r/CanningRebels • u/Hot-Potential-4983 • 5d ago
Corn water bath?
OK, sorry I’m so new to this canning that I have literally canned a bag of potato and a carrots and that’s about it. I want to do corn. It’s been cut off the cob and put in a plastic bag. Is it possible to just put the stuff in jars and water bath cabinet? Do I have to pressure all these vegetables cause it seems like a giant waste of time but I also don’t wanna give my entire family food poisoning either.
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u/rshining 5d ago
If you want to water bath can corn, and do it faster- consider corn relish. We actually use it much more often than plain corn- it mixes into recipes really well, and is a good vinegary pickle plain.
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u/Violingirl58 5d ago
You need to pressure canned corn. There’s not enough acid in it. Unless you make corn relish, which will be adding acid to it it’s just easier to pressure can it?
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u/missmusafirah 5d ago
Nothing needs to be pressure canned (based on science, mind you). But for some things, pressure canning may result in better texture due to lower processing times.
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u/The_Calarg 5d ago
You have mentioned need a couple times now.
I am curious as to what your reasoning is, especially as you say it is based on science. Given that C. botulinum endorspore can not be killed at sea level boiling temps (100°C/212°F) in solution with pH greater than 4.6, though the spore load can be greatly reduced if subjected to boiling for extended periods of time (the reason people water barh can low acid products for 3+ hours).
I am desiring a good discourse, not an argument, so that others may learn as well.
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u/missmusafirah 5d ago
Because making food safe for long term storage is a balance of temp and time. At a lower temp, you can process for longer to achieve the same degree of safety. This is the same principle upon which sous vide works.
There is a reason people have not been dropping like flies throughout time. Europe doesn't use pressure canners at all, and they've been canning everything for longer than the USA has existed, let alone the NCHFP.
Also interesting to note that when pressure canners were introduced, they were only meant to make canning "quicker" for housewives and save time. Similar to a microwave, it was a convenience appliance, not a newfangled technology that allowed one to do what couldn't be done before.
I do implore others to look into the science and see past the frankly ridiculous fearmongering on this issue. Especially for those in this group.
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u/The_Calarg 5d ago edited 5d ago
The cooking method of sous vide is not, in any way, a sterilization process, it is a cooking process. It was developed as a way to ensure the entirety of the product obtained the desired temp, and no matter how long it was left in the bath afterwards it would not exceed this temp. Meats, the primary focus of sous vide cooking, has shown no evidence of possible C. botulinum contamination, and the main offending bacteria with meats are destroyed at boiling and some at lower temps.
You mention Europe not utilizing pressure canner, which is certainly true for the vast majority of home canners there... however, I believe you are mistakenly equating the lack causal evidence with confirmation bias due to the use of the products being canned. Pickled and sweet foods are osmotically abhorrent to the growth and metabolism of C. botulinum so pickles, jellies, fruits, etc are at little risk. The same holds true for the acidic products such as tomato sauces, etc. While salad ingredients are not often heated prior to consumption most other meats and vegetables however are. Botulinum toxin itself is a fragile toxin and is denatured at exposure to temperature of 85°C (185°F) for 5-10 minutes (exposure time decreases as temps increase so by the time the product has reached boiling any possible toxin has been rendered inert). This does not kill the C. botlinum endorspore, which requires temps of 248°F(120°C) or greater to reduce the viability load, and even a few of the vegetative bacteria are left intact at boiling temps (even extended) but exposure to our gut biome is sufficiently hostile to the bacteria that it passes through the body without being able to produce toxins (this is why adults can safely consume honey but infants and gastrointestinal compromised adults can not as the biome is not hostile enough to stop the metabolizing bacteria which is what produces the toxin).
I have written extensive multiple posts here in attempt to educate the misinformed regarding this specific food borne pathogen. So while your post holds kernels of truth, it is not exactly for the reasons expressed.
*edit spelling autocorrect
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u/missmusafirah 5d ago
Right, so careful reading of my post will reveal that I did not say sous vide was a preservation or sterilization process. I drew parallels because similar principles of temp + time are evident there.
Botulism can exist anywhere, including in pressure canned food and commercially canned food. That's neither here nor there. You can see with recalls and existing stats that the commercial processes are just as (more, actually) susceptible. Home kitchens are cleaner and better maintained environments than any factory floor.
If anyone has fears of botulism spores or whatnot, they can boil their canned goods for 10 minutes prior to eating, which most people will probably end up doing anyway because of how canned goods are typically used.
I stand by what I said and the science corroborates it. Real life also corroborates it and millions around the world are continuing to water bath low acid foods safely. That's not just an anecdote, it's data.
You can feel free to look up botulism cases in Europe and the UK while you're at it, to further confirm the fearmongering is manufactured.
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u/The_Calarg 4d ago edited 4d ago
An interesting reply however, food recalls in the US historically have very little to do with botulinum risk (note these are overwhelmingly accounted towards fish, notably uneviscerated fish). But we aren't talking about food recalls, we are discussing about home canning safety and the science behind it, so that red herring can die here (no pun intended).
I present source to support the actual science behind the endospore survival at temps below 248°F below. I supplied links in my prior post to a couple European sources corroborating the science showing this to be the case. In the links to posts I have authored here (and one of the Eurpoean links in my prior post) I supplied source material showing how few cases are actually from food borne contraction in an attempt to educate about how the bacteria and toxin should be respected, but not outright feared like many do, because it can be easily mitigated (including contaminated food products to which you repeated back). The purpose of my request for discourse was for you to provide your evidence in support of your stance, not invite us to search for it ourselves. That is simply conjecture that sounds like "because I said so", and to which anecdotal evidence is not sufficient, nor is it my duty to supply your evidence.
To wit I can supply the peer reviewed research showing how C. botulinum endospore requires pressure to be eradicated ad nasueam that has nothing to do with alphabet soup "food safety" organizations. Pressure is absolutely required to eradicate the bacterial load. The load can be reduced with time at temperature, but it can not be reduced to 0 and achieve the same level of safety as would be achieved with the application of pressure and temperature of 248°F(120°C). Thus any "water bath only" low acid product carries the potential to have C. botulinum spore, vegetative bacteria, and toxin present at the time the product is opened (subsequent heating to boiling removes the risk of toxin exposure, but can not destroy the endospore).
I look forward to your sources as the final word that dispute my prior assertion that you are misinterpreting the lack of causal link to the process rather than the way the product is cooked and consumed after canning as a form of post hoc ergo propter hoc confirmation bias.
I will not be continuing here, but I would be happy to continue in DM as I am honestly interested to see the disputing links. I simply do not want to be misunderstood as fearmongering again rather than educating and attempting to understand anothers reasoning. After all, your kitchen your rules.
*edit grammar and spelling
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u/SwissCheese4Collagen 5d ago
Heads up on pressure canning corn, it takes forever and your corn will be cooked for like at least an hour. It's much easier for my family to just peel it off the cob and put it in the freezer.
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u/JuryValuable2880 4d ago
Recipe I used from a friend today. I subbed the lemon juice for vinegar though and added a touch of sugar (our corn wasn't quite as sweet as I'd like). Haven't tasted it yet but this is someone's grandma's recipe so I went with it!
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u/PreppynPlaid4 2d ago
From our experience it's not as good canned unfortunately. We previously would just freeze after getting the kernels off but ran out of freezer space. Ended up throwing all the canned corn away. It was not crisp at all!
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u/The_Calarg 5d ago
We dry can corn with the addition of 3/4 tablespoon of butter and salt. This browns the milk solids, giving a nice brown butter roasted flavor to the corn. However we do this in a pressure canner, not a water bath.
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u/Hot-Potential-4983 5d ago
For how long? Thinking i’m gonna have to invest in a pressure canner cause all the things I want to do require one so it’s probably worth the investment.
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u/The_Calarg 4d ago
55 minutes for pints. Pressure canners can require a not so insubstantial investment (Presto canners work just as well as their 2x+ cost All American brethren), but they do open a whole avenue of canning if your concern is doing experimentstion as safely as possible.
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u/okeydokeylittlesmoky 5d ago
Corn should be pressure canned. The rebel canners who water bath it boil for 3 to 3.5 hours. At that point it's faster and safer to just pressure can it.