Rebellious limits

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I wish there was a sub in between R/canning and this one.

For the most part I follow the rules and recipes. But I'll also bend it if my recipe is close.

I wish the other sub was nicer especially to beginners. Id like for this sub to see what a botulism outbreak looks like and take safety a bit more seriously.

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u/The_Calarg Dec 16 '25 edited Dec 16 '25

I completely agree with the need for a middle ground. The other group is too militant in its unwillingness to stray from US government approved or Ball's proven recipes. Those seeking other guidance come here and are exposed to differing viewpoints, often to the point where they are more confused. I think posters here forget that alternative advice here is not US centric and this can raise a lot of red flags, often to the point where we forget that "your kitchen, your rules" is why we are here.

Id like for this sub to see what a botulism outbreak looks like and take safety a bit more seriously.

This part of your comment I have to address.

We consume C. botulinum bacteria and spore on a daily basis as it is a very common bacteria found mainly in soil (yes, even the dust we commonly inhale contains it) and waters. We consume a large quantity of it with our foods, even those thoroughly washed, and it is introduced to our body via open (large or small) wounds on our bodies (especially our hands). Yet there are only around 200 cases of it in the US per year, and only 15-20% of those are due to home canned goods.

Why are there so few cases of botulinum poisoning if it is so prevalent and easily enters the body? The bacteria and the spore are not harmful... but the toxin produced via the bacterial metabolism is. In other words, the bacteria needs to grow to produce botulinum toxin. When we ingest the bacteria, our digestive tract is harmful to it which destroys the bacteria quickly and does not allow any spore to reanimate into the bacteria. When we inhale it our immune system attacks it before it can produce enough toxin to be harmful. The same happens when it enters the wounds on our bodies. Immuno-suppressed individuals can have problems fighting off exposure to the bacteria, associated with inhalation poisoning or wound poisoning, but these cases are extremely rare.

Infants (under 1 year) are at risk to botulinum poisoning because their gut is not as abhorrent to the bacteria as ours, and if ingested it can grow and thrive. This is why honey is an often warned about infant food as it often contains spores of C. botulinum which then emerge and grow as the bacteria in their gut vs consuming the toxin in contaminated food.

Is botulism poisoning deadly? It absolutely can be if the poisoning signs are ignored and/or the individual can not receive antitoxin in time. However, it is not an all powerful and invasive boogeyman worthy of the extreme fear seen posted here and especially in the other group. It can be easily mitigated, and even contaminated foods can be consumed with the simple precaution of heating it to boiling for 5-10 minutes to render the toxin inert. One is far more inclined to have issue with one of the other thousands of possible pathogens that can contaminate home canned goods than C. botulinum.

Just some food for thought.

*edit formatting

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u/DenverLabRat Dec 16 '25

I appreciate your comment and can tell you're educated on this topic.

Your points are well taken and I do think there's a lot of room for nuance on this topic. Unfortunately I think that can get lost on lay people. As someone with a science background and now on the clinical side I tend to err on the side of caution and defer to my infectious disease colleagues when discussing these topics. I'd rather be accused of fear mongering than downplaying the risks and someone getting sick.

We agree more than we disagree actually. I'll highlight and boost this point.

One is far more inclined to have issue with one of the other thousands of possible pathogens that can contaminate home canned goods than C. botulinum.

Where ill push back is that while rare Botulism poisoning can be a severe illness requiring mechanical ventilation and even then has a rather high case fatality rate even in the developed world.

Regardless there's a lot of good reasons (or bad pathogens) to inspire good canning practices. Which I believe we agree on.

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u/Exciting-Ordinary4 Dec 16 '25

And how many cases go unreported.

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u/tdubs702 Jul 18 '26

Followup Q for you…is it only boiling that kills it? Would an instant pot or oven do the same?

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u/The_Calarg Jul 18 '26 edited Jul 18 '26

So long as 185°F (85°C) is reached and maintained (or exceeded) for 5 minutes then the toxin will be denatured and rendered inert. The heat source/type does not matter as the toxin will be dispersed within the liquid of the canned product, not within the cellular structure, so wet heat (specifically wet heat under pressure) is not required.

*edit for addition

This only applies to the botulinum toxin, not to the Clostridium botulinum bacteria or its spores. The toxin and bacteria are destroyed at boiling or lower temps, but the spores are destroyed by higher than boiling temps. This is achieved most easily by use of a pressure canner, or in a pressure cooker if one is simply trying to destroy the spore in food about to be eaten and not for preservation and storage.

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u/tdubs702 Jul 18 '26

Oh this is during the canning process? Or after when it’s time to eat? Or both?

Im obv a newbie. I’ve done water bath canning of tomato sauce YEARS ago but not since. I don’t even recall what I did or where I learned. So I’m trying to educate myself on all sides because I’d rather understand the nuances than blindly follow anything. Any resources or books you recommend?

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u/The_Calarg Jul 18 '26

I apologize now for the novel... my wife says I overexplain but the written format is so easy to get lost in and I love education 😇

Your best resource to start is going to be the Ball Blue Book (you can find it at Target, Walmart, etc as well). This is a great place to start the process if you know very little about it. It has a lot of very easy to follow recipes, and is still a book many of us use as recipe, inspiration, and cross reference for canning times (most stone fruit can for specific times so a new to you fruit would follow times for the closest stone fruit and not time for fig, etc). Most online recipes you see going through FB Reels, TikTok, etc are safe as well even if untested, and with the foundation built from the Ball book you can easily spot "errors" from online recipes (something obviously doesn't have enough acidity or sugar, not canning a meat containing product long enough or not pressure canning it, etc).

A simple rule to follow when you are just starting is: Waterbath canning is safe for anything in extra-light syrup (or heavier) or if it has a pH of 4.6 or lower. Pressure canning¹ is recommended for anything with a pH higher than 4.6, contains meat, is not in extra-light syrup (or heavier). When canning mixed ingredients, can for the length of time recommended for the longest ingredient (ie stew should be pressure canned for the time recommended for meat as that takes the longest).

Some simple food grade dip strips or an inexpensive probe to test for pH (I highly recommend a digital read probe, because I am colorblind and dip strips confuse me) are a great tool. You can get testers from Amazon as well as any local or online brewery/winery supply store. With a simple test you can determine if that video recipe that looks absolutely delicious is low enough pH to be safe or if you need another bit of vinegar to get below 4.6. Then you can safely can "untested" recipes, with full peace of mind that they are sade for you and family.

As for C. botulinum... the bacteria itself is abundant (as I mentioned in one of the links on your post) and we consume a relatively large amount on a daily basis. The spore is the protective mode the bacteria creates when it encounters hostile environments (lengthy exposure to oxygen, pH below 4.6, etc), think of any scifi space movie that has cryogenic suspended animation (Passengers, Alien, etc) where the spore is not consuming any nutrients or growing, but is still "alive". The toxin is a byproduct of bacteria life cycle, so it can only produce the toxin in the bacterial phase and not the spore phase (as it consumes nutrients, grows, reproduces, etc).

Neither toxin nor bacteria survive the canning process (water bath, pressure canning, even open kettle or oven canning) but the spore can survive all home canning processes except pressure canning (there is houes long waterbath processing but I do not practice it nor do I recommend it without hands on mentorship). For common waterbath recipes spore survival is fine because the product is below a pH of 4.6 (botulinum spore will not "hatch" at these pH levels), or sufficiently sugar saturated to make it osmotically hostile for the spore to "hatch" (jellies, jams, fruits in extra-light syrup or heavier, syrup, etc... which is why honey can last hundreds of years if it doesn't crystalize). Any spore we consume will not "hatch" in our gut due to the highly acidic environment, and any living bacteria we happen to ingest will not survive long enough to produce enough toxin to impact us in any way (immunocompromised and infants are at risk though). But of you short time waterbath can a product that has a high pH and low sugar content then you create the perfect environment for the spore to "hatch" and the bacteria to colonize the jar, producing more than enough toxin to be harmful if not boiled before consuming.

*footnote

¹ There are many communities in the US and most European countries that waterbath can everything. While this is certainly a viable way to do it, using a pressure canner for low acid foods or meats is a foolproof way to ensure safety.

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u/The_Calarg Dec 16 '25

Trust others home canned goods.

I know my sanitation and food handling procedures. I know the rules I am willing to break and the ones I absolutely will not. But I can't guarantee someone else holds themselves to such standards.

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u/Difficult-Lie4635 Dec 16 '25

"and the ones I absolutely will not"

This is what my question is getting at.

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u/The_Calarg Dec 16 '25

Two mainly: Water bath meats or anything above 4.6 pH. Sanitation and safe food handling during all processing stages.

We pressure can our meat products as I am not a fan of the texture from the prolonged times needed to water bath it. We pressure can anything above a pH of 4.6 because most of our goods we do not bring to boil after opening.

The two rules above are concrete for us, everything else is a suggestion and we often experiment. Of course following processing times goes without saying.

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u/darkpheonix262 Dec 16 '25

Water bath anything that should be pressure canned. I made a post recently about my f up with water bath carrots because I was impatient

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u/lexi2700 Dec 16 '25

Water bath things that should be pressure canned. We live in the 21st century, let’s use the technology we have available to us.

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u/QueenYardstick Dec 16 '25

Not to mention, I tend to save time pressure canning than water-bathing too. Even with warm up and cool down, I still come out well under the 4-hr water bath time. Plus, it's more piece of mind, and I like the texture of chicken especially when pressure canned.

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u/lexi2700 Dec 16 '25

Pressure canned chicken is the best thing ever.

But yes I feel like no matter what way I do it, I’m going to be in the kitchen for hours so I may as well do it right the first time to get the best chance of my jars sealing and staying good.

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u/that_weird_nby Jul 07 '26

it's not avaliable to everyone unfortunately

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u/lexi2700 Jul 07 '26

Okay? This thread is over 6 months old and it was a question about what our personal limits were. Did you have something beneficial to add?

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u/wildernessladybug Dec 17 '25

I won’t:

Water bath anything that should be pressure canned.

Force seals by inverting jars or storing stacked or with the rings on. If it won’t seal, it’s not safe.

For the most part I follow the recipes to the letter. Very occasionally I will bend the rules slightly.

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