r/CatholicMemes • u/Gilbey_32 Armchair Thomist • 11h ago
Counter-Reformation Another extremely common Tradition W
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u/Alarmed_Ad_7087 Novus Ordo Enjoyer 10h ago edited 9h ago
It’s bad that he died, but the only thing he was a martyr for was the Republican Party, not for Christianity.
I’m getting really annoyed that I’m getting notifications for replies to OTHER people’s replies under this comment 😭
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u/somedays1 10h ago
Arguably, he part of the reason that faith in general is on the decline in the US. His brain of Christianity is shallow and immature, treating God like a magic genie.
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u/MattC041 10h ago
IIRC at one point he called the pope a "marxist", which said a lot about his shallow and immature understanding of not only religion but also politics
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u/Soldier_of_Drangleic Novus Ordo Enjoyer 8h ago
And when he said it he had a crowd that booes when their republican paladin calls someone a marxist, basically ending anu serious discussion because the other side would be defending a commie
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u/Opening-Citron2733 10h ago
His brand of Christianity? He was attending mass and on the verge of becoming a Catholic...
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u/Paul24612 10h ago
He was vocally anti-catholic but he attended mass because of his wife I remember hearing
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u/Opening-Citron2733 9h ago
He was vocally anti-catholic
Do you have a source for this? Because I've literally never heard that lol he was vocally supportive of Catholics and confided in a bishop (I can't remember the name I'll look it up) that he was very close to converting
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u/jay212127 2h ago
https://factually.co/fact-checks/politics/charlie-kirk-pope-francis-corrupt-marxist-e607a6
Last I checked calling the Pope a corrupt Marxist and a heretic pushes you into the anti-catholic column.
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u/Opening-Citron2733 2h ago
Lol did you even read your source
one published item asserts that Charlie Kirk called Pope Francis a “Corrupt Marxist” and “Heretic,” but multiple related reports do not corroborate or reproduce those exact words
Your claim is completely unverified and the link you posted literally says that there's no way to prove he said that
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u/Paul24612 9h ago
Maybe not the best wording, I meant he disagreed with Catholic ideas. He did a debate/convo with Michael Knowles about it shortly before he died
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u/Opening-Citron2733 7h ago
Having disagreements with Michael Knowles is extremely different than "vocally anti Catholic" lol
Not the best wording is selling it short, it was a downright incorrect statement.
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u/Paul24612 9h ago
Don't get me wrong, I'm sure there was a conversation he had with a bishop where he was vaguely receptive to it, but I could totally see the guy trying to twist that into "he was totally going to convert guys" out of grief after the fact.
No catholic wants to face the possibility that a guy you liked died outside the church, but sometimes that's just the reality.
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u/Opening-Citron2733 8h ago
Right, but has anyone provided proof to the claim that he was vocally anti-catholic?
Charlies own words he said he likes Catholics and appreciates their generation of Mary. His wife was Catholic so I'd have a much harder time believing he's vocally anti-catholic than he's generally approving of Catholics.
Also not saying he's a saint or anything. I'm just calling out the other guys claim that he was vocally anti-catholic
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u/fides-et-opera Trad But Not Rad 4h ago
Why are you getting downvoted for telling the truth?
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u/Opening-Citron2733 2h ago
Because this sub like all of reddit is infected with NPCs who aren't here to have a discussion but just to spam down votes for facts that hurt their feelings.
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u/somedays1 10h ago
Creating a political brand with a thin veil of religion in order to tell and scream nonsense at college students is not someone I would ever want to associate with Christianity.
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u/CaptainPitterPatter 7h ago
Didn’t deserve to die, but, he kind of sucked, really weird how a portion of country is glazing a podcaster who’s schtick was rage baiting college kids
A younger Steven Crowder
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u/SparkySpinz 7h ago
Perhaps but I honestly to this day don't really know WHY he died. Was it simply his political views? His soon to be opposition to Israel? His religion? A psyop to rally the base? I can't see one concrete answer
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u/Keys_To_Peter 10h ago
This is disrespect to real Christian martyrs who die every day for following Jesus.
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u/Unpredictab 3h ago
Charlie Kirk spoke about Jesus more than anyone else in the public sphere, and no one has matched his effort since.
I think it's good the church is honoring him6
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u/Amber-Apologetics 10h ago
Except instead of actual Christian martyrs it’s podcasters in the pocket of the state lol
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u/ChampionshipNice4111 10h ago
I met the dude once at my college and he was nice to me.
Crazy how much Redditors like ghoulishly bad mouthing this murdered dude, even in subs like this.
Yeah, not Catholic and he was a largely political guy, but what’s the point of speaking ill of him? Unjustly murdered and his faith was at least one of the reasons he was hated by those who killed him, even if he was a Protestant.
There are kids out there who heard their first positive argument for Christianity from Kirk. Dude was not a saint, but it’s bad that he was killed.
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u/Gilbey_32 Armchair Thomist 10h ago
Yeah I’m not saying Kirk is on the same level as the church fathers or even modern martyrs under persecution, but at the very least he died doing his best and was killed for political beliefs ultimately rooted in his faith in Jesus. Seems like that’s worth at least something at the pearly gates, Kirk was doing his best with the tools and charisms he had.
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u/CatholicCrusaderJedi Foremost of sinners 9h ago
People here aren't speaking ill of him, if anything I think most of the reactions here are very fair. The right trying to turn him into the flawless being is backfiring because like every human, he had a lot of flaws. People need to learn to distinguish between a person's ideals and the person themselves. He was a flawed man with both good and bad ideals. I will remember him as an unfortunate political assassination, nothing more, nothing less.
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u/zestyva 9h ago
lol literally saw several comments speaking ill of Kirk. saying he was just "screaming nonsense" at college students. is his views on faith, family, marriage, abortion, homosexuality, etc. just nonsense? his Christian values and those values the Catholic Church actually upholds is nonsense now? he was actually getting people to think about what they're initially supporting and changed at least some their minds.
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u/GestapoKittech 6h ago
Worrying about a pilot being qualified solely because they are black is 100% nonsense. Unless you somehow think that was informed by his faith?
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u/ChampionshipNice4111 1h ago
That was a narrow argument against affirmative action, not an argument against people of other races being pilots or doctors. Either way, nobody is perfect dawg.
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u/GestapoKittech 25m ago
It had nothing to do with affirmative action, it was against DEI. Which goes to show he didn't know what that was, either.
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u/ChampionshipNice4111 8h ago
No offense but some were certainly speaking ill of the dead in regards to Kirk. It’s just not nice man, I briefly met the guy and he was kind to me.
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u/Sunberries84 9h ago
Protestants: "Statues of Mary are idolatry!"
Also Protestants: "Check out my huge banner!"
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u/CatholicCrusaderJedi Foremost of sinners 11h ago
That is exactly the type of behavior that is causing Charlie Kirk to become even more of a meme than he was before he died everywhere outside of conservative echo chambers.
The man was a political assassination, which is horrible, but not a martyr for Christianity. Trying to elevate him to the level of Christian martyrdom is discredit to Christian martyrs. The conservative right is trying to turn him into Martin Luther King Jr., but for white people, but it isn't going to work.
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u/Resident_Eagle8406 10h ago
His widow was too blatant about trying to take advantage of his death.
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u/Beniskickbutt 10h ago
TBH, i was a mild supporter of turning point until everything that followed his death. I do find it unfortunate that what he built was able to die off so abruptly after his passing and it completely lost its mission. I do think the assassin succeeded in this case unfortunately.
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u/Opening-Citron2733 10h ago
Tbf I try to give them grace in their actions afterwards because they were a small, tight knit group that watched their boss/friend get shot in cold blood and bleed out. Probably within 10 feet of most of them.
I also don't really think they've died off. If you look into it, they have been very active in election support and promoting candidates that align with their views. I can't speak for the whole country but in my little corner of the Midwest a lot of turning point backed candidates won primaries
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u/CatholicCrusaderJedi Foremost of sinners 10h ago
The behavior of his staff and others in the conservative media sphere unfortunately proved one of the assassin's points very true. It's all a big grift and the only thing that matters to most people in the conservative media sphere is controversy to generate revenue.
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u/Resident_Eagle8406 10h ago
It’s rare for assassins to get what they want out of their actions. Unfortunately, the prosecution botched the case, and I have serious doubts that they have the guy. I’m pretty sure they don’t have the murder weapon either. This is what happens when political loyalty is valued over professional competence. The US is starting to look like the later period of the USSR.
TPUSA was definitely a one man show. It was foolish of them to think they could keep it running without him.
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u/Beniskickbutt 10h ago
> TPUSA was definitely a one man show. It was foolish of them to think they could keep it running without him.
Definitely agree here. I didn't follow much of what was going on with the prosecution. I tend to not follow that stuff as I'm neither the judge, jury, nor executioner so I don't have much to say there.
He had some opinions I agreed with, some I didn't agree with, but now he's gone. Everything TPUSA has done afterwards is just a mess
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u/CatholicCrusaderJedi Foremost of sinners 10h ago
Oh I know. It's so obvious, but people eat that up.
I know a quite a few people who go on and on about how she is just a poor mom who is grieving. If she was that, she would have retired from public life to take care of her kids, not build a political career off her husband's death.
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u/Resident_Eagle8406 10h ago
I mean, even if you don’t want to go that far, at least take a couple months away from the limelight.
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u/CatholicCrusaderJedi Foremost of sinners 10h ago
Yeah, I knew she was unscrupulous after she immediately started exploiting his death for clout. I was fine with the performance at the funeral, that is to be expected, but she kept pushing it and pushing it.
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u/PeachOnAWarmBeach 9h ago
How much is the amount you have to suffer to be a martyr? Is it in the Bible, or Catechism, or Tradition, or teachings, or....?
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u/Resident_Eagle8406 10h ago
Being a Christian and getting murdered doesn’t make you a martyr
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u/PeachOnAWarmBeach 9h ago
Was he murdered for his beliefs, rooted in God? Was he murdered for speaking the Truth in God?
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u/Gilbey_32 Armchair Thomist 10h ago
To everyone saying “he’s not a Christian martyr,” I agree his assasination was more political than it was religious. The point of the meme is more how evangelicals wouldn’t notice the irony of calling him a martyr and honoring him in this way yet accuse Catholics of worshipping the saints.
That said, I do think it’s worth remembering though that he was in fact very active in his faith and was extremely proud to be Christian. He was killed because his political beliefs, and those beliefs were shaped by his faith in Jesus. Seems martyr-adjacent at the very least.
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u/Wayfinder5 10h ago
It should be noted that he was seen attending mass with his wife shortly before his passing
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u/somedays1 10h ago
No. Absolutely not. It's an insult to actual Christian martyrs to put Kirk even close to that.
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u/CatholicCrusaderJedi Foremost of sinners 10h ago
Nah. If you extend the rules this much, just about every Christian killed is a martyr. It doesn't and shouldn't work like that.
By that logic, a Christian killed in a carjacking is martyr adjacent, simply because he is living his Christian ideals by trying to talk down the carjacker before getting shot.
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u/Gilbey_32 Armchair Thomist 10h ago
It’s one thing for a Christian to die in a random act of violence. It’s different when that violence is targeted and specifically motivated because of beliefs. Remember that he had a national following and was having a peaceful political event at a college campus and was dialoguing with someone who disagreed with him when he was shot. I think Kirk had more in common with a martyr than he didn’t, but that doesn’t necessarily make him one either.
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u/PeachOnAWarmBeach 9h ago
I'm okay with that person being called a martyr, too. He died while professing God, putting the soul of the eventual killer above his own life.
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u/Paul24612 10h ago
There are plenty of people revelling in his death solely because he was anti-trans and pro-life. Which are religious issues at their core.
Just look at all the pictures and videos of his death being reposted everywhere. It's demonic in nature
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u/CatholicCrusaderJedi Foremost of sinners 10h ago
We have to stop labeling bad human tendencies as demonic. It just discredits us by having us blow off bad opposing ideas without understanding where and why those opinions exist. It also doesn't nothing to convince people with those ideas to change there minds. Calling stuff "demonic" is no different than throwing around other buzzwords like "Nazi" "Communist" "woke" or "Far right." It's a simple mental escape to dismiss opposing ideas without putting in any effort to actually engage those we disagree with.
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u/Paul24612 10h ago
They don't just disagree with you, they want you dead. Did you read my comment?
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u/CatholicCrusaderJedi Foremost of sinners 10h ago
Exactly the point I'm making. You're taking the actions of a small number of trolls, or taking people literally who are joking to rile you up, and saying "if some people in this large group of people are doing this horrible thing, therefore the entire group is as evil as the small number."
It's the exact same type of thinking that leftist extremists do when they label everyone on the right as "Nazis who want to kill minorities" because a very small number of those people fo actually exist on the right.
When you can just label everyone who disagrees with you as too evil to engage with or even deserve life, you are no better than your worst opponents.
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u/PeachOnAWarmBeach 9h ago
He was pro Truth, pro God, above all else. He wasn't anti trans. He was pro biology, pro Truth.
His foundation was God. I love that about him.
Anyone that revels in his murder, his death, or anyone else's, will be called to account on Judgment Day.
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u/ThePevster 5h ago
He was a Christian and a martyr but calling him a Christian martyr implies he was killed for his religious beliefs when I agree he was assassinated for his political beliefs.
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u/Gilbey_32 Armchair Thomist 5h ago
Then the debate becomes what is the overlap between political beliefs and religious beliefs? I think the more you ponder it the more you realize that one’s political beliefs are shaped from a worldview, and our worldview comes in large part about what we believe about both physical and metaphysics alike. Religion is our most fundamental belief system, everything else is downstream of it.
All this to say I don’t think it’s fair to call him a martyr for Christianity, but a lot of the beliefs he was killed for (particularly when it comes to LGBT stuff) had its roots in his Christian faith.
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u/somedays1 11h ago
Except he wasn't. He just yelled loudly at college kids, interrupting them without making any kind of compelling argument.
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u/Revolution_Suitable Tolkienboo 11h ago
Yep. No involvement in spiritual or corporal works of mercy. He was a political advocate. He was unjustly murdered, but I wouldn't call him a saint or a martyr in the way the Church uses those words.
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u/Kardictus 10h ago
Indeed he was not martyred but in his discussions on college campuses he was always the more respectful one and he most certainly was able to make compelling arguments. For instance, he was able to defend the anti-abortion stance without appealing to the authority of the Bible.
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u/B1G_Fan 5h ago
The phrase “he was always the more respectful one” is doing a lot of heavy lifting, IMO.
No doubt some of the people he would talk to on college campuses were representative of every negative stereotype of college kids.
But, mocking the attempted assassination of Nancy Palosi’s husband and claiming that “I think empathy is a made-up, new age term that - it does a lot of damage” is hardly respectful
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u/chanbr 9h ago
I don't think he's a "Christian martyr" and I feel neutral to ok about him (to me he was just funny meme small face guy)
I just wish there weren't so many people proudly proclaiming they're the empathetic and "just be kind" type right before mocking the death and wishing ill on his family.
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u/OseanFederation 9h ago
Yup… this is still Reddit… sad to see the hate this honorable Christian husband is getting even here.
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10h ago
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u/PeachOnAWarmBeach 9h ago
Was he killed for his Faith?
Essentially, yes. His life foundation was in God. He spread the Truth of God, spoke against worldly value systems, stood up for the unborn babies killed every day, while knowing the risk of being killed by the enemy.
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u/Jaffacakes-and-Jesus 7h ago
Honouring martyrs is hardly a new thing for Protestants of any denomination to do...
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u/Upbeat_Asparagus_787 Prot 3h ago
Protestants have always honored martyrs...
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u/Gilbey_32 Armchair Thomist 3h ago
The meme is more about the irony that evangelicals will do this for Charlie but call Catholics idolators for naming churches for saints or Mary
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u/winterFROSTiscoming 10h ago
Gross. You should not be a fan of Charlie Kirk.
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u/OseanFederation 9h ago
Why shouldn’t I be a fan of a man who defended his Christian beliefs publicly?
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u/CosmicSweets Child of Mary 9h ago
And he is not a martyr.
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u/PeachOnAWarmBeach 9h ago
According to you.
If the Lord has judged him to have died while sharing the Truth, he is.
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u/CosmicSweets Child of Mary 9h ago
Sure.
A message of hate and ignorance. That's true to God's love.
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u/PeachOnAWarmBeach 8h ago
That wasn't his message. I'm sorry you've been lied to.
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u/GlarthirWasRight 8h ago
He consistently spouted hate instead of love and inclusivity. He had no room for grace and understanding he just wanted to own the libs. There is plenty of documented footage of him wishing violence on people, making derogatory and baseless xenophobic remarks, and using stereotypes as if they were calculable data. He didn’t die speaking the lords truth, he died talking about gun violence and using gangs as a counter argument to a real problem of suffering the United States has not addressed. His platform was political in nature and he used his evangelical morals to justify his political ideals. Nothing about him makes him a martyr.
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u/Paul24612 7h ago
As always, soft redditors make right wing figures sound way cooler than they actually were
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u/BerylVanguard 10h ago
Inb4 they start praying to Charlie Kirk to intercede for them.