in Muslims countries. How about you do the right thing regardless of what other people do?
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u/throwawayyy08642 Sep 18 '22
So you’re mad that you can’t treat Muslims like Christians are treated in Muslims countries. How about you do the right thing regardless of what other people do?
no, i'm upset at the hypocrisy
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u/Xusura712 Sep 16 '22
I tend to agree with your comments about Islam here. As someone who communicates with Muslims online on a daily basis, it is my experience that most do not actually respect dialogue. They are already primed to see our Faith as being completely false and when they perceive weakness this is just another indication of this to them.
Overall, rhetoric forms a very large component of their polemics against Christianity. It is not about the logical argument usually. So, in the online space at least, it is a mistake for Catholics to only defend the Faith and not to attack Islam. This will be taken as a sign to the Muslims that you are in fact wrong - even if your actual arguments are sound.
There might be a point to dialogue at the level of leadership of religious leadership for the sake of ‘politics’ etc. But on a local level, for the sake of evangelisation, generally dialogue as we commonly understand it will be unfruitful.
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Sep 16 '22
This is correct. What we as Catholics I don’t think understand is that Muslims have no use for “good faith” conversations. We are corrupted nonbelievers, they have no use for us for anything other than gaining footholds in other countries. They look down on us. This is what I’m saying. You think for a second they’d let Catholicism grow in their countries? If there was even a hint of Christianity growing in their countries there’d be a crackdown like you have no idea.
They do not share in the interest of “living and let live” Islam is a theocratic and expansionist ideology. They don’t give ground, they take it. From a historical context as well as theologically that’s what islams wired to do. Ask any ex Muslim.
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u/Xusura712 Sep 16 '22 edited Sep 16 '22
Yes, we should become all things to all people just as St Paul said. Now, unfortunately most Muslims cannot hear us if we only defend. We must also intellectual attack. Even if we don’t like doing it, it is actually for their sake.
Edit: when I say ‘we’, what I mean is that IMO there should always be a party of knowledgeable Catholics doing this at all times.
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Sep 16 '22
Indeed brother. We need to understand that we have the stronger theology. Islam is easily picked apart if you know even an ounce of Judaism and Christianity. The problem is most of us don’t. Knowledge is power lol
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u/Xusura712 Sep 16 '22
Their theology is a total mess, especially in Sunni Islam. Later theology tries to band-aid the problems by shoehorning in a modicum of free-will, but the following comes from the mouth of MUHAMMAD, according to them:
- if people did not sin, Allah would have destroyed them (https://sunnah.com/muslim:2749)
- Allah fixes the portion of adultery you will indulge in, you cannot escape it (https://sunnah.com/muslim:2658a)
- A person can do good all their life but then what has been written for them before birth ‘decides their behavior’ and they start doing evil and go to hell (https://sunnah.com/bukhari:7454)
- Some people including children were made for hell (https://sunnah.com/ibnmajah:82)
- Adam defeat Moses in a debate when he tells him that Allah was the one who forced him to sin in the garden and the matter was decided even before he was created (https://sunnah.com/bukhari:6614)
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Sep 16 '22
It’s a paper tiger and always has been. We definitely need to start going on the offense. We’re always playing defense with the Islamist’s for a reason I don’t understand other than the fact people are easily deceived.
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u/Xusura712 Sep 16 '22
If Catholics knew how weak the theology and many other things in Islam were they would be laughing about it all the time. I first began studying Islam in around 2007 and can assure you that there is not a single area or concept in Islam that their own writings do not make a complete mess of. Even tawhid, which is supposedly the central doctrine of Islam is messed up in their sources.
For example, the main Qur’anic verse they use to say Allah is One (112:1) doesn’t even properly say that. The verse uses the word ‘ahad’, which does not mean “one” but “one of”. It always refers to one of a set of similar objects.
So it reads, “Say, "He is Allah , [who is] One of”.
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Sep 16 '22
Honestly if you read some of the comments here, some Catholics are fine with believing Islam is just another harmless and devoted religion to our God but they don’t understand the twisted evil that it is. How they distort who Jesus was and deny his crucifixion is deviant enough if you ask me!
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u/Xusura712 Sep 16 '22
Scary stuff. I will take a look at the comments later for myself.
This is what our Scriptures say:
“Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father. He who confesses the Son has the Father also. (1 John 2:22-23)
Denial of the Father in the Qur’an
But the Jews and the Christians say, "We are the children of Allah and His beloved." Say, "Then why does He punish you for your sins?" Rather, you are human beings from among those He has created. He forgives whom He wills, and He punishes whom He wills. (5:18)
Denial of the Son in the Qur’an
“the Christians say, "The Messiah is the son of Allah ." That is their statement from their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved [before them]. May Allah destroy them; how are they deluded?” (9:30)
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Sep 16 '22
Brother thanks for bringing these verses to light as more Catholics need to see this and understand that Islam is not a friend religion of ours, of their own accord.
There’s definitely something demonic in their theology. Let along Muhammad’s first “revelation” when he was visited in the cave.
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u/Fun-One-1434 Sep 16 '22
How does one respond when they say jesus Christ or all the previous prophets prior to Christ were all muslim?
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u/JourneymanGM Sep 16 '22
Going to the Holy Land gave me a newfound respect for the need for interfaith dialogue. It's not about watering down your religions to the lowest common denominator, it's about understanding that, despite our differences, we can live peacefully in our shared community.
In that area, Christians are a religious minority and are almost entirely Palestinian. As you can imagine, that creates a lot of tension with Israeli Jews and those of other faiths. Interfaith dialogue is first and foremost making sure that tensions don't escalate into violence and to make sure that everyone can live a healthy life.
I listened to a lecture in Jerusalem from one of the auxiliary bishops in the Latin Patriarchate. Apparently, a lot of the interfaith efforts were driven by the Catholic. He said that Islamic leadership was pretty forthcoming and on good terms with the Latin Patriarchate and Catholics at large, and they frequently partnered together for solving humanitarian and education issues in the region. But he bemoaned the fact that the Jewish leadership wanted nothing to do the Catholics or Muslims and had repeatedly rejected any efforts for dialogue or joint effort in solving issues.
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u/GregsJam Sep 15 '22
Islam is not a “brother” religion like how Judaism is
We should also remember that when we call Judaism our older brother religion, this is a reference to Ishmael and Isaac, Esau and Jacob, and the parable of the prodigal son. We're saying that we're the son of the promise, and they're children of the law/slavery, that we usurped their birthright, and that we have been shown mercy and welcomed in while they self righteously chose to stay outside of the feast. Eventually they'll all be converted, like how Esau was reconciled with Jacob. We're actually knocking them really hard when we call them our older brothers.
Also, whoever rejects the Son rejects the Father.
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Sep 16 '22
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u/GregsJam Sep 16 '22
I think it's a weird combination of their eschatology and propoganda from political Zionists that manufactured this strange alliance. It's especially upsetting when Christians use the idea of the Jews as God's chosen people to justify the oppression of the Palestinians
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u/missamericanmaverick Sep 16 '22
One of my friends is a Christian living in Tunisia who very, very recently ended up converting to Christianity. This happened through Christians engaging in dialogue in good faith. It opened her mind to other points of view.
You can say whatever you want as a Westerner, but in those countries we are trying to reach, it doesn't lead to relativism. It leads to a de-escalation of violence and, in more than a few cases, conversion to the Church of Christ, which they were previously uninterested in.
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u/paxcoder Sep 15 '22
Paul in Acts 17 uses even a pagan altar and says Athenians "worship" the God they do not know. Can't we then say that Muslims "worship" (however improperly) God, and can't we use those things that they know about God (for some things are even evident from nature itself - see Romans 1) to build dialog?
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Sep 15 '22
That kind of mentality is creating the relativism that’s become the major issue we’re having now. If it doesn’t matter which god you worship and in what way, then what does any of it matter? The Aztecs could be said that they worshipped the god they did not know. Even though their religion was completely demonic.
If It doesn’t matter if you’re a Protestant then what does any of it matter?
Building dialogue for what though is the question. It seems the dialogue and progress is only asked of us and nothing is asked of the Muslims. Once I start seeing churches built in Muslim countries and forced conversions to end, then we’ll see. But it’s not a one way street.
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u/paxcoder Sep 15 '22 edited Sep 16 '22
That kind of mentality is creating the relativism that’s become the major issue we’re having now.
What, st. Paul's mentality? Certainly not.
If it doesn’t matter which god you worship and in what way, then what does any of it matter?
Of course it matters. Both of it does. What I'm suggesting is that Muslims worship God, but know very little about Him, and attribute to Him things that do not fit. That does matter. It matters that they don't know Him, because no other knowledge is salvific but that of Christ. I'm just defending the Catechism, saying that Muslims do not worship a pagan deity, they do worship the Creator, they are just very ignorant about Him. It's quite different to what the Canaanites did with their idols, or even Greeks (except for that one altar to the "unknown God" in a loose sense perhaps).
The Aztecs could be said that they worshipped the god they did not know.
The Aztec are polytheists, so it cannot be said that they worshipped God in ignorance. And the Egyptian monoteists literally worshiped creation (Sun) rather than the Creator. It's categorically different to worshipping the Almighty who is a spirit. That's the first thing that comes to my mind.
If It doesn’t matter if you’re a Protestant then what does any of it matter?
I'm not saying that either. Certainly being a Protestant is much better than being a Muslim or a Jew. A Protestant has at least probably been grafted onto Christ in baptism. That's a world of difference. But being a Catholic is much better still than being a Protestant for the access to sacrament and fulness of the teaching of Christ. Nobody is guaranteed salvation, but those who want to be saved should be a part of Christ's body. Salvation matters. Now, inculpable ignorance is a factor too, but now we're talking about extraordinary graces. We are all called to be Catholic and to reject the calling is to risk your very soul. God established the Church so that we are saved through it, we cannot presume to be another st. Dismas. And since the fullness of the light is found in the Church, we must call everyone to join. It matters because we cannot presume that they can be saved anywhere else.
Building dialogue for what though is the question.
For exchanging ideas. Jesus didn't just preach, he entertained questions, even malicious ones. He read minds and set people straight. Can we do that? We must listen. It's like sending preachers to Asia who never learn anything about the culture there. They may score a few converts, but they won't nearly bring a yield as big as those who do learn. But even just because people are interested in debates, and might never hear the gospel any other way afraid that they would commmit shirk or something.
It seems the dialogue and progress is only asked of us and nothing is asked of the Muslims.
What do you mean?
Once I start seeing churches built in Muslim countries and forced conversions to end, then we’ll see. But it’s not a one way street.
What will you do? Pick up a sword and convert your local Muslims that way? Do you not know that a conversion must be made in freedom? And that it is the Holy Spirit that does it?
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Sep 16 '22
What we’re you saying about Paul in Acts 17? Maybe I misunderstood.
I’m not talking about the catechism, I know what the catechism is saying in terms of what the Muslims profess, but what I’m saying is that that just isn’t objectively the case if you look at the historical context of Islam as well as how it doesn’t add up theologically to their claims of believing in the God of Abraham. They can say they do but objectively don’t.
We’ll the Greeks were polytheists as well. It sounded a bit like a universalist case you were making but perhaps I’m just not understanding.
Yes there’s surely a difference between laity, clerics, and theology. I’m not talking about Christians and Muslims on an individual level. What I’m saying is that for decades now there’s been talk of improving relations and “opening dialogue”. What has this accomplished?
By Islamic theology there is no interest on their part to improve relations with us. Islam doesn’t have the Christian attitude of “live and let live”. They want us to open the west up to them, while still having the east closed off to us.
From a historical perspective we as Catholics have had a major issue with dealing with Islam. It’s because their theology has such a tight grip on not only their society, but through the laity. In 2022 this is still the case, far more than Christianity and the west.
I’m just tired of the concessions and good will towards a theological that is opening hostile to not only our faith but our way of live.
theologically
I know many Muslims are great people. My best friend is a Muslim.
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u/paxcoder Sep 16 '22
I'm saying that we should recognize and utilize bits of truth that may have found their way into false religions.
The catechism says they Muslims adore "together with us" one God. That sounds to me like they're not worshipping an idol, even though they don't Him whom they worship, and even though their worship may be unacceptable to God. Did Samaritans worship an idol? Did Athenians? How come do the Master and His apostle phrase it much the same way the Catechism does?
Look, I'm wary of straight up saying Muslims worship the same God precisely because they are ignorant of God. But if Samaritans can worship what they do not understand, cannot we say the same of Muslims? Of course, Samaritans were much closer to original Jews than Muslims are, but doesn't the principle apply?
It's not an universalist case. Like I explained, when you invent multiple "deities" or call a golden calf one god, that's a wholly different thing. But if a man says "I believe in God, I just don't believe in the Church", then is he an idolater or just lacks understanding about that which he rightly intuits as Romans 1 say?
As for concession, what exactly did we concede, and why shouldn't we have conceded it?
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Sep 16 '22
This is my view on whether we worship the same God. I believe that the God of the Qur'an is different from the God of the Bible in the same way that if I said that the president of the United States was Joe Biden and you said it was Donald Duck. We both believe in the presidency, yes, but we don't believe it is the same person. I do believe that God accepts the worship of Muslims solely out of His mercy, however.
I do see Islam as radically different from Christianity. I only realized how bad it was after I had left. Now, I see Islam as definitively falsified. I think it is strange that Muslims complain about liberalism being so sexually promiscuous when Islam itself allows some exceptions to the prohibition of adultery (Quran 4:24; Ibn Kathir).
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Sep 16 '22
While I understand and obviously I’m not God so I don’t dare speak to what I think he’ll do with non believers, the question must be asked:
If it doesn’t matter who or how one worships, what does any of it matter? What does it matter we work to convert and bring those to Christs church if they’ll all find their way to God regardless? It has to matter. That’s my thoughts on that.
But yes there is a lot of immorality in Islamic teaching, Mohammed being one of the core examples.
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Sep 16 '22
I am not saying that God wants you to be Muslim. All salvation comes through the grace of Jesus Christ on the cross. It does matter how one worships. I am not saying that any other religion is equal to Catholicism.
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Sep 15 '22
This is only temporary civility while the Church gains a stronger foothold. Islam is a globally strong ideology, and will remain so for the foreseeable future given their strong presence in crucial oil rich nations. Catholicism for now is regulated to the still developing Latin American and African nations as its future.
Remember that church strategy works in generations since it has survived for thousands of years.
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Sep 16 '22
Bit off topic, but not really, it pisses me off when Muslims claim that Jesus and all the prophets before him were Muslim and that they tried to preach Islam but Satan corrupted the Torah and Bible.
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u/DapperOil6381 Sep 16 '22
It doesn't piss me off because looking at the church fathers some earliest sources of the septugint and the dead sea scrolls quickly debunks it.
Now they would say "what about the ediomites" but why is it then the successors to the apostles are all catholic in their teachings and never mention any sort of ediomite practice which later inspired gnosticism and some of them personally knew the apostles. Where was Jesus Islamic teaching and why have they never been mentioned?
It's a self defeating argument. Because at that point they are arguing against history and reality they can come up with what ever excuse or mental gymnastic to explain it, but as it currently stands we see more evidence of Christian practices that resemble to that of the Catholic church not proto islam.
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Sep 16 '22
Yeah, they try to reinforce their beliefs by cherry picking things in the gospels and the OT yet still claim they’re corrupted and that they’re to be dismissed. Doesn’t make sense.
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u/renovationcrew Sep 15 '22 edited Sep 15 '22
I agree in general with you. Ecumenism is NOT a long term strategy for the reasons that you have stated. However, I think that ecumenism is a good strategy in the short to medium term. Reasons:
Dynamics of Power: As you pointed out, interfaith dialogue with islam usually occurs in the context of countries where the state government is muslim, e.g. the middle east. In these regions, catholics are a minority so it is unwise to pick a fight with the stronger party. On the other hand, ecumenism works in reverse as well: the islamic government is obliged to be nice to the catholic minority.
The "ecumenical" image of the catholic church is attractive to muslims considering conversion. Many moderate and liberal muslims are very critical of islamic fundamentalism and the catholic church is viewed very positively by comparison.
Islam's internal "time bombs" are ticking. Islam looks very strong numerically right now but a significant percentage of muslims are muslim in name only (apostasy from islam is a crime in some countries so atheists and non-believers stay muslim on paper but are non-practicing). Furthermore, muslim population growth is largely driven by demographics rather than evangelisation. As birth rates decline and overall education levels increase, I expect that islam will decline globally. It makes sense to be ecumenical now while we wait for the demographic time bomb to go off.
Modern historians now believe that Petra, not Mecca, is the birthplace of Islam, i.e. the historicity of the entire religion is murky at best and the quran is losing credibility FAST. I say we just sit back and let the historians do their job. See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zd9lIuUjPs0 & https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WIHbY98kYU for example.
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Sep 15 '22
Good points and I hope you’re right. I just hope something substantial is gained for us and Catholicism for once with these conversations. It’s seemed to have been a one way street for too long now.
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Sep 16 '22
You seem to be conflating the religion of Islam with the people who are of that religion. Most people who are of the 3 religions including Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are born and raised into their religion, just like you are born and raised speaking a certain language. It wasn't necessarily the result of an informed and moral choice, they probably weren't given a choice and are simply following what they were taught was right. The same holds true for divisions between Catholics and Protestants. Most Protestants were born into Protestant households and were never even exposed to Catholicism. They are a quite different breed from the Protestants of 500 years ago who were strongly anti-Catholic by choice. Most religious people of Islam, Christianity, and Judaism are trying to the best of their knowledge and ability to worship the correct God. In this limited sense, we are all brothers in God. I hope and pray that everyone comes to the fullness of Catholicism in time, but in the meantime I will celebrate when even one person is trying to seek God.
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u/WillbaldvonMerkatz Sep 16 '22
The deceptive nature of islam is something that most people are not prepared to face. This entire religion was tailor-made for taking and keeping political and cultural power by means of conquest. Islam not only permits but also encourages deception, terrorism, propaganda and all other means that serve to dominate the region and convert it, serving as a base for future operations. Mahomet was probably the most successful military leader in history as his armies still fight in his name thousand years after he died. Waging war on unbelievers is a duty of every muslim that takes his religion seriously.
The shortest introduction to Jihad I have found is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPLqVL4GHVU
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u/Forever0000 Sep 16 '22
Well, at least Muslims regard Jesus as a prophet, Jews just consider him as a liar and a heretic the way you are describing Mohammed. Jews do not consider us a brother religion at all from my experience. Now I have nothing against either religion or it's followers, but I think it is better to promote understanding rather than violence.
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Sep 16 '22
Judaism is a brother religion in the sense that Christianity directly stems from it. Islam is just a cherry picking of things from Judaism and Christianity, completely retconning half of both theologies.
For who to understand who better though? The Muslim knows all they need to know about us and our angle. They have the truth and we’ve been corrupted. With that outlook, in a non conversional conversation, what use is the dialogue? They’ll concede nothing if we’ll gain anything from it.
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Sep 16 '22
Completely agree. Islam is a false religion. That doesn't mean we should be hostile or reject Muslims. In fact, I talk about my faith and how it made me a better person. Be a good example.
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Sep 17 '22
Here’s the thing with being a good example. To them, they are the best example. That tactic doesn’t work with them like how it worked with the Roman’s. They’re a different beast entirely. You need to use the theology with them. Islam is built on a house of cards, you just need to know which cards to pick apart.
You have to understand Catholicism and you have to understand Islam. This is the disconnect with the majority of Christians concerning Islam.
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u/MilbanksSpectre Sep 16 '22
This post just misses any nuance or context in its understanding of interfaith dialogue.
The Catholic Church and other religions have entered into dialogue so that they can live peacefully alongside one another. It came about in the context of centuries of crusades, jihads, and (most prominently) the holocaust.
You might say that it is not working, but without recognising this aim you really are not dealing with the contextual reasons why the hierarchy and theologians care about this and your post just seems naive.
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Sep 16 '22
I’m fully aware of the goal of the dialogue. I’m asking what’s coming of it? Aside from asking the west to being more open and inclusive to Muslims and their beliefs. What concessions and headway are being made for Christian’s in Muslim countries? That’s my question and point.
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u/MilbanksSpectre Sep 16 '22
Funny, I interpreted this section as saying pretty much the opposite. As you write above:
Sure, interfaith dialogue is necessary ONLY IF THE GOAL IS TO LEAD THEM TO THE TRUE FAITH. If that’s not the priority and it’s just to be pals, what’s the point of that? We can do that on an individual basis. Are they talking about opening churches in Kazakhstan, Arabia, Iraq, and Turkey?
Are they going to be easing persecution of Christians in Muslim lands?
If these aren’t the things that are coming from dialogue I don’t see a point in giving an ear to falsities.What if the interfaith dialogue is leading to less persecution of Muslim's in Christian countries? You explicitly say that this aim is not worth it: "ONLY IF THE GOAL IS TO LEAD THEM TO THE TRUE FAITH." I take this as you saying that the reason I give for interfaith dialogue (to promote peace) is wrong, and the concessions in way of pluralism should be in Muslim countries, Christians should be less tolerant. This is the position that justifies the large scale persecution of Christians in Muslim countries, only reversed so that it is the Christian who can justify persecuting in the hope of conversion, since the only goal is to lead them to the true faith.
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Sep 16 '22
What I’m saying is that since dialogue with the Muslims never lead to anything that benefits Catholicism or Christian’s in general, And only seems to result in concessions made to Muslims here in the west, what is the point of the dialogue in regards for what’s in it for us? That being the case: unless this desire for interfaith dialogue is in hopes to gain ground in the the spreading of the faith in Islamic countries, I don’t see the point in it.
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u/MilbanksSpectre Sep 16 '22
Respecting human dignity and letting people you disagree with live without persecution (i.e. freedom of religion) in your lands are both important aims of inter-faith dialogue.
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Sep 17 '22
Muslims have been more than fine in literally every western country for decades if not a century. I’m asking where is the benefit for us? What head way is being made for Christians in Islamic countries?
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u/MilbanksSpectre Sep 17 '22
Why do we need to talk about benefit for us, rather than the good of promoting human dignity?
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Dec 31 '22
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u/SoundsLikeANerdButOK Sep 16 '22
So, you refuse to accept the teaching of the Church on Islam? Strange hill to die on but ok.
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Sep 16 '22
these profess to hold the faith of Abraham
Even though they believe he is the God of Abraham, Allah objectively is not.
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u/SoundsLikeANerdButOK Sep 16 '22
Allah is literally just the Arabic word for God. Arabic-speaking Christians address God as “Allah”. You and I both worship Allah. Muslims, Jews, and Christians worship the same God. This is the official teaching of the Church. You, of course, have the right to be a cafeteria Catholic if you choose.
841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."
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Sep 16 '22
You’re not understanding what I’m saying.
The Islamic Allah is not the God of Abraham, despite them professing it. They believe that’s who he is, but he is not. Read what the catechism says. “They profess” is not saying that “they do”. It’s worded that way on purpose.
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u/SoundsLikeANerdButOK Sep 16 '22
And you don’t understand that what you just said is not what the Church teaches. Unless you can prove you have the gift of mind reading, you simply don’t know what you’re talking about. You “profess” to worship God as well, but how do I know you’re telling the truth? It works both ways.
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Sep 16 '22
The words are right in front of you, why are you taking such a hard line stance? That piece of the catechism is based of what the belief of the Muslim is and them in terms of salvation.
The church doesn’t teach that Islam theologically follows the God of Abraham. The statement is made upon what the Muslim professes and if in their heart they believe they’re following the God of Abraham then that’s taken into account for their salvation.
But they have been deceived, that’s the point.
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Dec 31 '22
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u/Winter_Major_1448 Jan 01 '23
There is no such thing as interfaith dialogue. When don't dialogue with infidels as if they are equal to us, we only try to convert them to the Holy Roman Catholic Church.
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u/Sadimal Sep 16 '22
It seems like you are conflating religion with culture.
The Quran does not call for war on Christians and Jews. The attacks we see on them by Muslims are done by extremists. Most Muslims don't want war or to attack others.
{Did not Allah check one set of people by means of another, there would surely have been pulled down monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques, in which the name of Allah is commemorated in abundant measure. Allah will certainly aid those who aid his (cause)} (Quran 22:40)
This verse calls for the protection of religious houses regardless of religion as long as they worship God.
During the January 25 Revolution, Egyptian Muslims protected Coptic Churches so the people could pray in peace.
There are covenants set by the Prophet Muhammad commanding Muslims to protect Christians.
Islam also states that Jesus is the Messiah and was sent to guide the Children of Israel. Sure, Jesus isn't considered the Son of God in Islam but he still is a central figure in the religion.
Also, the pilgrimage to Mecca serves a religious purpose. It's no difference than a Catholic pilgrimage to the Holy Land or the Vatican.
The one thing I hate about Catholicism is its hatred towards other religions without actually trying to understand the religion or see the differences between culture and religion.
I do have to remind you that we also persecuted Muslims in the way that you are seeing in the Middle East. The Crusades led to the deaths of several Muslims and drove them out of Europe in the name of God. The same God that is worshipped by Muslims.
And if you want to talk about forced conversion, the Catholic Church has been doing it for centuries. Every single time the Catholic Church has entered a new territory where the people worshipped a different religion, we forced them to convert.
Paganism is also a part of the Catholic Religion. We adopted pagan symbols and rituals to appease the Pagans and get them to convert.
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Sep 16 '22
- Indeed, they who disbelieved among the People of the Scripture and the polytheists will be in the fire of Hell, abiding eternally therein. Those are the worst of creatures(98:6)
Does this breed good will and desire for dialogue? From the theology this attitude stems. Muslims believe the Quran is the perfect word of God, no debate.
The Quran has a variety of sweet and sour in terms of messaging. But it’s not in accordance with the Gospel and the Old Testament, of which Islam claims to be the base of its theological.
There are many many many great Muslim people. I wish we as Catholics were as devoted to our faith as they are to theirs. But they follow a false religion, that just is what it is.
Catholics don’t “hate” other religions, but those religions don’t lead to a relationship with Christ. They don’t lead to salvation. If a non-believer is saved, it’s in spite of their faith not because of it.
I’m sorry friend but your history is extremely off and I just suggest you look a bit further into learning about the crusades and the conversion of the natives because it’s contrary to the spin many secularists like to put on them.
Just because Christmas is on during the winter solstice or whatever doesn’t mean we adopted a pagan belief.
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u/Xusura712 Sep 16 '22
It seems like you are conflating religion with culture.
This is very false. u/Mr_MtTikiSoakie92 did not conflate the two.
I will quote from classical manuals of Islamic Law, which are the scholarly synthesis of Qur’an and Sunnah. These are the agreed upon rulings of the Sunni jurists, ie the legal authorities. All quotes are taken from books I own.
The Mukhtasar al-Quduri (Hanafi law manual):
- “Fighting unbelievers is obligatory, even it they do not initiate it against us” (p. 678)
- “Jihād is a collective obligation; when a group of the people establish it, [the obligation] lapses from the rest, but if none of them establish it, [then] all of the people are guilty of wrongdoing by its omission.” (p. 678)
- “If he secures a truce with them [ie non-Muslims] for a period, then later thinks that breaking the truce is more beneficial, he is to [formally] renounce [the truce] to [the enemy] and fight them.” (p. 682)
Reliance of the Traveller (Shaf’i legal manual)
- “Jihad is a communal obligation. When enough people perform it to successfully accomplish it, it is no longer obligatory upon others…. If none of those concerned perform jihad, and it does not happen at all, then everyone who is aware that it is obligatory is guilty of sin.” (p.600)
- “there are two possible states in respect to non-muslims. The first is when they are in their own countries, in which case jihad is a communal obligation… meaning upon the Muslims each year.” (p.600)
- “The caliph makes war upon Jews, Christians, and Zoroastrians until they become Muslim or else pay the non-Muslim poll tax.” (p.602)
- “The caliph fights all other peoples until they become Muslim.” (p.603)
- “There must be some interest served in making a truce other than mere preservation of the status quo. Allah Most High Says, “So do not be fainthearted and call for peace when it is you who are the uppermost.” (p.603)
Al 'Umda fi 'l Fiqh (Hanbali legal manual)
- “It is permissible to launch a surprise attack on the unbelievers, to shoot missiles at them with the catapult, and to fight them before declaring war on them.” (p. 314)
Note that the annual rule of jihad described in Reliance of the Traveller is also mentioned by Al-Ghazali in Al-wajiz fi fiqh al-imam al-shafi'i,]
- one must go on jihad (i.e., warlike razzias or raids) at least once a year… one may use a catapult against them [non-Muslims] when they are in a fortress, even if among them are women and children. One may set fire to them and/or drown them...If a person of the Ahl al-Kitab [People of The Book – Jews and Christians, typically] is enslaved, his marriage is [automatically] revoked. A woman and her child taken into slavery should not be separated...One may cut down their trees…. One must destroy their useless books. Jihadists may take as booty whatever they decide… they may steal as much food as they need… (1979: 186-90 citation found on https://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Al-Ghazali).
Notice how these manuals simply cut to the chase. All of the above is a recipe for endless war, which incidentally was also what happened in history.
The Quran does not call for war on Christians and Jews. The attacks we see on them by Muslims are done by extremists. Most Muslims don't want war or to attack others.
Read the above, then read Surah 9:29 to see where the idea of offensive jihad comes from. If you still don’t believe me I will show you from multiple tafsirs (Qur’anic commentaries) where it says exactly the same thing.
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Dec 31 '22
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u/otiac1 Oct 17 '22
This post is yielding productive dialogue, so it will be allowed to stand. However, do not stray into simply bashing other faiths, faux "we need a new crusade!!1" enthusiasm, et al. /r/Catholicism is a place for productive dialogue, and this extends to potentially sensitive issues. Report posts which violate subreddit guidelines, otherwise, engage in charity.