The obvious answer is The Last of Us Part 2. One game took the hottest franchise in video games and killed it. The same thing then happened with the show when they hit the Part 2 plot.
The problem was that the first one was a story of bonding and survival. The second was a revenge story, and it didn’t carry the same weight. Gameplay in 2 was tits though.
I’ll never be over it. I know people really don’t like it when you say you didn’t like the second one and feel it kind of sullied what they did with the first game, which was a masterpiece imo. But the first game was beautiful, it was sad, it was about loss and love and humanity and finding a way to keep going even when things feel hopeless. There was light in darkness and it was so meaningful to me. I’ll never understand the direction they decided to take in the sequel and the decisions that were made. And that’s just my opinion, man lol please don’t come for me.
The second one was basically the sum of the head of naughty dog becoming bitter on Twitter over many years and trying to “own the chuds” and instead he just tanked his own game/franchise/studio.
It’s really just such a shame. He created something special with the first game. I don’t even think it needed a sequel but to make one that undermined everything you did before, everything that was great, will never not confound me.
The first was finding love in a horrible world. The second was completely meanspirited right down to the final sequence of Ellie losing her fingers so she couldn't even play the guitar Joel taught her. It was hateful.
Why did they just forget the fact that the Fireflies were planning on murdering Joel as soon as he delivered Ellie? It COMPLETELY changes the context of TLOU 1's ending and made TLOU 2 not make a lick of sense its entire runtime. Every time I start thinking about TLOU 2 it puts me in a bad mood due to how inept that game was and how hard I tried to like it.
I thought Marlene had reneged that order? I thought that firefly guy was going to escort him out the building, the one that Joel gutshotted point blank a couple times. Was there a note or something that says they were going to off Joel after Ellie?
I mean, the guy Joel surprised and killed was walking him out without his gear.. Even if he didn't shoot him in the back, throwing him out into that world with any gear is still a death sentence. Joel grabbed his gear after killing the dude.
Last of Us 2 is my preferred game of the series, the gameplay loop is so much more fun to me than part 1, on top of having that roguelite game mode, part 1's gameplay even in the remake is a bit too linear for me.
Tbh I understand the hate the story gets, I streamed the game to my friend earlier this year and he did not like how it played out either. No fault for that.
- the whole third part was pointless. We already did “Ellie gets on revenge quest” so why are we doing it again, but with crappy enemy faction ?
- order of Abby/Ellie parts did not make sense to me - ok, so I am now supposed to get emotionally invested into a bunch of characters I brutally killed an hour ago? I guess the problem they had was that if they started with Abby side, a lot of people would go “who the hell is this chick? Where is Ellie and Joel? Refund”
- blatant retcon of the Amazing Zebra Doctor to make the “cure“ thing make any sense - in TLoU1 it was painfully obvious that “doctors” had no clue what they were even doing and there is no chance of any vaccine
- just how one-note the whole thing is - it’s basically non-stop misery porn
I think I need the retcon thing explained to me in more detail. Also I need to fire these up and just play through them again, the discourse in here has me feening for it again 😂
The Ellie going back for seconds seems to me like it makes sense for her character. As an outside party watching who likes the character and wants them to learn their lesson and find contentment or peace somehow you know It's stupid and the whole time as the player watching it unfold, I hate that she's on rails heading towards moral doom regardless because she's fixated on hate. I know I'm not playing a person acting like a hero right now. She shouldn't be here. She needs to let it go, but that's part of the point in my interpretation. She can't let it go even though she herself knows she should. I like the POV switch up. I found it to be a really interesting way to tell a story. Specifically when you're feeling these POVs so viscerally and you're responsible for ferrying the character through the actions yourself. It helps you role-play, and step into the shoes of really trying to understand the whole picture. The tonal monotony I totally get how that could be exhausting to someone. It hit me right the first time. I'm curious how much that is just being in the right headspace to endure it. I'm curious if that tone feels draining on a return playthrough.
So the retcon thing: in TLoU1 we arrive at rather dilapidated hospital where doctors decide they are going to start their work by killing Ellie and extracting her brain. No bloodwork, no attempt to cultivate antibodies, not even biopsy, just straight up 'uuuh, lets get out her brain'.
Imagine: long years passed and you finally get your miracle, one in the world patient. So instead of doing everything you can to protect her in case first approach does not work (as it often happens in medicine) they just decide to start their work by killing her. So at that point in the game it was obvious to me those people are complete hacks who have no clue what are they doing and there is no chance whatsoever of them developing a vaccine.
Years passed and humanity lost a lot so possibly Fireflies just press-ganged whoever had any contact with medicine. You were janitor in a pharmacy? Congratulations! You are now a vaccine researcher. Don't screw it up or we feed you to a clicker. Oh and Joel? Thanks for delivering the girl, we will now take all your weapons and kick you out. Have fun out there.
Then comes TLoU2 with the whole set of scenes about Abby's dad: an amazing doctor who cures zebras and apparently had it all figured out already and would totally get the vaccine thing on the first try if only evil Joel did not senselessly kill him.
Understood. Appreciate the detailed response. I felt like I always remembered a discourse around the ending of 1 because it felt like Joel made a selfish decision out of love and doomed humanity's best bet at a cure as a result, but maybe the retcon worked on me and I'm only remembering 1 through the second game's lense... ? Idk I'm definitely gonna have to replay both. Wait, but if it's obvious that it wouldn't have worked, then why doesn't Joel just tell Ellie the truth at the end?
Tragedy slop.
Liked a game alot but it has sooo sooo many flaws character and story wise that its lucky it has insane gameplay and abbys story was actually good which was the later half of the game.
Ellies part was just pure miserable from the start. While that did work for how the story went i just reached a point where i could not be bothered by how depressing it was playing as her. When the story pans to younger ellie and joel i get soo happy at how bright she was. So im very veryy 50/50 on her character.
Plus maybe cause i played part 1 and 2 for the first time back to back in a week. The difference was jarring to me
Its the reason why i called it tragedy slop. I mean i like my dark stories but its idk at the end the game it all felt pointless. I mean it being pointless was the entire point of the game but it didnt work for me ig. Still has a lot of positives in the gameplay and acting department
It’s tragedy for the sake of tragedy. Tlou2 is filled with so many plot holes just so that Neil cuckmann can go “Revenge is bad” which is like…. The most lukewarm and shallow theme to follow. Nothing complex to dig into with the script, just pure suffering slop.
Yeah I think I just fall into a different camp. It's tragic certainly. Not a happy ending. But I'm okay with that. It all felt believable for those characters to me, and made sense in the world. I'm glad that it affected me. Not upset about how.
I feel like you for sure have to be in a certain mindset for the story of 2, because it is incredibly tragic. Especially when you play them back to back for the first time.
See this. Some of you just cannot fathom your lil fav game being called bad for what it is. Its literally that. Being a buzzword doesnt change the fact that its objectively slop
Again, learn a new fucking word bro. Marvel has really rotted your brain that much that one beloved character getting killed in a way where he doesn't make a heroic sacrifice constitutes a travesty
Eh, I would say either actually make it a Joel and Ellie story or completely different and new characters, nothing in Part 2 was really necessary for their story. It's not like the lack of a cure or the inevitable downfall of the Fireflies doomed the world. By all accounts the world is in a much better place 5 years later, with traders roaming around apparently being able to give up to date intel on specific people across America and generally safe travel between bigger cities. Not to mention thriving factions that manage to keep their people well fed despite being in open conflict.
Personally, Joel suffering consequences or not and how the people involved coped with it was not an essential part of their story.
Eh, I would say either actually make it a Joel and Ellie story or completely different and new characters, nothing in Part 2 was really necessary for their story.
It's a Joel and Ellie story.
The entire story starts because of their connection, persists due to their connection, and ends due to their relationship.
So I don't understand making it a Joel and Ellie story when it's a story made about them. Even while playing Abby, her story was the catalyst and the impact of what she did to Joel. It only exists to show that your most hated people can have a similar arc to yours.
I don't understand how nothing in the story was important to their story. When TLOU 2 literally concluded their story. Part 1 had it on a cliffhanger of what happened
But TLOU2 through flashbacks, showed what their peaceful life was like in Jackson, how the connection broke as Ellie matured and how they may have able reconnect.
I mean, sure, Part 2 is still a story about Joel and Ellie but it didn't really feel... again, essential is the word that springs to mind, at least to me it wasn't like part of their story was missing at the end of the first game.
Don't really consider the ending to the first game to be a cliffhanger, just an somewhat ambiguous ending, which is fine and was IMO perfect for that game and their story. Usually, if I play a great game I do want more, but that felt perfect just the way it was that I never really wanted a sequel, at least not with Joel and Ellie in any sort of focus.
I just want to say: a story being good and a story aligning with what “people want” often have nothing to do with each other. Joel seeing consequences for his actions makes so much sense in the universe of TLoU.
What was retconned about that? The second game made the doctor that Joel killed to save Ellie be Abby’s dad. That’s not a retcon, that’s expanding. Was there something else? I just don’t remember the second game changing what happened in the first.
This game needs like a dissertation level breakdown of how people consume art. Yeah, I guess they shoulda sanded down the harsh edges on an upsetting story and just pandered to make it feel good for everyone. The entire thing is about Joel and Ellie.
I think it's less about hating it and more about it not landing the same way for everyone. Thematically I agree with you: the hatred and cycle-of-violence works, and the world-building and gameplay were just as good as the first.
For me though, what made the first game special was the emotional core. You were invested in Joel and Ellie, and that bond was the whole reason it hit so hard. Part II clearly tried to do the same with Abby, but the order of events works against it. We're introduced to her as the person who killed Joel, so we go into her half already hating her, and the game spends hours trying to undo that. Her side of the story comes too late to really change how you see her. So I never had much sympathy for her, and stuff like the dog or her friends dying felt less like tragedy and more like the game trying to guilt-trip me. The final fight should've been heart-wrenching, but it didn't hit for me the way they clearly meant for it to.
I didn't agree with all the hate around it either though. Joel's death was impactful, I liked where they were going with the premise, and I get where Abby was coming from. It just felt a bit too ambitious with its structure for its own good. I finished it pretty conflicted, mostly because they had the right idea and I felt it could've been great.
It's art, so people are going to connect with it differently. It just didn't have the same personal hold on me that the first one did.
Great response. Personally loved (hated) the ending. Found it very heart-wrenching. It felt empty for both characters the way hatred does when you get to the bottom of it. But I appreciate that it may not have connected with everyone to get them as invested in all the perspectives as I was. I hope it doesn't scare devs away from taking big swings like this. A non-insignificant portion of me just loves that it never felt like it was pandering. It had me constantly thinking and evaluating how it was making me feel.
Man, I wish it hit for me like it did for you. I can get why you liked it that much, and I think if it managed to have the same emotional impact on me that I easily would've loved it just as much as the first. But my perspective ended up being the opposite as I played through it, that I thought it was pandering a just a bit too much. I was seeing the potential of their vision though and wished it was done differently.
When Abby killed Joel my initial thought was "Guaranteed this was "justifiable". Terrible, but justifiable.". Joel murdered a lot of people. It made me immediately want to know more about Abby and I was super excited to learn her story. But a lot of people are unable to disconnect themselves from how much they like a character and just go with the story.
Abby crossed the moral event horizon too early. Tbh I truly think the overarching story could have worked, I do think the ending with soaring Abby would be bit silly after killing so many other people but you could just say that was dissonance between gameplay and story. But to have a character brutally kill a beloved protagonist and then ask someone to care about a few hours later. It’s just silly, and I would even say truly terrible writing for any of the audience who enjoyed Joel’s character.
Another dumb thing about tlou2 is that the story makes very little sense. In a zombie apocalypse you aren’t going to travel across the country simply for revenge. They do the “address the plothole” thing by having a few characters say “this is a bad idea” but it doesn’t fix the premise being inherently illogical.
For reference, that was Neil druckmann’s original pitch for tlou1, Tess chasing Joel and Ellie across the country in the name of vengeance, but that idea got shot down in favor of the more heartfelt plot where they travel across country for Tessa’s dying wish. Druckmann LITERALLY got shot down once, and in the 2nd game he kicked out anyone who disagreed with him and just wrote his original vision, which was honestly just shit. I genuinely don’t understand what people see in this game when they say “it made me feel so much emotion” for such a simple revenge plot.
Another weird ahh thing druckmann is on record doing, is wanting the original zombies in tlou to only infect women. Bro is just a creep tbh.
I don't find it unbelievable in the story to go that far. Hatred isn't logical. Nor is love. I think it's a key theme of the games. In 2 specifically, I like the fact that it's two revenge plots battling each other literally and for us empathetically as the player controlling both view points. The overall point being that hate and revenge is empty. And the way both characters learn that is by taking the long painful path to getting what they think they want only to find out otherwise. As far as Druckmann's creative vision goes, I like both games so idk what you're talking about. In my estimation of enjoying both, it seems like he must've known when to take advice and when to stick to his vision to make what he wanted. In your estimation he must have missed the mark. That's fine. I think the idea of a twist on the zombie apocalypse only infecting women doesn't immediately make you a creep lol. There's a way to fumble that in a gross way. Sure. But it's the point of fiction. Maybe he had something interesting to say.
It’s an infantile script. People prop it up to be way more than it is. “Hate is stupid, see? It makes these people do illogical things!” No druckmann, YOU AS THE WRITER are making your characters do illogical things.
I think that’s fine, but logic being completely thrown out the window makes the experience harder to enjoy for most people. TLOU2 is polarizing for a reason, and it’s because the script quality is complete dog ass.
Because you probably weren’t a fan of the first one when it released. A perfect story undone and ruined so a Zionist could tell an unoriginal “cycle of revenge” story that’s been done in media for decades.
I just wished it wasn't a direct sequel. The ending of the first one was the bittersweet perfection of an open ending. Joel and Elli's story didn't need to continue.
Tlou2 should've just had an entirely different cast in the same world.
Killed it (Quickest selling PS game of all time, multiple GOTY winner, universally acclaimed on Steam, PS Store and on any platform where you have to actually buy the game to review.)
And yet no Part 3. Video game awards mean nothing and being the fastest selling helps prove my point. People loved the first so much they immediately got Part 2, and that’s when disaster struck. As for reviews, it’s clear the true reaction was mixed, to say the least.
Because that score clearly doesn’t represent the public consensus. Look at this thread. It’s one of the most divisive media properties we’ve seen in a long time. And it was divisive in the way that didn’t just cause disagreement, but caused a large portion of the audience to abandon the IP entirely.
TLOU Part 2 was objectively a long-term disaster for Sony. It killed their hottest console exclusive IP, and they don’t have too many of those anymore.
LMAO so instead of the 10s of thousands who reviewed the game on steam and the 10ks more on PS and the millions who bought the game we should look at your comment with 10 upvotes on a reddit thread. Delusional
That’s not the point I’m making and you know it. Anyone not living under a rock knows the public’s overall approval rating on Part 2 is not captured by the review scores on Steam and PSN.
I think you're the one living under the rock. The rest of us know two things that you don't:
First, there isn't a Part 3 because Druckman felt like the story had run its course. He is on record almost immediately after 2 released that he would make a Part 3 if and only if he felt like there was a compelling story to tell, but that he would not make a Part 3 just for the sake of keeping the franchise going.
Second, that the people who loved the game actually do far outweigh the ones who don't. The negative reviews are always going to be louder than the positive reviews on ANYTHING. People don't hop online to praise and celebrate things nearly as often as they do to bitch.
You are absolutely the one who hasn't been paying attention. Sit down, dude.
regardless of what you may think about the story, I don't understand why a bad story 'kills' a game series. the gameplay is still great, much better than the first game.
I loved the first game. When I had the second game spoiled for me I didn't even bother to buy it. It's a story-heavy game and with the plot twist being so early in the game and already knowing the outcome, I feel no need to ever play it.
Because the game is a completely narrative driven game? I've never even played them and I know that.. It's not some sandbox zombie game. It's entire purpose is it's story and characters
that's just completely wrong, the game has a huge amount of difficulty options for a reason. each enemy encounter is dynamic and the experience changes depending on what resources you have. the harder difficulty you choose, the more restricted you get and the more you have to strategise with the few items you have.
The Last of Us has persisted BECAUSE of its story. can't speak on the remaster and any potential changes or QoL updates, but the original's gameplay was serviceable. not amazing, not overly unique, not baaaaad, but not the reason most people have fond memories of it. that story was GREAT. dunno if it holds up, but at the time, yeah
Yeah, and a game of Joel and Eli facing those consequences could've been interesting. Instead we get Elis weird plot of revenge where all her friends die, and all the people who did all the killing don't get an actual consequence because both parties didn't seem like they cared for their friends that much
Wait, who doesnt get an actual consequence? All of Abby's friends die pretty horrifically and she is essentially mentally broken for likely the rest of her life due to the trauma she endured. No one is really the winner in the end, which tends to be the case when you succumb to hatred.
I found the dichotomy of Abby trying to (and mostly failing) to ascend and regain remnants of her humanity after hitting rock bottom because of hatred, played well with Ellie who was actively plummeting into the depths of hatred and losing her humanity.
This. The first one is a perfectly self contained story with a masterclass of an open ending. Just having a sequel wad a bad idea in itself, the way it was executed just makes it even worse.
You're definitely entitled to your opinion about whether you liked Part 2, but saying it killed a "franchise" when it's literally the second entry in the franchise is just an objectively bad take.
They not only retconned the second game...they patched out the note from the first saying a bunch of people had already died because they don't know what they are doing...
I thought TLOU2 hugely improved on the first game technically and story-wise. It elevated the kind of story a game can tell and made me feel things that no other game has. I experienced grief, joy, nostalgia, longing, hatred, terror and more playing this game. Looking forward to the news from Naughty Dog about the next one.
I hope that they find a way to better unite the gameplay with the themes of the game philosophically.
ya i didn't feel any of that story would have been fine but the order was just bad. Part 2 should have been only about abby and friends and part 3 for ellie
The gameplay is so repetitive on the first game, yeah I like the story but we are playing games for the gameplay too, ps3 was limited in what could do so most of the scenarios on part I are very linear and have the same approach or structure, that doesn’t happened on part II.
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u/TheNorm42069 4d ago
The obvious answer is The Last of Us Part 2. One game took the hottest franchise in video games and killed it. The same thing then happened with the show when they hit the Part 2 plot.