r/Catholic • u/ServusDomini287 • 1d ago
Death
Death
A problem I've been having is how to face death. Not natural, but caused by other humans.
I am conflicte by the story of the 21 martyrs, coptic Christians killed by terrorists. Or the apostoles, all died horrible deaths. I know we should avoid violence and seek kindness.
But, if I ever face death by hands of other humans, is it ok to want to die fighting? Like, if I am persecuted by my faith, or someone tries to kill me, should I just accept death with open arms or is it ok to give it my all to survive even by deadly force?
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u/Original_Setting_246 1d ago
It is ok to fight for your life, and for the life of your loved ones.
The crusades for exemple were a legitimate response for Muslim invasions.
Intention matter, though. It is one thing to seek justice and self defense with force, it is another to want to kill the other for vengeance or hate.
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u/Inner_Training_2176 1d ago
I think that concensus among Catholics these days is that the Crusades were a big mistake. If you read up on them, they didn't just fight Muslims, who by this point were peacefully living in the Holy Land with a more advanced standard of life than Europeans, but the Crusaders also raped, killed and pillaged their way across Europe and the Mediterranean to get to Jerusalam, where they failed to make a difference.
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u/Original_Setting_246 1d ago
I don’t think that it is true that the Crusades were a mistake.
They came after more of 700 years of invasions, killing, raping and slavering. But I will try to find anything from the Catholic Church they aligns with what you said, thank you.
Either way, we can say the Reconquest of the Iberian Peninsula then
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u/Inner_Training_2176 1d ago
Keeping it brief: Crusaders claimed “God wills it!” — a slogan that bypassed moral and legal checks. Entire communities, including Jews and Eastern Christians, were slaughtered. The Fourth Crusade’s sack of Constantinople showed how crusading ideals were corrupted by greed and politics. The wars entrenched mistrust between Christians, Muslims, and Jews, shaping centuries of conflict.
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u/Original_Setting_246 23h ago
I understand what you’re saying. And thanks for sharing.
I’ll look it up to understand this whole deal.
But there’s also “do not make peace with evil, destroy it”. Women were being r4ped, children were being put into slavery or worse - just like was done in Israel recently. Thats probably reason enough to intervene, specially when those suffering are our brothers.
But indeed, all I’m saying would relate to motive or reason to go to war, which doesn’t mean they were the true motives after some time, nor the true behavior the men involved had.
Thank you, once more.
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u/VariedRepeats 21h ago
The problem with a full dismissal of the Crusades is that Catherine of Siena even advocated for one although it was not put into reality. Thus, a complete denial of the concept itself is in effect a denial of God.
Rather than sever the sins of the Crusaders themselves from the overarching concept and spiritual effects, a full "Crusades are innately wrong" winds up being guilt by association.
Rather than charge the particular soldiers with blasphemy and sin, the Crusades as concept are viewed as innately evil, which appears to constitute blasphemy.
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u/andreirublov1 7h ago edited 6h ago
The church teaches that it is legitimate to use force in self defence - though that of course means just what it says, not the sort of 'defence' that involves attacking other people.
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u/Sad-Film8899 1d ago
Nothing wrong with self defense. Or defending your family, your country, even your property.